Can anyone out there share any perspective on the impact of counselling to make the relationship feel right? I spent years distant and neglecting my wife then entered therapy six months ago as the last chance to salvage the marriage. Jumped in with both feet only to find that my wife seems to only be half there.
My hopes of rekindling the marriage I had always hoped for are being met with indifference and interest in anything but me.
When I put all my attention to her and try to be the husband I think I should be she runs away emotionally. When I retreat and neglect she wonders where I went and seeks me out.
It seems like there are a few minutes of intimacy experienced in any given month. It is deflating to have put so much into repair only to find a shallow and unfulfilling relationship.
I cant be the only one to have experienced this. Any thoughts people have about this would be appreciated to help me understand.
Does this change over time?
Is she checked out for good?
Am I being too nice? Too caring?
Is she just hanging on for fear of the unknown?
How can you tell if your spouse still loves you?
How long will this last?
Is she committed to trying to make things better? If so, what is it she is doing to show her commitment?
You are in a tough spot. Being too nice to a woman comes across as weak, and women don't have sex with weak men.
Is she able to be really clear about what she wants from you?
How about what you want from her? Because if this is only going to be about what she wants,
Most men want more physical connection/more touching and yes more sex from their wives. Is she willing to make that effort for you while you are making all this effort for her? If she is turned off by you, she needs to be honest about that and tell you why and if it is fixable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seachange
Can anyone out there share any perspective on the impact of counselling to make the relationship feel right? I spent years distant and neglecting my wife then entered therapy six months ago as the last chance to salvage the marriage. Jumped in with both feet only to find that my wife seems to only be half there.
My hopes of rekindling the marriage I had always hoped for are being met with indifference and interest in anything but me.
When I put all my attention to her and try to be the husband I think I should be she runs away emotionally. When I retreat and neglect she wonders where I went and seeks me out.
It seems like there are a few minutes of intimacy experienced in any given month. It is deflating to have put so much into repair only to find a shallow and unfulfilling relationship.
I cant be the only one to have experienced this. Any thoughts people have about this would be appreciated to help me understand.
Does this change over time?
Is she checked out for good?
Am I being too nice? Too caring?
Is she just hanging on for fear of the unknown?
How can you tell if your spouse still loves you?
How long will this last?
How is she showing her committment? I think she feels like by making dinner and taking care of the kids she is there. She is also going through a big push to be independent. In fact it is working! She is stronger and more in control of herself than ever before. She is doing really well in that area. (I need to do the same) I think the problem is that she is reluctant to rely or become intimate with me for fear of losing this new sense of self. If anything she shows her commitment to herself. (Which is cool... but leaves our marriage in tough spot and leaves me feeling like a yo yo)
Being too nice is an issue I do have. I vacillate between 95% too nice (passive) and 5% absolutely rude and mean (aggressive). So that is my work to gain some balance there.
Is she clear about what she wants? I think so. But this an area I should dig into. It also means that I need to be clear about what I want. Being able to effectively communicate that is a challenge for me. I struggle between wanting to be nice and being demanding. I hate the idea of being viewed as 'weak' so I often say nothing, which builds up resentments. Then I explode and she pulls back even further.
She says she is not turned off by me. But her actions tell a different story. This also seems like an area and that I need to address head on.
Has anyone been on either the husband or wife side of a similar situation that can help me understand how to effectively address these issues?
How often do you have sex?
How often do you actually want to have sex?
How often does she reject you?
Being a mom is fine - but it has little to do with being a wife.
Have you told her what you need her to do for you to feel she is committed to YOU?
This whole - I don't want to be intimate because I don't want to lose my sense of self is just code. It really means: I am not attracted to you, don't want to ever have sex with you, and do NOT want to tell you that.
As for the passive/aggresive thing. I think you need to learn to coach yourself to have conflict when you are not red hot angry. Really angry people do not take a firm, smart approach to a conversation. They end up saying stupid things and getting outmaneuvered.
A simple approach to this is to say:
Plenty of independent women are married and have regular sex with their husbands. If being independent means you don't want to have sex, then be honest and tell me. If you just find me unattractive, tell me that also. Otherwise I expect sex twice a week. So either be honest and admit you dislike it, or just do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seachange
Thanks for the feedback MEM.
