If this was just porn magazines, he would not lie because they are more socially accepted. I feel like this type of sexual stimulation and validation is still new but that in a decade or so we will consider this kind of common (especially in the younger generations where they are growing up chatting).
Online sexting/affairs have been going on for 15 years or more. You might think that they are something new. But they are not. You just do not understand the damage they can do to a marriage. The social ramifications of online relationships have been known for some time now. They are mentioned in something like 25% of all divorces these days.
I disagree about the younger generation. My children are D23, S23, S25. I have discussed with very topic with them and their friends. They have all engaged in some kind of online relationship, meeting people online, sexting, etc. So they understand it all too well. Their response to my questions about how they would react if they found their spouse/bf/gf was sexting or carrying on an online relationship was that the relationship was over. They would seek a divorce.
I do understand because I've been dealing with it for over 15 years. I have lost my husband largely because in the beginning I thought the way you do... I thought it was just a kind of interactive porn. That is until I found the secret emails and online accounts and found that that he had 10 women he was doing this with and some of them were willing to meet up with him and have quick encounters.
I also found out that he was so busy sending them things like e-cards and even real cards for Valentine’s Day that he forgot that he had a wife that would have loved something for Valentine’s Day.
How would you feel if your husband spent time every week going to a place where a lot of people mingle socially and he went around picking up on women, flirted with them and did a bit of sexual stuff with the women? Would you be ok? Now what is the difference between this and what he's doing online?
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Originally Posted by mountains
I want to just forget about it and let him do whatever it is he needs to do but I can't shake it Part of me feels like it is because I'm not good enough but I have seen that these ads were posted for a couple years before meeting me so it's obviously nothing to do with me.
You are starting to feel the damage that this sort of thing does. The fact is that you are not all he needs. Even as open minded as you are he wants something that does not include you. At the least they are him expressing this desire to have relationships and/or sexual encounters that exclude you.
What he is doing is already hurting you. And you have yet to find out if this is all he is doing. Until you put the key logger on the computer all you know is what you have seen. It could be the tip of the iceberg.
You are trying way to hard to be 'open minded'. Unless of course you are ok with an open marriage and your husband having sexual and emotional relationships with other women.
To you he's faithful, but he's missing something in your relationship and he's not talking to you about it. Which means he cannot be completely happy.
So what's he getting out of it?
This is what I am hoping to figure out with this post, so thanks for dialoging with me.
I don't think it's sexual at all. So to move past that...
He has some things going on in his life since before I met him. I have watched his happiness increase over time quite substantially but there are still some things that are being worked through. I want to make everything better, but I can't, not just at the drop of a hat. Things take time.
I want to know what it is he is getting from this so that I can work over time at helping him find it through other avenues. Whatever it is he will not admit it to me...either because he feels the actual act of these messages is wrong, or because he is not ready to talk to me about whatever emotional void is being filled or massaged by these interactions.
I'm really hoping a few men reply to give me a bit of insight into this, to share their personal experiences so I can relate what is appropriate to him. He's had a really rough few years on various fronts and I just want to be the support that he needs.
So why did you call your post "He has sexual chat with other women??"
Seriously. We ARE answering your question, you just don't want to hear it.
No...you don't understand what I meant. People can do things that are sexual but have the motivations NOT be sexual. That's what I mean. I don't think the motivation is sexual, it's just the most effective delivery method so to speak.
If you want to know if he thinks he is cheating on you... you go and do the same thing he's doing (or at least make it look like you are) and then after a while let him know you are doing it. Watch his reaction.
Okay, then would you say that "how" he is dealing with his issues (whatever they are) is not appropriate? That there might be a better way for him to deal with it? He's acting out, so to say.
You do say you want to help him with it, and help him find other avenues.
You are right, there is only so much you can do. I would honestly say that maybe he wants you to get mad about this.
Tell him it's unacceptable, and he needs to get help. But realise that he still might not turn to YOU for that help. Tell him he should seek counselling. It's unacceptable to you because he's not dealing with the "issue" that is driving him to do this.
I have a feeling if you told him you didn't like it, he might say something.
No...you don't understand what I meant. People can do things that are sexual but have the motivations NOT be sexual. That's what I mean. I don't think the motivation is sexual, it's just the most effective delivery method so to speak.
Seriously?? Wow.
Did you read Elegirls post??
Anyway, what YOU think doesn't matter - it's what HE thinks. HE thinks he's cheating on you (He IS cheating on you, even though you won't admit that to yourself, but whatever). Maybe once you realize that, the answers will come.
Without giving really specific details about him I can say that the situation we are in is a bit different. I am not discounting that eventually it could lead to something like that...definitely it could. But right now it is happening for some reason...low confidence, maybe, I don't know. And it is not specifically with one person, it's all over the map, he is not developing a relationship with anyone. He also has not waned in his devotion to me. Nothing has changed.
