jmdreamer

I have a tough marital situation with a wife who I believe is depressed, refuses to believe she is, and refuses to seek ANY help and this is destroying our relationship. She is very irritable, never feels well, has trouble sleeping, doesn't like to talk to me, and has zero libido. She would be absolutely irate if I shared any of this, including concerns about depression, with her family or friends, and hides all of this from them anyway, so an type of intervention seems unlikely. I have pretty much made up my mind I need to go to counseling, even though I am not depressed, even if my wife won't go with me, but wanted any other advice. I need help figuring out who to go to (psychologist, psychiatrist, counselor, or other?) and how to get her the help she needs (but doesn't want). Details are below.

We have been married four years. Our relationship started out wonderful. The first few months we dated (long distance relationship) when she was all over me and told me it was the best she ever felt in her entire life (30 years at the time). We could stay up all night talking, enjoyed being together, and had plenty of chemistry and physical passion. One of the thing I found most attractive about her was she told me she didn't need alcohol because she got "high on life" (which is how I am and have always felt.) Those months of happiness and passion suddenly changed. One of her close family members (a parent figure) died, albeit not unexpectedly. She literally stopped kissing me and being physical at that point. During that time, she went through a period of watching over 40 hours per week of TV shows, and when I visited, her TV schedule didn't change to do stuff together (and that eventually subsided, thankfully). After giving her some grieving time for a few months, we discussed her change and she said the reason she stopped kissing me and stuff because she missed me so much (in our distance relationship), that she couldn't handle physical stuff for a weekend and then have to wait a few weeks till we reignited our flame. She promised she was saving up her kisses and passion for me for when we could finally be together again, and I took her word on that. Around that time, she also started developing some chronic, although not life-threatening health problems.

Long story short, she never seemed to find that passion for our relationship again. We got engaged and she said she was sorry she had trouble doing anything physical (hugs, kisses) with me and was working to change it. When it didn't happen, I proposed we move back the wedding date (not break the engagement) until we were better prepared and reignited that passion-filled love. It was the only time in our relationship I have ever seen her cry and beg and plead with me to give her a second chance and she promised me she would do better. I trusted her on it and we kept the wedding date as is. Not counting a few times on the honeymoon (and we were both intentionally first-timers), have had sex less than 10 times (including none in the past year). We've passionately kissed zero times during that period. She has absolutely zero interest in anything romantic - doesn't want candlelight or music or anything like that. This is a completely different person than I met.

Here we are four years later...Anytime she doesn't feel good, which is literally everyday, she doesn't care to talk - she often (though not always) prefers to sit in silence rather than talk (although she will talk to the cats a little bit). In a social or work settings she is fine - nobody would ever know we have problems. In the past few years, I have asked her every day how she feels, and she is always tired and has never once said she felt well, no exaggeration. Last year, we finally figured out one of her medical problems (idiopathic orthostatic cyclic edema, which included signs consistent with fibromyalgia), which has been treated (using Adderall) and helped, but she still has lots of fatigue, difficulty sleeping, general malaise, and no libido. When I touch her, she tenses up or tries to move away. Sometimes she can be very nice to me, but many other times she is overly irritable and reacts very harshly to me. She has managed to argue with me about things we agree on. She almost never does that to her colleagues, and I am truthfully jealous of how sweet she is to our pets (who I also love). It is hard for me not to take her silence and regular lack of desire to talk to me personally, though I have learned some.

I also should note, that last year she told me she loved me once. It was on New Years Even when I told her it was the last chance for the year to tell me she loved me. She does sign my Valentines day card, birthday card, and anniversary card as "Love Always and Forever," but other than that refuses to tell me those words. She knows it bothers me and I tell her on a regular basis, but she chooses not to tell me. I know she doesn't tell her family members she loves them either. Again, I know she has it in her, because she used to tell me how much she loves me and give me cards and write me poems about it.

No spouse is perfect, nor am I, but I am pretty good, and that is just who I am. I do all of the cooking, nearly all of the cleaning, take her shopping whenever she wants to go together, attentively listen to her when she does wish to talk, take care of her as best I can when she doesn't feel well, help her with work when she needs, get along well with her friends and family, and a lot more. We both have good careers, don't drink / smoke, and are well-liked and well-respected by others. Any criticism she has had for me, I have tried to change for the better, and when I do, she doesn't seem to notice, and if she does, she really doesn't acknowledge it. We go out to dinner with friends once a week, and we go shopping together whenever she wants (and I am a good shopping buddy), but other than that, the rest of the time she sits around in her pajamas working on her computer and watching TV. In nice weather, she has declined any invitations to go for a walk with me or do pretty much anything. She is just no longer that person who she wants was.

When asked on many occasions if she is happy, she said she is not happy, but is not unhappy either and that is the way she has been her whole life (again, her family situation growing up wasn't great). I know this is not completely true - she was so happy when we were first together she told me she was a new person who helped her rediscover life and it was the first time she experience true love. I am not sure if she forgot that time period or is in denial about how she once felt towards me. When asked if she remembers what it was like to be passionate about me as she once was, she shrugs.

She blames me for arguments about our physical relationship, as she is not the one who is unhappy about it; I am. She says she is content with her life, including our non-existent romantic life, and if I didn't have this fantasy standard of us having sex and having passion in our kisses, we would both be content - I guess that is true, but I don't think it is unreasonable to want to experience chemistry together. When asked, she said she finds me attractive most of the time, but has zero sexual attraction for me (or anybody). She said it isn't necessarily abnormal, sexual attraction is not necessarily expected in a marriage, and it doesn't bother her (although it bothers her that it bothers me). She also said she has no desire change that. She thinks its good we have gotten into a nightly routine in the past year where I hug her goodnight (and she pushed me away after about 2 seconds), and that whatever she does physically is never enough for me and I always want more. I have barely seen her naked - she insists on showering with the door closed and changing without me in sight. I don't treat her like a sex object, but I think this far into a marriage we shouldn't be that uncomfortable with each other's body and it makes me feel rejected on a regular basis.