How is she showing her committment? I think she feels like by making dinner and taking care of the kids she is there. She is also going through a big push to be independent. In fact it is working! She is stronger and more in control of herself than ever before. She is doing really well in that area. (I need to do the same) I think the problem is that she is reluctant to rely or become intimate with me for fear of losing this new sense of self. If anything she shows her commitment to herself. (Which is cool... but leaves our marriage in tough spot and leaves me feeling like a yo yo)
Being too nice is an issue I do have. I vacillate between 95% too nice (passive) and 5% absolutely rude and mean (aggressive). So that is my work to gain some balance there.
Is she clear about what she wants? I think so. But this an area I should dig into. It also means that I need to be clear about what I want. Being able to effectively communicate that is a challenge for me. I struggle between wanting to be nice and being demanding. I hate the idea of being viewed as 'weak' so I often say nothing, which builds up resentments. Then I explode and she pulls back even further.
She says she is not turned off by me. But her actions tell a different story. This also seems like an area and that I need to address head on.
Has anyone been on either the husband or wife side of a similar situation that can help me understand how to effectively address these issues?
based on what you've posted, your wife has been alone in many ways for quite some time
she needs time to adjust to your newfound enlightened attention
and as long as she needs to adjust is as long as she needs
i don't see your situation as a matter of strategy as much as one of making things right and then allowing your wife to come to terms with how she feels
about how she'd been treated for so long
and how she's being treated now for so short a time
your treatment of your wife before was a very long cold winter for her
and now you're a very short spring
she's waiting to see how long until winter again sets in
I totally disagree with the approach recent cloud suggested for a number of reasons:
- During the time he was emotionally distant she was a partner in the marriage as well. So if she was unhappy she was responsible for addressing it. You cannot put ALL of this on him. Like he was bad and she was good all that time. It is rarely like that.
- This whole open ended - he has to try to be perfect until she decides she forgives him and she gets as long as she wants is not even close to reasonable.
A man in this situation is in a tough spot. While being kind and loving is a warm bonding thing. It is a turn off for some women.
None of us know exactly what was what in this marriage. Still if there is no mercy after 6 months - then it is time for him to explain what HIS NEEDS are. Because his need for love/sex is no different then her need for attention/talk. They are the same.
Reverse it - if she had been frigid for a long time and then had been knocking it out of the part for the last 6 months and SHE posted that he was still acting withdrawn and emotionally cold we would all be telling her to tell him to get over himself and recirprocate. 6 months of making up without reciprocity is a long time.
Very common problem - woman loses desire for man. Lots of reasons - still it is what it is. She doesn't want to lose him though. So what happens is an endless stream of compaints/excuses.... I would bet that is the case here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by recent_cloud
based on what you've posted, your wife has been alone in many ways for quite some time
she needs time to adjust to your newfound enlightened attention
and as long as she needs to adjust is as long as she needs
i don't see your situation as a matter of strategy as much as one of making things right and then allowing your wife to come to terms with how she feels
about how she'd been treated for so long
and how she's being treated now for so short a time
your treatment of your wife before was a very long cold winter for her
and now you're a very short spring
she's waiting to see how long until winter again sets in
where you cynically see an endless stream of compliants/ excuses i see two people who want to love one another in a healthy way finally talking after probably many years of deadly silence, trying to figure it out.
Very common problem - woman loses desire for man. Lots of reasons - still it is what it is. She doesn't want to lose him though. So what happens is an endless stream of compaints/excuses.... I would bet that is the case here.
Look. When your spouse is detached and distant first step is that you feel pain. Then in time you learn to live with that detachment. It becomes your life. You love the person a lot and wouldn't leave the marriage, you're not exactly fond of not being so close emotionally but you can handle it. Now...after a looong period of time of living like that, your spouse suddenly decides they want to be there and get along with you. You're used to that distance. You know getting close might mean pain again. So you are pretty reluctant to do it.
Hence, when he gets close to her, she tends to pull away a bit, yet when he detaches, she tends to 'seek him out'. Because she's maintaining that perfect distance that keps her close enough but safe and out of pain. She's prolly doing this without realizing, it's probably wayyyy down in her brain and formed behaviour over time.
If i'd have read this a year or so ago i would have said it's a big pile of psychological jumbo. But, since i acted the same way and i am still (!) having a hard time letting go of some frustration, jealousy, vulnerability after almost a year since i started, it might be the case with his wife too.
A good marriage is one where, every time people grow apart, don't get along..or anything like that...at least one of them tries to do something and doesn't think 'hey, you know, i'm the only one giving', because tell ya what, they might be so focused on what they are giving that they fail to see what they receive.