I am not discounting what you are saying though...you're right, I am feeling the beginnings of this damage.
But right now I am looking for ways to resolve this, not for more lists of signs he is cheating or more doomsday predictions of what it means for us. Right now I am looking for some ideas of what could be causing this because I understand him quite well and I have helped him through a lot and I feel like if I can understand at least partly what is going on here, I have a shot at helping him.
If this didn't stop eventually, and he continued to deny it, that is a real problem and maybe the relationship wouldn't last. We're not there right now. Right now we are somewhere that I can be an understanding, caring partner with knowledge of the bad stuff in his life that he is overcoming and I can be loving and supportive and slowly work through this as I have been as he works through other stuff.
The issue right now isn't whether his actions are right or wrong, the issue is: what could be causing this and where can we go from here. Blanket statements that it is because he wants to cheat are false, he was doing this before he met me when he had no one to cheat on. Perhaps it could lead to cheating later, but that's not the direct motivation and it's not where he is (yet?).
I can feel your anger and hurt and I really do thank you for sharing these warnings with me. I'm ready to move past my worst-case-scenario thinking (which I have been doing for the last 2 months) and instead move onto something more productive. To see if this is something that we can work on. If not, we may need to talk about the relationship ending but I've got a lot of energy left in me to work on it
And yes, I repeat, I do not think the motivations for this are sexual even if yes, one day, they could become that way. Right now this is giving him something different and I want to understand what it could be.
My male friend who I talked with about this told me that when he was with his ex (for 5 years) that he had very bad self confidence. He was scared he wasn't good enough for her and asking her over and over just made the insecurity worse. He would post ads on CL and talk with and flirt with strangers that way. Talking about hooking up, trading photos, etc. It boosted his self confidence, made him feel worthy. He said that he did it when he was feeling extremely insecure in his abilities in the relationship. He hid it from her because he felt it was wrong. This is just one example of a guy doing this type of thing with no intention of cheating, with it not being a sexual thing. But I'm sure there are reasons other than insecurity in the relationship and I'm interested in hearing them
deejov, ahh yes I believe it is an inappropriate or at least ineffective way to deal with it. 100% I brought it up twice...that first time and then again. He got very angry that I would't trust him, etc etc. It was obvious a gut reaction to "getting caught" but he completely denied it and continues to. I'm not going to bring it up again for a long time. I don't think he wants me to know or wants me to get mad about it. I think it's a private thing (he's a very private person) and that he is trying to work on it himself -- I think that is why he reacted so strongly.
One thing that he might be getting out of it is that on-line a person can be whoever they want to be. The online relationships are also free of pressures and obligations. These things are very attractive to many people.
I saw the web of untruths, or more accurately, half-truths, that my husband told the women he met on line. Like your husband it was several women and all strangers. It’s so easy to be who you want to be with a stranger. I only wish that he had been the man with me that he told all those women he was.
This might be a sign of several things in your husband.
He might be AD/HD. This is very common with men with that affliction. (My husband is).
He might have a problem with the pressures/responsibilities of a real life relationship. So this is an out for him to have some relationships that require very little from him.
He might have a self-esteem problem. So he can go online and be who he wants to be, not who he seems himself as being. It’s very easy to get a lot of stroking from online relationships. So now he can be the Don Juan, or knight in shining armor or whatever his image of the perfect him is.
Or he just might want sex with more people that do not include you.
If you are able to read his emails with the women, you might see a trend between all of them.
For example my husband was the knight in shining armor. He found women who had a hard time in their life and spent a lot of time talking to them, giving them support emotionally. This is something none of them got from their real life relationships. And in turn the women gushed all over him about what a wonderful man he was, yada yada yada. He would tell these women that their husbands were mistreating them by not helping out at home, by ignoring their pleas for an emotional connection, etc etc… all the while he was doing worse at home then their husbands where. But he could talk a good line and be the good guy in his own mind without putting out any real effort.
Elegirl, thanks for all this insight. I have seen conversations and they are sexual fantasies only. No personal talk at all. There have been themes on the talks but when we talk about sexual fantasies (our own) I have a few times brought up ones that are similar and he really honestly doesn't seem interested -- I mean we're naked and he gets hard with some talk and not others. I'm not going to detail the fantasies but they definitely lean towards validation / self confidence type stuff where he is desired.
I'm also curious if you could expand on the ADHD thing. He has Generalized Anxiety.
Anyway, I guess what I really want to know most of all is if guys that do this still love their partners. I mean, like if there is a reason outside of me not being good enough, that he could be doing this. A reason outside of me completely. I have insecurity sometimes and I work really really hard on it because it's always been an issue in all relationships for me (including friendships and coworkers) so this is really hard for me. Since it is so personal I have only talked to that one friend about it so I don't have my usual network of male friends to go to this time around. -- which is why I was looking for replies from guys. I've got a pretty strong group of friends and I'm not used to talking to ONLY one of them about something.