I am not a confrontational person and try to approach all of these issues in a loving and caring manner, as that s my nature. She has repeatedly told me does not wish to see anybody for it or try anything - it is her body and her decision what to do with it and it doesn't affect me (even though it does). I believe she may have a simple vitamin or mineral deficiency (considering she has a very poor diet - we don't eat the same meals, though we eat at the same time while watching TV - not by my choice), yet she refuses to take anything for them. She is not willing to try a vitamin D capsule or ZMA or anything like that because there is no evidence that she needs it (even if reports suggest it, there is no evidence that she specifically has a deficiency). And she is not willing to go to a doctor because they have been unsuccessful in the past and she refuses to have further blood tests to see if there is any deficiency. I have suggested counseling multiple times and she refuses to go. She had family problems as a kid and went to counseling and found it useless, and she also is a very private person. I believe she suffered some mental abuse, but never sexual. She also says she does not have a lot of the symptoms of depression (ie, crying, feeling hopeless, suicidal thoughts, etc.) and she has a pretty strong medical background, so she is confident in her thoughts about it.

In sum, I believe she had a troubled relationship with her family and redirects her anger at me. She has a medical condition, depression or other, that has completely made her into a different person who doesn't have feelings for me, is okay with that, and isn't planning on making an effort to change that. Underneath this depressed, often angry, indifferent person is a lovely lady who loves life and love me, but I am afraid without help, that beautiful human being is gone forever.

Please, any help? How do I get help for somebody who doesn't believe she has a problem and doesn't want to fix it. She would be furious with me if I told her family or friends I thought she was depressed, which makes it even more difficult (and she hides it well around them anyway).

VLR

I think you are going in the right direction to get counseling for yourself. You aren't going to be able to force her to do anything, but the counselor can help you get yourself on track and also to make it clear to your wife that she owns her future. Maybe if she has room to deal without the constant interaction from you she will make some progress, but you arent getting anywhere as things are today.

magnoliagal

I was married 7 years and was facing a divorce before I finally sought help for my depression. And even then I thought we were just going for marriage counseling to fix HIM (funny huh?)

I agree you can't fix someone who doesn't want to see they have a problem. I don't know if my husband knew I was depressed or not all he's ever said was that he knew that wasn't the real me. Going to counseling for yourself is a good thing because living with a depressed person is really hard. I know I put my husband through hell and didn't even know it until my eyes were opened. I stand by the statement that depressed people have the potential to be toxic so you do need that counseling just to learn how to set healthy boundaries and to learn how to cope.

I wish you well.

grizabella

Counceling for you is a good idea. It sounds like your wife is a victim of chronic depression. It is a condition that is treatable with the proper medication. Medication alone will help, but medication plus therapy is even better. Can you get her to your family doctor for some meds? She needs to see that her reactions to you and your relationship are unhealthy and will not resolve themselves. She will never be able to change things by herself no matter how much she may want to. Good luck.

Uptown

Dreamer, most of the traits you are describing sound exactly like those of depression. So, like the other posters, I agree she is unhappy and depressed. Yet, there are things about her history and behavior with people outside the home that suggest her main problem -- and the cause of the depression -- may be strong traits of a personality disorder (PD). Significantly, I am not saying she has a full blown disorder. Only a professional can make that determination. Instead, I am suggesting she may have strong traits of a PD. Even if those traits fall well short of the diagnostic criteria for having the full blown disorder, they can wreck havoc on a marriage.

If I had to guess, I would say that the PD best describing your W's behavior is BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW suffers from. If you read about BPD online, you will quickly learn that BPDers typically are very verbally abusive because they carry tremendous anger from childhood -- and they direct that anger outward to their loved ones. Clearly, the behavior you describe does not include much verbal abuse. I therefore note that a substantial share of BPDers -- perhaps 15% to 20% -- direct their anger inwards. Hence, instead of "acting out" when angry, they usually "act in." They punish their spouses with cold withdrawal, not verbal abuse. These BPDers are called "quiet borderlines" and "waif borderlines."

One factor suggesting that your W may have strong "quiet BPD" traits is your observation that she has a "troubled family history" and was "mentally abused" in childhood. Although most abused children do not develop BPD, abuse nonetheless greatly increases the risk of developing it. Indeed, a recent study of nearly 35,000 adults found that 70% of the BPDers reported having been abused or abandoned by a parent in early childhood. If your W is a BPDer (i.e., person having strong BPD traits), she likely has had them since age of 4 or 5, at which time the trauma prevented her from developing a strong self image.

A second factor suggesting BPD traits is the way she is so friendly and outgoing with people outside the home and so loving with the pets -- but treats you much differently. One hallmark of BPD traits is that the person will be generous and pleasant with co-workers, casual friends, and complete strangers -- but will go home at night to withdraw coldly from (or verbally abusive to) the very people who love her. This occurs because the co-workers and strangers pose no threat to a BPDer's two great fears: engulfment (from intimacy) and abandonment. Specifically, there is no intimacy to make her feel suffocated and engulfed and there is no close relationship that can be abandoned.

A third factor suggesting BPD traits is her near constant level of unhappiness and depression. Although depression can be caused by any of the 10 PDs, BPD is one of the worst PDs in that regard.

A fourth factor is her refusal to acknowledge being depressed or to seek help. Most depressed people absolutely hate feeling that way and thus are eager to try the available medications, which are highly successful (i.e., exceeding 80% success rate) in treating depression. BPDers, however, are notorious for refusing to acknowledge their issues and for being highly resistant to seeking therapy. One reason is that they have very low self esteem and are filled with shame carried from a young age. Hence, the last thing a BPDer wants to learn is that there is one more flaw or mistake that must be added to the long list of things she hates about herself. Another reason is that, although BPD is a thought disorder, it is invisible to the sufferer because she has been thinking that way since childhood.