Plus, this
Quote:
the husband I think I should be
sounds wrong from the start. What's the husband she thinks you should be? During counseling, at home, anywhere, did you tell eachother honestly what's your view on what a good marriage or relationship is? What each of you feel they are missing? Eventually you can swap needs (each does what the other requested). If i want food and you bring me water, i will appreciate the gesture but i'll still be hungry
I am not being cynical. Loss of desire is a very, very common outcome in marriage. And it is probably the most frequently concealed breakdown because generally if you tell the other person directly you are not attracted to them - and you doubt it will change - relationship ends.
I do think it is hard for a man to explain how important sex is to a woman. The idea that either party in a marriage gets a blank check for redress against past injuries is silly. It really is simple - if it was that bad you divorce them. If not, you forgive them. If it were me - I would nicely explain that if she didn't love me enough to have sex with me on a regular basis just to make ME happy to get through this tough time - then I accept that things have gotten past the point of no return.
Here I will ask the OP a practical question
Is your wife financially dependent on you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by recent_cloud
where you cynically see an endless stream of compliants/ excuses i see two people who want to love one another in a healthy way finally talking after probably many years of deadly silence, trying to figure it out.
i have absolutely no problem explaining or actually demonstrating to a woman how important sex is to me.
i hope that situation improves for you.
and yes, the aggrieved party in a marriage does get a blank check of redress ( and the word 'silly' as a descriptive was unhelpful)
how long does one work at fixing what one broke in a marriage?
until it's fixed.
and the aggrieved party does have final say if and when they again feel whole and safe.
if that means one makes the personal decision to check out because one doesn't appreciate the other's time frame, then that's their decision.
and, respectfully, if i were a woman and you demanded 'nicely' as you put it, that i acommodate you sexually while i may have forgiven your wrongs but am still working on feeling safe and trusted, our discussion would then be about where you'd like your mail sent.
i realize we're getting a tad off focus here, so i will if you're inclined allow you a final word.
I did prepare a very direct list of my concerns with the marriage and requests for change and presented in our session last week.
My timing could have been better. She flipped out and said she wanted out of the marriage. We left the session with our marriage in turmoil.
Later that day she proceeded to seek aggressively to change all of our families plans for the next few months. Holidays, trips, etc. Everything was off the table and we would separate. Normally, I would have jumped in apologized and sought to reconcile. This time however, I accepted all of her suggestions without pause then personally accepted that our marriage was ending.
I detached and did my best to stay out of her way.
She then explained that she was angry because of the list. Went on to say, that if anyone had a right to be angry it was her for me bringing up the same issues over and over again.
In addition she said that I was in no place to make requests as she was so angry about my recent negative reactions to issues in our marriage. (I had blown my lid the week before and said some very nasty stuff to her)
Several days of being cold to one another passed before our next session.
In session, we each maintained our perspectives. The counselor accepted both of our requests for separation. No attempt was made by me to seek reconciliation.
We left seperately with the sad agreement to divorce.
I was determined to have my voice and requests for change heard. She was determined to be remain hurt and be treated as the injured party.
An hour later she reached out and sought to reconcile. We did and we addressed many of the issues with agreement to complete the discussion.
Now what? What happens now to make sure this is the real thing in terms of rebuilding our marriage and making it strong enough to stand the challenges that are sure to be aroung the corner?
We are both elated right now. We stared divorce in the face and instead chose to work it out. But what does a couple do to ensure that the future speedbumps are just that and not a complete meltdown like the last several days?
Anyone else have experience with a spouse that will throw the whole thing out the window just to prove their point?
Look. Let's say this again...you're the one who pushed her away. Now she's scared and detached.
How can you come and demand 'to have my voice and requests for change heard'?.
'Now what? What happens now to make sure this is the real thing in terms of rebuilding our marriage and making it strong enough to stand the challenges that are sure to be aroung the corner?'
This is what i would do :Forget negative, negative thinking, negative demands. In fact. Don't ask anything. Just give. Keep on giving. Don't ever be angry...don't ever make a face...stop caring if you're receiving anything at all. Just freaking give for one month straight and see how it goes. Just so you don't misunderstand ...this doesn't mean you being a doormat for your wife. It means treating her as you would if there were no problems.
'But what does a couple do to ensure that the future speedbumps are just that and not a complete meltdown like the last several days?'
They don't provoke even more speedbumps like you just have. Also, sometimes people like to forget there might be speedbumps ahead, so that they can, with a clear head, pass them as they appear. You making a list of the speedbumps and constantly reminding your wife what they are...really really can't help that relationship.
6 months of counselling. What now?
