Physical & Mental Health IssuesMarriage and relationships are difficult by themselves, but coping with physical or mental health problems can make things even more difficult.
Does anyone have experience with this? I have finally figured out after 30 years that my husband is Passive Aggressive after doing some search on the internet. Now I understand why we have had such a rocky marriage and why he doesn't trust me, etc.
I am generally a sweet person and have given 130% to my marriage. Still he constantly thinks I am being vindictive, or manipulative. He was the son of an alcoholic mother whom was very dominating and this is typical from what I am reading.
To say the least...I have had a very difficult time in this marriage, and intimacy is not what it should be. I often feel like I am not being made love to, but it's just sex. He lies, and is never wrong. If he hurts me he very rarely says he's sorry. He has cheated on me.
Does anyone else have a partner with this behavior pattern?
First, do a search of this forum because this topic has come up quite a bit. I know because I, too, have a PA husband and know how nerve-wracking living with them can be and read them all!
I would also suggest that you read the book Living With the Passive-Aggressive Man. It was like reading my life story, and while not really all that helpful in ways to deal with them other than to leave, it provided some much-needed validation that *I* wasn't going crazy, like I thought I was. A side note, much of what you will find in doing online research is the suggestion to leave, because it is very, very hard for them to unlearn this behavior; and most don't want to, because it's worked for them for years.
There is also a long, good thread about PA partners on Surviving Infidelity. I don't know if I can link directly to it here, but if you Google SurvivingInfidelity passive aggressive, it will be the first thing to come up.
One of the best books I have read, which is not passive-aggressive specific, is Women Who Love Too Much. I got more from that book than I did a year of therapy. It is more geared towards why WE, the "normal" spouse were attracted to and have stayed with these men. Very, very insightful stuff!
There was also a thread I read (Google healthboards Anyone ever dealt with a passive aggressive person?) and a particular post by Intrigue50 spoke deeply to me.
The bottom line is that your H has serious communication issues that he learned from somewhere -- most likely during childhood -- that existed long before you met him. These guys are of the mind set that they simply cannot express anger, so they act out their feelings of behavior, instead. It is the most maddening thing I have ever been through in my life, so I know how you feel.
Oh, one other article to read is Get Your Angries Out, The Boomerang Relationship. Fabulous article that really hones in on this crazy relationship dynamic and covers both aspects -- the PA and their partner.
The other stuff you wrote hit home, because I could have written it. There is very little, if any, real intimacy with these guys, because you are more an object than a person. So sex feels like...well, sex, rather than an intimate connection. It is just an act for them, something they do, something we play a role in. The lying is constant, and almost pathological. The refusal to apologize....OMG this one burns my a$$ because they have ZERO empathy.
Sorry this is all over the board. I'm actually working right now and was trying to remember some of the good stuff I've read about this off the top of my head.
I would definitely suggest you get individual therapy for yourself, if you do nothing else. Good luck!
I am surprised not to get any responses. Maybe many people are not familiar with the behavior. I have copied and pasted the information:
*FEAR OF DEPENDENCY - Unsure of his autonomy & afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs - usually by trying to control you.
*FEAR OF INTIMACY - Guarded & often mistrusful, he is reluctant to show his emotional fragility. He's often out of touch with his feelings, reflexively denying feelings he thinks will "trap" or reveal him, like love. He picks fights to create distance.
*FEAR OF COMPETITION - Feeling inadequate, he is unable to compete with other men in work and love. He may operate either as a self-sabotaging wimp with a pattern of failure, or he'll be the tyrant, setting himself up as unassailable and perfect, needing to eliminate any threat to his power.
*OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all. He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.
*FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.
*FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds. To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.
*MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises. As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.
*PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.
Thank you nomore....I appreciate your support!! It HAS been so difficult and I realise now why I cannot get close as I would like to him. For the first time in our 30 years together I encouraged him to get help for this behavior, told him it wasn't his fault and that he could google it.
We have come so close to divorce at least 3 times, because of his cheating in an EA and other...but I have a deep connection to him and love him dearly despite. He is classic PA.
Thank you nomore....I appreciate your support!! It HAS been so difficult and I realise now why I cannot get close as I would like to him. For the first time in our 30 years together I encouraged him to get help for this behavior, told him it wasn't his fault and that he could google it.
We have come so close to divorce at least 3 times, because of his cheating in an EA and other...but I have a deep connection to him and love him dearly despite. He is classic PA.