A fifth factor is her being so averse to being touched or held by you -- not to mention the total lack of sex. As I mentioned above, a BPDer has a great fear of intimacy because, given her weak self image, it makes her feel like she is losing herself into your strong personality -- as though she is evaporating into thin air. She also may experience this frightening feeling as being controlled and suffocated.

This is why, when a H draws close to a BPDer W, the intimate period will be quickly followed by an argument she starts over nothing -- so as to push him away and give her breathing space. With most BPDers, however, it is not the touching or sex that overwhelms them but, rather, the actual intimacy of being loved. This is why it is often said that trying to heal a BPDer by loving her is like trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her.

A sixth factor is your W's "poor little me" attitude, always complaining about her plight and unhappiness but never willing to lift a finger to change it. This is another hallmark of BPDers because, to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions, they think of themselves as "the victim" -- always the victim. Because "being a victim" is the closest thing they have to a lasting self image, they hang on tight to that false self image. This is why, whenever you pull a BPDer from the raging seas to safety, within two weeks she will jump right back into the water. She doesn't want to be saved. Rather, she wants you to go through the endless motions of saving her so her self image of "victim" is continually validated.

A seventh factor -- likely driven by the need to be "a victim" -- is your W's multitude of chronic body ailments like fibromyalgia, an amorphous ailment that travels from one part of the body to the other. It is very common for BPDers to complain of a multitude of such chronic problems and be unwilling to do anything about it. That is, they are resistant to seeing a doctor or improving their diet, as your W is. My exW, for example, suffers from fibromyalgia. So do her two sisters and mother. All four of them have strong BPD traits.

An eight factor is her being "often angry," as you say. BPDers carry enormous anger from early childhood. This is why the anger can be triggered within seconds. It is already there, just under the surface. All that is required to release it is an innocuous comment or action that somehow triggers one of her two great fears. Although you are not the source of the anger, she does not realize that and thus will withdraw in icy silence (or strike out with verbal abuse), coming up with the most outrageous, incredulous explanations for why you are being blamed.

A ninth factor suggesting BPD involvement is the wonderful way that your relationship began, with her being "passionate" and "all over you" for "a few months." With a BPDer, this honeymoon period typically lasts up to six months (you apparently were cut short because of the stress from the death of her parental figure). Although a BPDer normally cannot tolerate intimacy without withdrawing coldly (or becoming abusive), her great fear of engulfment is fully suspended during the honeymoon by her infatuation for you. For a few months, you were in her mind the near-perfect man who was incapable of suffocating her (fear #1) or abandoning her (fear #2).

Also contributing to the passion and bliss of the honeymoon, if your W is a BPDer, would have been her need to mirror all the good aspects of your personality. Because a BPDer has a weak, unstable self image, she seeks out a man with a strong personality who can ground and center her. The result would be that the two of you both believed you had met your "soul mate" because the match in your interests and personalities was so near perfect. Sadly, that mirroring vanishes within six months with the fading of the infatuation.

Caution. Please keep in mind, Dreamer, that I am not convinced your W has full blown BPD. I therefore am not trying to convince you she does. Instead, I am just showing you how much of her behavior can be logically explained by a PD, perhaps by BPD. My objective is to show you the potential value of seeing not just a "counselor" but, rather, a clinical psychologist who has the training to tell you what you likely are dealing with.

I suspect that few counselors have ever heard of a "quiet borderline," much less learned how to treat such a person. I also suggest that you go to your own therapist without your W present -- at least initially. IME, therapists are loath to tell a high-functioning BPD sufferer her true diagnosis because insurance usually won't cover it and she almost certainly will terminate therapy on hearing such a dreaded diagnosis.

Online resources. While you are waiting for a therapy appointment, you may want to read more about "quiet borderlines." If so, you won't find much online because everyone is obsessed about "acting out" BPDers, who are so easy to identify due to their raging. I therefore will suggest two excellent articles. One is by therapist Shari Schreiber at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved..

Another description (which is more icy and mean) is by A.J. Mahari at Borderline Personality - The Quiet Acting In Borderline and The Silent Treatment - Nons - Borderline Personality Disorder Inside Out.

Finally, I note that your post above is remarkable for its clarity and abundance of fine detail about your W's dysfunctional behavior. Yet, if you feel in hindsight that your W is more verbally abusive than what you've described here, I suggest you read my overview of how the more typical (acting out) BPDers behave. It is located in GTRR's thread, where my three posts start there at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiety...tml#post188319. Those posts explain, among other things, why BPDers do black-white thinking and an endless cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back. The posts also contain links to other good articles. If you have any questions about BPD traits, I would be glad to try to answer them or point you to good online resources. Take care, Dreamer.

jmdreamer

Thanks to all for the replies so far.

Uptown, all I can say is WOW. I realize I gave a lot of detail away, but your post of BPD completed any missing detail. I can briefly respond to your points - I apologize for the length, but this hits home... And scares the heck out of me!

2nd factor - In one of her first poems to me she even described herself as "never believing she would be capable of being loved by anybody" and then I came along. She had mentioned things about pushing others away, and also how she had been let down by each of her parents in very different ways. She was definitely afraid of abandonment.

One of the things is that I have constantly disappointed her and let her down, and the way she talks, it makes me sound like a terrible husband.... even though she acknowledges I am not a terrible husband. I promised I would never hurt her (and I am not the type of person who would intentionally hurt anybody, emotionally or physically), and she can cite numerous occasions of where I have let her down and it has hurt her, and I strongly believe these are very over-exaggerated (and she definitely embellished details on many things, not just our relationship). For instance, my wishing to postpone (not cancel) the wedding until we worked out the relationship issues and could enjoy it to the fullest was regarded as me hurting her - she does not consider the fact that I wanted to do so because she could no longer express herself emotionally to me. But things a lot more minor than that are me disappointing her.

4th Factor - She definitely has low self esteem and acknowledges that. A family member regularly used to pick on her about certain characteristics of her looks and still does (to a lesser degree). She refuses to wear a bathing suit, despite having a very attractive figure.