You are absolutely right that sex is most likely not the motivation with your husband. It’s something else, something within himself that he is having issues with. Most affairs are not about sex. They are about a person looking for something that they are not getting within their marriage or to deal with personal issues. The affairs, online or offline, are usually a misplaced attempt to seek out a ‘cure’ for the issues.
It is a reasonable approach to look for what is driving him and try to help him resolve that or find a healthier outlet for his emotional needs. It’s one of the many approaches I took with my husband (I’m calling him my husband but we are divorced. However he’s still living in my house. He will not leave and I have not gotten mean yet to kick him out.)
After years of pursuing this with my husband I know so much more about him and what makes him tick. I even took him to doctors, counselors and psychiatrists. He got on meds, off meds, etc. etc. Nothing has fixed the issue. He still has his online sex life. He eventually abandoned our real-life sex life for the online one. I am as open about sex as you are. I’m very HD so there was no shortage of good hot sex in our life. But the sex life ended by his choice. The more I tried to help him find what was wrong.. I think the more our relationship became mother and 15 year old naughty teen. And that is where we are stuck. I divorced him because he’s no longer being a husband to me.
If you are going to take the approach to help him be careful how you do this. In retrospect it would have been better for me, and defiantly better for his mental health, if I had drawn a hard line and told him to stop the online nonsense and go get help with his mental health issues on his own. If I failed, that is where I failed… in being too ‘understanding’ and trying too hard to help him. I believe that’s called enabling and being co-dependent.
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Originally Posted by mountains
But right now I am looking for ways to resolve this, not for more lists of signs he is cheating or more doomsday predictions of what it means for us. Right now I am looking for some ideas of what could be causing this because I understand him quite well and I have helped him through a lot and I feel like if I can understand at least partly what is going on here, I have a shot at helping him.
The point about my encouraging you to look for more things that might be going on is that you cannot solve a problem if you do not know the full extent of that problem. If you spend your energy on “y” and it never quite gets solved, it might be because the problem is “xy”. But since you did not know about “x” you will never get to the bottom of things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountains
If this didn't stop eventually, and he continued to deny it, that is a real problem and maybe the relationship wouldn't last. We're not there right now. Right now we are somewhere that I can be an understanding, caring partner with knowledge of the bad stuff in his life that he is overcoming and I can be loving and supportive and slowly work through this as I have been as he works through other stuff.
This is reasonable. And it’s a very different message than the one you originally gave which was that you do not care if he has online relationships/sexting. You do care but you want to understand and see if there is as way to help him get beyond this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountains
The issue right now isn't whether his actions are right or wrong, the issue is: what could be causing this and where can we go from here. Blanket statements that it is because he wants to cheat are false, he was doing this before he met me when he had no one to cheat on. Perhaps it could lead to cheating later, but that's not the direct motivation and it's not where he is (yet?).
His doing it now is very different from him doing it before you met him. I understand your desire to look for the root cause and to try to work with him to solve it. But he is working very hard to hide a part of himself from you. And it involves sex with other people. Hence he is making a choice to cheat on you and lie to you on some level. It’s a conscious choice. This is something that you have got to understand to put things in perspective.
One thing to remember is that behavioral therapy/counseling is the most affective form of therapy. Psychiatric therapy has largely failed…to spend ones time mulling over root causes usually does not fix anything… it just makes the person constantly wallow in the root cause. With a behavioral approach a person decides what the end result is that they want and they start behaving in that manner. After about 3 weeks of consistent behavioral changes the root causes usually no longer matter. And any root causes that do matter will come to the surface in a way that they can be handled.
I have read as advice for overweight people… “If you want to find out what is eating you, stop eating”. In other words a person who eats to calm their emotions will have to face their daemons if they stop over eating.
If you want to see what is bugging your husband, get him to stop doing what he’s doing. His actions are a release valve for your marriage. Like the steam vent on a crock pot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountains
I can feel your anger and hurt and I really do thank you for sharing these warnings with me. I'm ready to move past my worst-case-scenario thinking (which I have been doing for the last 2 months) and instead move onto something more productive. To see if this is something that we can work on. If not, we may need to talk about the relationship ending but I've got a lot of energy left in me to work on it
I am trying to be more than a doomsday profit here. My first posts were in response to yours that made it seem like you did not get the depth of damage this can do to your marriage. But now as you write more it’s clear that you do get it. I hope you can get to the bottom of this and he settles his own issues. Your marriage will be much stronger if you do because the two of you will have a much deeper understanding of each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountains
And yes, I repeat, I do not think the motivations for this are sexual even if yes, one day, they could become that way. Right now this is giving him something different and I want to understand what it could be.