Yes, and the sad part is, you may never be able to have the marriage YOU dream of and deserve WITH HIM. He may just not be capable of being emotionally available enough to allow that to happen. My therapist keeps trying to pound this into my head by saying, He simply cannot give you something he doesn't have to give.
Having done tons of research and reading, I "get" it, but I still fight it, thinking, "How can he NOT know how to open up? How can he NOT see his behavior is screwed up and abnormal, and how happy we could be if he would just do something about it?" Classic codependent behavior right there, I tell you. For years, I've thought, if I just loved him a little more, was just a bit of a better wife, something, anything, I could fix him. It is just now sinking in that I have zero control over him and his behavior; I cannot fix it, no matter what I do. I can only fix me.
If you have had similar thoughts, I definitely would recommend short-term therapy just to start getting healthy yourself. This is where the Women Who Love Too Much book also comes in. It helps US deal with US, because that's all we have the power to deal with.
We have also been on the brink of divorce numerous times, and so I know how hard this has to be on you, to keep giving of yourself, to keep trying to make it better, to keep hanging in there, but still feel like you're beating your head against a wall.
My marriage is a mess, so I don't judge anyone for how they handle theirs. What I will say is this, though: His EAs are NOT OKAY. I don't care what kind of problems he has, they just are not okay and are destructive to you. EAs are often more destructive than physical affairs, because HE is giving someone else what he should be giving YOU, and it's so much deeper than the physical act of sex. You and I already know how sex with these guys isn't an intimate act, but rather simply a physical release, but he is giving of himself emotionally to someone else what he will not give to you.
One of the biggest things I've had to learn to do was set boundaries in my marriage, and this may be something you want to consider yourself. I've had to get real with myself about what my dealbreakers were, about what behaviors I could tolerate but maybe not love. And I've had to protect them with my life, to protect me and my heart from any more anguish at the expense of this relationship.
I am so sorry that you have so much invested in this man, in this marriage, and yet he still can't give you what you need for a fulfilling marriage. 30 years is a long time, and I don't know if I could walk away at that point, either. You guys have a history together that goes back a long way. It's just sad that you deserve so much more than he's giving you and he can't see it, do something about it to fix it. Just makes you want to grab Bandit's 2x4 and whack him up-side the head!!! LOL
Yes, you said it all. I do not blame myself but I have been in the same place as you...trying to fix it, doing what he asked me to, yet it always seems it's not good enough. I have come to realize it's him, and not me, to preserve my self esteem, yet I am sure it has worn on me, no question.
And yes, even though I do see him trying harder to please me after nearly divorcing 5 months ago because of continued deception in sending money to his EA in China, he still accuses me of being vindictive to hurt him and has never taken responsibility for this...I am wondering if we will survive the marriage. He promised to go to therapy but it's up to him now to make the appointment. (we need to find one)
I have learned to call him on everything now and tell him how it hurts me in a matter of fact way. I don't know if that's bad or good, but it makes me feel better to not absorb his mistreatment. What I would do in the past would be to get angry with him and react to his insult, or accusation and mistreatment. I learned that he would then turn it on me that I was the "bad one" violating him. He actually told his EA girl in China that I would yell at him after a few drinks. This was so far from the truth...I might have a few glasses of wine with him and I noticed he had withdrawn from me because of the EA, and so was trying to talk to him...ask him what was wrong...The thing I did wrong was to keep asking him. He perceived himself as the victim of some kind if abuse, when actually I was the one whom was deprived of affection and communication, accountability from him. I didn't find this out until much later that he had confided in her and told her this skewed story.
It goes on and since I cleaned out 1/2 of the bank account to leave him and make a place for myself and our 19 year old daughter in college, now the joint account has been closed down, and I think he will deprive me of funds when he is away traveling because "he can't trust me", when I took action because he had sent money to her in China, after promising me he would sever any relationship with her 4 years ago.
This will not work because I cannot afford all of the expenses, and we have a joint business in real estate renting apartments. There are expenses that come up like insurance, maintenance, etc that needs to be paid for and he makes big money but travels out of state or the country for extended periods..one to 4 months or more at a time. I used the rent checks this time to pay the expenses, but accounted for all of it to him as he left me no money or access to funds for his 3 week trip. We have tenants moving in and maintenance that needed to be done. And yet he says to me in an email today "Where are the rent checks ? I think you are just looking for an excuse to keep the rent checks to yourself. I thought we agreed that the rent checks were for the mortgages not to be used to hurt me ?"