5th Factor - She is very independent and I can see how intimacy could threaten her sense of control. Not always, but more than I would like, there is still a sense of "my" and "your." For instance, once she was away for a few days and when she came back she saw the sheets were disturbed where she always sits on the sectional couch and asked "Were you sitting in my seat?" She didn't care so much that I was, but it's a sectional couch in our house - I don't think we need to declare possession over different seats within it! I would love to sit next to her or cuddle up and watch a movie, like we once did, but we have our own ends. It really bothers me that in bed, her favorite teddy bear serves as a physical divider between us.

If I ask a question, she frequently needs to know why I am asking, even if it doesn't matter. For instance, we were having company once and she put my laptop away, which was fine. I asked her where she put it. Instead of telling me, she asked me why I needed it. (It was because I needed to look up a recipe, I think). This happens frequently, where instead of just giving me the simple information I politely ask, I need to justify why I am asking it - I feel like a little child asking for permission. This seems to be a control thing.


7th Factor. Wow. I honestly think she has been legitimately victimized at many points in her life, and even in her job this has happened. But at home, she is nothing but a victim of love and care, but somehow manages to twist things around. I frequently am blamed for things that don't seem to require blame.

8th Factor. I perceive her as being a very angry person deep inside. I found an anger assessment website that I tried taking myself in terms of how she acts (though it is meant to be taken in the first person, not the third) and "she" scored very high on it: The Angry Spouse -- The Institute for Marital Healing

It is almost as if she enjoys being angry sometimes. She raises her voice and uses an angry tone at me unnecessarily. Lately, I have noticed she gives me a lot more dirty looks than previously, although she claims this isn't the case and that I am just being overly sensitive.


9th Factor. Wow again. I never thought about this before, but she definitely mirrored my personality traits and to some degree my interests. We really had a near perfect match and it vanished.


I would not describe our relationship as her being verbally abusive to me (unless the silent treatment is considered verbal abuse, as the one article, which I have only glanced at thus far, suggests). One thing that I have said on multiple occasions is I don't get the balance. If I do something bad, I hear about it. If I do something good, I don't. She said I am just looking for attention and sarcastically tells me she will fawn over every little thing I do if that is what I want. If I clean the entire house, she'll notice buy won't say anything. If I forget to put apiece of mail out, I'll hear about it. If I smell bad (ie, after working out before I shower), she'll tell me, but if I put on body spray or cologne, no compliment how I smell nice. That seems to be the case for everything - anything I do well is simply expected and shouldn't be acknowledged, but anything I do poorly I am reprimanded for. I have said I feel like we have a business-like relationship in that manner and I constantly have to stay on my toes and do things because I fear the ramifications of "screwing up."

Looking at your other post... My wife desperately wants to go on vacation. I am willing to do it, but considering she doesn't feel well 365 days per year and often doesn't feel like talking, I don't see a few days vacation being money well invested when we have credit card debt (from the wedding and home ownership, continually being paid off in a responsible fashion) and mortgage. I see a nice vacation being a huge expense for her not to feel well in a different venue. To many, this could seem selfish of me and could justify her passive hostility towards me, but I know this is an expensive "band-aid" that will make things better for a few days at most.

Any time I confront her about things, I wind up somehow apologizing.

I find myself walking on eggshells, as you describe, all of the time... especially when it comes to interactions with my family. I am an only child with a great relationship with my two wonderful loving parents. I think deep inside, she is jealous of it and resents that. Any time I call them, I am uncomfortable talking when she is an earshot, even though I am not saying anything about her. I always find myself making excuses why she cannot participate in family outings. The reason I provide is because she doesn't feel well (which is truthful), but then she gets upset if I reveal anything about the way she feels to them, because her medical status is "none of their business." I always have to walk a fine line of secrecy and justify her actions. They have tried to be close to her and welcome her into the family, but she has not accepted it (fear of intimacy).

She definitely doesn't trust me in a normal kind of way, and has openly admitted from Day 1 that she has trust issues with anybody and everybody. She fully trusts me in terms of my relationship with others, but on so many occasions, she has "pieced" together information to conclude that something is either a bizarre coincidence or I had an ulterior motive, or I did something intentionally, when in fact there is nothing to piece together. It isn't to the point of frequent conspiracy theories, but so often she reads into things in which there is nothing to be read into.

One of the most challenging things to me is how smart my wife is. She was a champion debater in high school. If you combine her smarts, debate skills, and BPD it is one heck of a combination to battle.


This is absolutely amazing to me. It is like watching a movie with rapid unfolding of events towards the end, in which everything makes sense all of a sudden (like Vanilla Sky or Fight Club). I am sitting here thinking wow - this was all an illusion. Some of my best traits, (care / concern, patience, and trust) have gotten me into this situation. Looking at your other posts, by 18 months, I was definitely ready to bail, but was so far in and trusted that she was trying to change and kept reliving that 3 month honeymoon.

This is especially stressful to me right now, because she is from overseas originally (yes, she moved away from her parents and has no trouble telling close friends that there is good reason for that). We will be going there next month and I would like to have a talk with her father (who she is fairly close to) about this and my concern for her in person, but that freaks me out. The next opportunity after that will be December, and I should probably wait until then after I have spoken to a psychologist and gotten more info.

Also, our anniversary is coming up next week. What kind of card does one purchase for a BPD wife? At this point, I am emotionally fed up and don't want to be an enabler and give her a card telling her how great she is and how much I love her, because it just reinforces the "abusive" stuff is acceptable. If I give her an extremely basic card (or none at all to send her a message about what I feel about our relationship), she'll likely be furious with me, and I mentally don't want to deal with it. This much thought shouldn't need to go into something as simple as picking out a card!

Thanks so much for your help - will start reading those articles about BPD.

jmdreamer

I read a bunch of articles this morning and am convinced I fell for and have married a borderline.