Again, sex is seldom the motivation. Like you I’m very computer savvy so I was able to get most of my husband’s past emails, chats, etc. going back a long time. I saw how his relationships evolved. In every one of them they started out as him being the supportive shoulder to these women. He used to have as many as 5 chat windows open at a time carrying on 5 chats simultaneously (did I mention his ADD, lol). In every single case it was the woman who started the sexual relationship. And in every case he pretended to be reluctant and shy about it. He does not have a shy bone in his body so I know he was pretending.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountains
My male friend who I talked with about this told me that when he was with his ex (for 5 years) that he had very bad self confidence. He was scared he wasn't good enough for her and asking her over and over just made the insecurity worse. He would post ads on CL and talk with and flirt with strangers that way. Talking about hooking up, trading photos, etc. It boosted his self confidence, made him feel worthy. He said that he did it when he was feeling extremely insecure in his abilities in the relationship. He hid it from her because he felt it was wrong. This is just one example of a guy doing this type of thing with no intention of cheating, with it not being a sexual thing. But I'm sure there are reasons other than insecurity in the relationship and I'm interested in hearing them
Yep, it’s seldom about getting off sexually. Infidelity is about a person going outside of the marriage to get their needs met. Your friend did that. He could have chosen to go to counseling.
He could have chosen to let his wife know what he needed and in the best of all possible worlds she would have bent over backwards to meet them. But this is not the best of all possible worlds. And often one’s spouse does not bend over backwards to meet our needs… instead as we seen in these forums, many spouses are either incapable or refuse to meet the other’s needs.
Then there are spouses who never share their needs with the spouses… your husband is doing this… he has not come to you and told you what is eating him and why he’s going on line. In a healthy marriage he would tell you. But first he needs to know what is eating him. I don’t think he knows…. Instead he acts out online and that acting out somehow creates brain chemistry changes that calm him down or make him feel that the need is met.
You might be interested in some books written by Dr. Harley. His theory is that the root of most infidel is unmet needs. I have links to 3 of his books below for building a passionate marriage (no not misread ‘passion’ to mean only sexual) . The book of the 3 that might be the most interesting to you right now is “His Needs, Her Needs”. There is another by him that might give you some insight, “Surviving an Affair”. His work is mostly about how to affair proof a marriage by find out and meeting each other needs.
Elegirl, that was a great reply! Very thorough and you gave me a lot to think about.
When I say I don't care if he chats online I mean it...but with some stipulations that I didn't mention. If he is chatting ongoing with the same person(s) and developing something that would definitely be a problem. Mostly it is the lying that bugs me. In fact, if he told me that he is bisexual and he really needs to have sex with a man every few months or something that out of left field I would be okay with that. I don't consider these kinds of things cheating if there is open discussion about them. The lying though...ugh!
I've got lots to think about, thanks again for all that. <3
Anyway, I guess what I really want to know most of all is if guys that do this still love their partners.
You ask about guys who do this… remember that not only guys do it. Just as many women do.
Not everyone who does this still loves their partner. Some do.
But they do not trust their partner enough to tell their partner their own personal issues.
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Originally Posted by mountains
I mean, like if there is a reason outside of me not being good enough, that he could be doing this. A reason outside of me completely. I have insecurity sometimes and I work really really hard on it because it's always been an issue in all relationships for me (including friendships and coworkers) so this is really hard for me. Since it is so personal I have only talked to that one friend about it so I don't have my usual network of male friends to go to this time around. -- which is why I was looking for replies from guys. I've got a pretty strong group of friends and I'm not used to talking to ONLY one of them about something.
The issue is not good enough. There is no perfect person in this world. We are all flawed. If you are willing to hear your partner out on his needs and work towards filling the reasonable ones then you are as good as anyone can be.
The issue here is that your husband is not sharing with you all of his problems and needs. He is not even giving you the opportunity to meet all of his needs.
Part of this might be that there are needs he has that he knows you can never meet, for example if he needs to have encounters (sexting) with other women so that he can experience sexual pleasure that has not pressure to stratify a partner… you cannot meet that need by definition.
In a marriage, there is an obligation to tell one’s spouse what we need. If we do not, we cannot hold that person responsible for not meeting our needs.
We see this all the time on these forums.. a wife/husband who has an affair because their needs were not met. Yet the WS has never articulated to the BS about the unmet needs and how the BS can fill them. In these cases the BS is not responsible for not meeting needs they never even knew existed.
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Re: He has sexual chat with other women 
Part of me feels like it is because I'm not good enough but I have seen that these ads were posted for a couple years before meeting me so it's obviously nothing to do with me.