I guess the question begging to be answered is, "what next?" I contacted a psychologist.

But how do I deal with her in the mean time? I realize I need to avoid any type of situation where she can be the victim and I can give her sympathy. She won't feel well today, so I guess I can stop acknowledging she doesn't feel well? I hate to sound like an uncaring person, but I want to stop enabling her.

How does one deal with this when they first realize the problem? I do not see myself as the type of person who is a codependent, as many of the articles suggest. I have tried to rescue her and make her happy, but at the same point I am not addicted to such things and my personal self-confidence and personality has not changed to reflect a need to serve her constantly. Is trying to take the control away from her beneficial?

I don't think there is a quick fix to this, or any fix at all, but I guess I need to figure out how to address the issue now to start, before I even speak with a psychologist... Based on our upcoming travel schedule (combining professional travel with visiting her family) it may be weeks before I wind up speaking to a psychologist if they can't fit me in within the next few days. Any suggestions?

Sanity

Uptown fantastic post as always. Thank you for sharing.
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Uptown

Sanity and Dreamer, thanks for the kind words. I am happy you're finding the information helpful.
A tenth factor pointing to BPD traits is her collection of teddy bears. Not surprisingly, an adult with the emotional development of a four year old -- especially one having a harsh childhood -- would want to recreate that childhood and "re-live" it as a happy period. This is why it is common for many BPDers to maintain collections of stuffed animals or toys all the way through adulthood. Several years ago, for example, my foster son was dating a woman living at the same assisted-living facility. I told him I suspected she had strong BPD traits, based on how she had been treating him. I wasn't sure, however, until I walked into her room and saw over a hundred small stuffed toys neatly lined up on every shelf and every horizontal surface. This stuff is simply heart breaking.Sorry, Dreamer, I did not explain #5 very clearly. Actually, it is the most important factor because it is a major hallmark of BPD. Emotional instability usually shows itself as changes in mood lasting a few hours or anger that is inappropriate, intense, or uncontrollable. It thus can appear as a flipping back and forth between adoring you and devaluing you. Earlier, I discussed how a BPDer will withdraw from you (when you draw close and engulf her with intimacy) and will try to pull you back (when you move away, raising her fear of abandonment). This trait of instability explains why the second-best selling BPD book is called "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me." My question, then, is have you observed strong signs of such instability in your W?You love this woman. You loved her the day you married her. You've loved her for four years. If you decide to divorce her, you'll still love her the day you're signing the final papers. If you have to walk out on her to find a mature wife, it will not be due to the lack of your love. Moreover, she almost certainly loves you, albeit in the impaired immature way of a young child -- well short of what is needed to sustain a marriage unless she gets treatment.

So, to answer your question, I suggest you give her a card saying "I love you." When establishing your boundaries, make it clear they will be enforced and she will not get a free pass just because you love her. Love is not a sufficient basis for a mature LTR. Mutual support, trust, and respect of personal boundaries also are required.You simply treat her like any other adult you love, which means you hold her responsible for her actions. You establish a list of behaviors you will not tolerate and then you enforce them. One option is to simply hand her a list. Yet, because you are trying to avoid a draining fight, you could do it on an ad hoc basis. This means, when she does something offensive and disrespectful, you can say that the next time it occurs you will remove yourself from the abuse and walk out. For more minor infractions, this may mean leaving and returning later that night. For a grievous offense (e.g., adultery), it could mean filing for divorce. Specific ways of establishing boundaries and enforcing them are discussed in Codependent No More and Stop Walking on Eggshells.

One difficulty in creating specific boundaries is the fact that most of the emotional abuse is due not to things she is doing (e.g., continual complaining) but, rather, to things she is NOT doing (e.g., no sex, icy withdrawals, and no affection). Most important, the key thing she is NOT doing is acknowledging her issues and seeking professional guidance to correct them. This clearly indicates she cares little about your needs.

If I were you (i.e., living without sex or affection for over a year), I would insist -- at the very minimum -- that she be in twice-weekly therapy with a clinical psychologist as a condition of your remaining in the marriage. If she is unwilling to do that -- and so far she has been -- it is pointless to come up with a bunch of other boundaries. Moreover, I wouldn't waste a penny on marriage counseling until the psychologist agrees she has made enough progress for MC to be fruitful.

That's the easy part of establishing boundaries. What is hard is deciding what to do in the event she AGREES to individual therapy. The problem is that, with an unstable woman who cycles between "better" and "worse" every other week, it is very hard to ever know when real progress is being made.

With my exW, for example, she readily agreed to therapy. Indeed, she happily went to six different psychologists and 2 MCs, all to no avail -- costing me over $200,000 above what insurance covered. Because BPDers usually are excellent actors, playing a role for 50 minutes once a week was a piece of cake for her. Of course, I knew she likely would get worse when getting in touch with the painful memories (e.g., years of sexual assault by her sociopath dad).

Hence, during the first half of our 15 years together, I just figured she had to get worse before she got better. And, during the last half, I actually convinced myself she seemed to be getting better. BIG MISTAKE. But how could I know? This was a woman who was "getting better" every other week. That's the way unstable people are. No, to know she is "a borderline" or "has BPD" you would have to have a diagnosis in hand. As I explained earlier, there is little chance you will ever see such a diagnosis for a high functioning BPDer, even when the diagnostic criteria are fully satisfied. I therefore encourage you to speak in terms of "having stong BPD traits," which is how I define "BPDer" because you likely will never know whether those traits are above or below the diagnostic level. Because we all occasionally exhibit the nine BPD traits, what you are saying is that your W's traits are much stronger than normal -- indeed, so strong they are undermining your marriage (e.g., no hugging, affection, or sex for over a year). Short answer. I suggest taking your time to do it right. Like the members of any profession, clinical psychologists vary greatly in their skill sets. It therefore is important to take time to find one experienced in treating BPDers or, alternatively, one highly recommended by a trusted medical doctor -- or perhaps a head nurse (reached by phone) in the psych ward at a local hospital. If you are in a large city, such information may be available online when Googling for it. What you want, ideally, is an experienced psych who will speak candidly about BPD traits (he cannot render a diagnosis, of course, without your W there and is unlikely to do so if you bring her along because he must then be protective of her).

Long answer. Many people mistakenly think practices and terms in psychology are the same as those in the medical sciences. Yet, because psychology is trailing far behind the medical sciences -- by perhaps 80 to 100 years -- the terms sometimes are far different. This often causes confusion here on the forum when personality disorders (PDs) are discussed.

In every area of the medical sciences, for example, "disorder" always refers to a specific disease diagnosed by examining the symptoms. Diagnosis often is difficult because the same set of symptoms can be produced by a dozen different diseases (i.e., "disorders"). Hence, medical doctors always distinguish between disorders and symptoms. This is why, at health forums, you will see laymen talking about symptoms night and day -- but they will be reluctant to render a diagnosis of the cause, i.e., the "disorder," which is the province of professionals.

In psychology, however, the field is still too young to be able to identify diseases causing the personality "disorders." THERE ARE NO KNOWN DISEASES for PDs. Hence, these "disorders" are actually only a collection of symptoms. This severe limitation has created a problem for the "diagnosis" of PDs for decades. The problem is that the "diagnosis" of PDs (i.e., symptoms) is patterned after the binary approach used in medical science, where actual diseases are identifiable. It is binary (0,1) in the sense that you either have the disease or you don't.

Although this binary approach makes perfect sense for diagnosing diseases, it is silliness to apply it to evaluating the severity of PDs, which are only groups of symptoms. If this approach to describing symptoms were being used in the medical sciences, it would be readily apparent how absurd it is. Doctors would be diagnosing you as "tall" when above 6.5 feet and as "short" when below that height. You would be diagnosed as "having a fever" when above 105 degrees and "having no fever" when below it. You would be diagnosed as "fat" when above 400 lbs. and "slim" when below it.

Yet, that is exactly what psychologists do when "diagnosing" the symptoms of BPD and other PDs. They conclude that you either have it or you don't. This means that, if your W satisfies 95% of the criteria for "having BPD," she does not have it at all. Never mind that a woman at only 70% of the diagnostic threshold might be sick enough to make your life a living hell if she refuses treatment.

This is why obtaining an actual diagnosis is pretty useless to you. What you really need to know is whether the BPD symptoms (i.e., traits) are sufficiently severe to undermine your marriage. Given that you've not seen affection or sex for over a year, you likely don't need a psychologist to answer that one. And you don't need a psychologist to spot strong occurrences of icy withdrawal, continual blaming, "victim" mentality, verbal abuse, black-white thinking, and passive-aggressive punishing. After living with your W for four years, you would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to spot strong occurrences of such traits.

Seeing a psychologist or psychiatrist is important not to get a diagnosis but, rather, to get professional guidance on the traits, i.e., the symptoms, you have been seeing for four years straight and to learn about treatment options. Moreover, the psych might determine that the traits are caused by a recent brain injury or body chemistry problem treatable with surgery or a pill. Those seem very unlikely but, given the stakes at hand, it would be comforting to know.

I note that psychologists knew decades ago that the binary diagnostic approach applied to PDs is an embarrassment to the profession. They did it only to satisfy the pressing demands of the insurance companies and courts who themselves use a binary approach, i.e., to reimburse or not -- and to institutionalize or not. In 2013, the new Diagnostic Manual is supposed to replace this silly yes/no approach with a graduated diagnostic approach, which they are calling "dimensional." When you are measuring differences in human behavior, performance, or body shape, the only sensible approach is to measure gradations -- not to limit the outcome to yes or no, pretending you've identified a disease.

Finally, I observe that those of us discussing BPD symptoms (i.e., traits) are occasionally attacked by forum members complaining that it is dangerous to discuss these symptoms without a psychologist in the room. It is "diagnosis" they claim. Yet, if you go onto a dozen different health forums, you will see a thousand folks writing about their symptoms all day long -- without one person complaining it is an amateur attempt at "diagnosis."

Further, as part of their community education programs, numerous major hospitals and research centers have web pages describing BPD traits and those pages are targeted strictly to laymen like us. They believe the knowledge of PD symptoms is good for the public to have. Clearly, this information is not going to burn your house down. So I am very pleased, Dreamer, that you have shown no sign whatsoever of being intimidated by it.

Uptown

An eleventh factor pointing to quiet BPD traits is her serious trust issue. As I discussed on other threads, BPDers generally are incapable of trusting people because that capacity was essentially destroyed (or failed to develop) in early childhood. My exW, for example, was convinced for 15 years that I was fabricating a lie -- about silly meaningless events -- nearly every week. Because I never lied to her, she had nothing she could really point to. But her feeling was so intense that she was convinced it had to be true.Most BPDers I've met are high functioning and well above average in intelligence. Although I've never seen "smarts" listed as a common BPD trait, I figure most BPDers had to be damn smart to survive their awful childhoods. IMO, their ability to survive a harsh enviornment (or harsh genetics) -- at an age when the rest of us were being pampered -- is a testament to their great strength and remarkable achievements.I suggest waiting till December. Indeed, the conventional wisdom at the BPD partner sites (targeted to Nons) is to NOT tell her side of the family because the news will not be well received. Those sites also advise against telling the BPDer herself because she almost certainly will protect her fragile ego by projecting it back onto you. Because projection works subconsciously, she likely will consciously believe you are the one with strong BPD traits. Being the codependent caregiver I am, there was no way in hell I was going to leave my exW without telling her. The result, of course, is that she believes I'm the BPDer (never mind that SHE's the one who was sexually molested for years by her own father).

If you do decide to tell her father, I suggest you tell him that your views are not an accusation against him or his W. As I discuss in other threads, a recent large scale study found that 30% of BPDers report that there was no abuse or abandonment in their childhoods. This is why it is believed that genetics alone sometimes can cause BPD to develop by producing an extreme sensitivity in the child. I have communicated with a number of BPDers who say they had very loving parents.

jmdreamer

Thanks again for your comments.

I found this article and found it helpful:
Borderline Personality Disorder: Profile and Process of Therapy

Without elaborating further, she told me her mother had an attention seeking disorder, although I don't recall the name of it (thought it was an epinym, rather than descriptive name). She has told me her mother had mental illness and was medicated for it, but no longer takes the medications because she claims they do nothing (consistent with BPD?). She has told me multiple times how her brother takes on the personality traits of whatever girl he is with, and I saw this myself (there was a movie he and I discussed he liked, and now that his girlfriend doesn't like it, neither does he), and he also has some impulsive behaviors.

One of the things I have been reading about is they are good at twisting facts and downright lying, and creating lies ad lib. This freaks me out, because I wonder how much of our relationship is based on lies. She has a few pretty amazing stories that I began to wonder about a while ago, and now I really wonder about some of them. A few I can actually verify with a little research that doesn't involve contacting anybody personal. Now I feel like I am becoming the conspiracy theorist and am more confused than ever. Like she has always told me, she is a private person and doesn't reveal things to others about herself except for on her terms and only what she wants them to know.

I did personally witness her mother blatantly lying about something intended to make my parents look bad. I think this has strained the relationship between my wife and my parents because I think she has been told lies about some things my parents have said. But how does one tell their wife that her very family is lying?!? It's not possible without major ramifications.

We have lied to her parents about some issues in our lives, because it is "simpler" to keep it that way. I do not like the idea of living a lie, but based on her family, I do agree, it is simpler to lie about some aspects of our lives than face the consequences. But if there are that many lies flying around, now I have to wonder why am I the one who only receives the truth? I have trusted her since day one, and many of the things she has told me about are definitely true, but others I have to wonder about...

When we were first getting to know each other and on the verge of starting an actual relationship, she knew I was a virgin and that I intended to stay that way until marriage. She also agreed with that and said she was a virgin and though her convictions were not as strong as mine (since she was not as religious) but was likely waiting until marriage. She also did push me further with my physical relationship than I planned on going, but I was okay with that.

I don't care about former boyfriends but just want honesty when she does speak about them, and have had some suspicions on that front. She shared info about her long-term relationship with another guy (who she is in touch with 1-2x per year and I have no trouble with that), though she claimed they were more friends than anything evidenced by the fact they kissed less than ten times.

There were two male friends she had, and some of the things she mentioned made me think they were more than that and she was intentionally hiding it from me. One time in a group setting we met some random guy she used to work with but was not close to (Bill) and without knowing who I was, he asked her, "Are you and Dave still together?" She got this ghost white look on her face and quickly shook her head no and moved on. I later asked about it and she said something like, "Everybody knows Bill is an idiot," diverting her answer. Oddly, one or two others had thought he was her fiance when she first interviewed for a job here (and when she came here to start that job months later, that is how we met). I don't give that fiance rumor too much weight, because people get things mixed up, but I know he was definitely mentioned in the interview. She claims she mentioned him she was saying he was the only person in the US she knew. Just plain confusing now.

Another friend who she was housemates with for a few months and claimed separate bedrooms. She said everybody thought they were in a relationship, but they weren't. Were they just housemates or was this a few month "honeymoon period?"

When she moved her, she had two condoms in her medicine cabinet she and her female friend got while traveling (the labels were indeed foreign) - the hotel gave them free condoms and they kept them, because "you never know when you might need one, even for an emergency (ie, sexual assault)." This doesn't sound like the behavior of a late 20's virgin (having condoms around just in case), but maybe I am reading too much into it - it wasn't like she had an open box of them with a few missing. It is stuff like that which always made me wonder just a bit, but she was honest with many things, many stories were verifiable, and I trusted her.

Now, with suspicion of BPD, my trust is a bit shaken. Did she tell me she was a virgin because that was a "good" attribute of mine she needed to mirror? It may all be a coincidence, or maybe I was duped because I am just that darn naive and trusting. I questioned it in my mind a bit before, but now it scares me, given the sexual promiscuity trait. She is too much of a germaphobe for that with random strangers, I think, but I just don't know. Without actually contacting them (which I don't intend to do), I have no way to know what is the truth, but it scares me that our relationship may have been built on a major lie. Incidentally, I have met both guys, and even got to know one fairly well. Just friends as she told me, friends with benefits, boyfriend, fiance, who knows? The only reason it even matters now is because if she was not truly waiting for marriage as I was, I think it would have changed the entire relationship dynamic - that was so important to me, I am not sure I would have continued on in the first place.

There are other various parts of the honeymoon stage that make sense now. Non-sexual things, but just things she did, said, and seemed to like that just seem very out of character for her.

Other trait about BPD that she has... The linked article says speaking in a quite voice is common (I guess so one has to listen especially closely?). Whenever she and I talk on the phone, I have to put her on speaker because I can't hear her - she knows this but claims she isn't talking differently. I have no problem hearing others on my phone, though. When she doesn't feel well she practically whispers, which she claims it is because talking loudly makes her head hurt, which is possible. I have to ask her to repeat stuff because it is so quiet sometimes and then after two or three times of asking her "what" she gets annoyed and raises her voice real loud.

Excessive pronouncing / emphasizing of syllables in words... This is one of the things I have mentioned to her before in that I think the tone of her voice comes off as condescending when she does that.

As a kid she broke a lot of bones doing stupid things. She said she tries crazy stuff because she has no fear. I do not believe her stories previous injuries were to cover up physical abuse. I believe she may have done these things because of impulse and possibly attention seeking.

At her current workplace, there are office politics, and they are legitimate, it is not just my wife who experiences them. There is one known passive-aggressive bully that has legitimately given her (and others) trouble. I have witnessed, and even helped her to devise plans (which don't involve lying) to defeat this person. These plans are very elaborate and have backup plans to account for multiple contingencies to ensure a "check mate" type of approach where she can't lose. One of the things she actually brags about pulling off is using her small stature and perceived naivety to especially convince others she is helpless and being bullied - she plays the waif! Have I been part of this also?

Really, this is like watching a movie unfold now. Stuff from the past few years is adding up and making sense. I fear that stuff that doesn't necessary contribute may also get lumped in there also (like I accuse her of, reading in to things too much), but I have no idea what is real and what isn't now.

Thanks for hearing me vent - the past few days have changed my life I think - now I just have to figure out how to address everything. I refuse to become a codependent in this situation, and believe I am strong enough to make sure any codependency I do have does not progress or even stay the same, but rather dissolves. I am now more conscious of things in dealing with her at least. I can forgive her for this and view our poor dynamic differently now, as this is not her intentional fault. I do however realize that just because it is not her fault, it is not okay and it must be addressed. I love my wife deeply, but this aspect of my life has been an emotional trainwreck (which I have thankfully been able to separate out from the other areas of my life) and I am not sure how much longer I can handle it.

I think I will talk to my best friend about this whole situation and ask him his advice. He lives far away, is trustworthy, shares similar values to me, doesn't know her that well, and also doesn't share any mutual friends. I will also seek help of a psychologist, though we live in a semi-rural area and finding somebody trained for BPDers may be difficult. Any further guidance is appreciated. Thanks so much again!

jmdreamer

I feel horrible about posting such intimate details, but in the event it helps us and helps other reading here goes... Selected phrases from the 6-page poem she wrote me early in our relationship, demonstrating characteristics consistent with BPD:

- I grew more dependent on your smile
- Until I couldn't imagine my life without you in it
- I never knew before knowing you how empty my life had been
- I thought love wasn't part of my destiny - I didn't deserve it
- I am not the same woman I was six weeks ago
- Your trust in me has taught me to trust in you
- I lived without being love and I hurt and I grew, and believed I wasn't meant to be loved and therefore in turn wouldn't be capable of being loved.
- I've spent much of my life scared and afraid of love, making myself and others believe I didn't need it
- I chose relationships that were doomed from the start, to show myself I didn't deserved to love or be loved.

Much of this should have been a gigantic red warning flag with regard to her history I guess (and she did tell me about her family history, so I understood why she was telling me these things in the poem), but I am not trained in mental health.

Amongst all of the other wonderful things she had to say in there about how much she loved me, and all of the little details about what she loved about me and why, this is the most saddening:

- I value most the way we talk about anything anytime anywhere

Now, silence. I have to watch my words when I do speak. Sometimes, it seems it is best for me not to speak at all, out of fear of what the reaction will be. I often feel like I am being interrogated on the simplest little things.


Everything she wrote in that poem was mutual. The feelings were real for both of us. It is just now I am realizing that she felt that way because she was trying to be me - this wasn't the real her I guess.

That is what is so disappointing here - I have been trying so hard all of these year to get the real her back. Unfortunately, I think this is the real her - what I met and fell in love with wasn't.

Has she literally forgotten these feelings and would not recall that this was true? Or does she know how they are there, but just chooses not to acknowledge them and admit we had emotional intimacy?

When I first expressed interest in pursuing a relationship with her, she said that it was great, but she wanted to confirm that my desire for her was not out of feeling sorry for her and that she didn't want the relationship if that was my reason. It certainly wasn't even a contributing factor - I found somebody fantastic to share life with, it wasn't pity for her! But that was a hint of victimization.

When she first was coming to visit me in our long distance relationship she triple checked before booking the tickets, because she wanted to give me "outs" in case I changed my mind (lack of confidence that I really liked her and wanted to pursue it). That was her giving me a chance to avoid intimacy I guess, by giving me the tools to second guess myself.

Alright, that's it for my long posts for now It sounds like the next step is dealing directly with a trained professional, but in the mean time, I will happily take any further advice I can!

Uptown

I believe you would be better served by a mainstream psychologist. That 17 year old article, written by Paul Hannig, speculates that BPD does not originate in early childhood but, rather, inside the womb when the egg is fighting to keep the sperm from entering. Hannig speculates that, when the couple are in love and their sex is passionate, the sperm has an easy time and all is well.

When the conception is accidental or unwanted, however, the sperm somehow feels rejected and unwanted. That feeling of rejection can be further intensified if the fertilized egg has trouble attaching to the uterus wall. Yet, because neither the sperm nor the egg have a brain, this amazing claim is far from constituting a theory. A theory must make sense. And, of course, because psychologists cannot talk to sperm, this fantasy has received no empirical support in the subsequent 17 years.

It nonetheless might be worth musing over if it had been the product of a brilliant researcher on the cutting edge. But Hannig is no researcher. Instead, he claims his PhD is in Marriage and Family Therapy, which is an applied (not research) field. Most of what students learn in such a program is from experience working in a clinic, not a classroom. They could be great for hands-on therapy but you can forget "cutting edge" and theory.

Further, although Hannig's few publications are scattered all over the Internet, I've never seen him identify the school at which he earned his PhD. At his website, Hannig provides a link to the California bureau that licenses therapists. Because the link is dead, I went to the bureau's website and entered his name, to no avail. Perhaps he is now retired.

His BPD article does offer an abundance of (undocumented and uncited) colorful claims about BPD traits. His comment about BPDers being whisper quiet, for example, is an interesting observation that was dead on correct -- for your W, at least. My problem, however, is that I've met numerous BPDers and have yet to meet one who speaks quietly. Even the "quiet borderlines" speak normally as far as I can tell. They are called "quiet" only because they don't shout and scream in rages. He provides no empirical evidence, for example, that whisper speakers account for a larger share of BPDers than is true for the general population. I therefore got the impression, when I ran across his article five years ago, that Hannig simply pasted together a grocery list of things he had run across -- without first doing the laugh test.