WTF am I supposed to do? I wrote him back and held him accountable for not leaving me any funds, but I have to say I am nervous. I am unemployed and getting less $ that I have been. If he withholds funds from me now I think we will be done as I will not stand for that abuse.
I was going to file and didn't...one more try. 30 years is a long time after raising two great kids together and many good times. But the kicker is he never said he wouldn't contact her again. He said he couldn't give me anything. What am I stupid?
I am going to see a therapist Monday (new one) and also attend Co-Dependent meetings. I do need help to get stronger. Sometimes unfortunately love isn't enough.
I too, have a PA hubby. I understand all too well the crazy-making and emptiness that comes from being in a relationship with someone who is passive aggressive.
Nothing more to add, really. There are a lot of great links and info here already.
Awareness must be a huge relief for you! Posted via Mobile Device
I just wanted to add..YES that EA is not OK and I have made that clear to him. He worked in China for a year and this is how it happened. It was very hurtful to find emotional writing to her, asking how her day went, asking about dancing, asking about her studies. (she was 21 at the time studying to be a doctor, and he was 56) Yet I was alone and missing him at home, and taking care of the real estate business, working full time, and taking care of the kid's needs.
So I know how much more hurtful an EA is from a physical affair, but for all I know it may have been that as well. She bought him intimate gifts, like a wallet with the inscription on it that said "when I am with you I am a better person, because of the way you make me feel about myself" or something like that. She worked for him 3 times a week, and he didn't pay her all of the money he owed her (I think for an excuse to keep contact)
The reason I am back on this website is because after the near divorce recently, he just applied for a job in Shanghai and I found it on the one email of his I have access to. He claims he did a bundle of applications through this headhunter, but all I saw was the "Secret and Confidential" response from the company that he didn't get the job. This raised my stress level to over the top....post trauma stress!
Thank you so much! I hope you had a nice Mother's Day too! I am trying to focus on other things instead of being hurt he didn't call me today. (he's working in TX) He's angry with me for confronting him on applying for a job in China, and claims he sent his resume in for a bundle of jobs through a headhunter, and that he's not anywhere near qualified for this position. He said "he doesn't know how his resume was even sent there" These are all lies, and I read the job description and he is very qualified. It requires a BS and he has one...How can you apply for a job and not know you are doing so? Ludicrous...
He then turned on me saying "where are the rent checks? We agreed they would be spent only on mortgage payments. I think you did this to keep the rent checks to yourself to hurt me" We have rental property yes, but he left me no access to any funds when he left, and I had to pay the guy that mows the lawns for us and buy a new mattress set for our daughter coming home from college as we agreed on, re-register the cars, and many other things I didn't have money for. I am unemployed now and have a small check coming in every week. Therefore I had to use some of the rent checks for these things, but I gave him an accounting of what was spent. I explained this all to him in an email and told him this was hurtful to accuse me of this, and I never ever wanted to hurt him...he hasn't responded. This is the treatment I typically get.
I fear now that because I had taken funds out of the bank to divorce him the beginning of the year (because I caught him again sending money to his girlfriend in China), that he will not give me access to any funds now, which is a form of abuse. I only took the money under the advice of my attorney to give my daughter and myself a good start, renovate a bathroom in an apartment in a house we own we were moving into. (there was no bathroom as it had been gutted out).
I also told him he needs to get help and mentioned Passive Aggressive behavior and that it's not his fault, but typical of children that had been hurt by dominating alcoholic parents such as himself, and how I believe it has hurt our relationship.
I will not hear from him now, and will not get a response...
Oh, the infamous silent treatment that these guys are so frigging fond of. Mine pulls this all the time -- usually by disappearing for weeks on end -- and it drives me insane. I know I keep recommending all this other reading, but Google silent treatment as a form of abuse. It is one of the most hurtful things a person can do -- they literally make you feel like you don't exist. It cuts deep.
I'm not surprised that your H is looking for a job in China, as his EA with this gal has lasted a long time, and he took it a step farther in sending MARITAL funds to her. That is just wrong on so many levels that it makes my stomach turn. Does this gal know he's married? Have you ever tried to confront her yourself? I would be worried that with the EA continuing and his looking for a job that would take him to China, that he intends to take this relationship with her to another level -- if it hasn't gone there already.
I honestly think that he could take a job in China, carry on with this gal, stay married to you, and think nothing of it, and expect you to be okay with it. These guys have no conscious whatsoever, and it's almost like they can justify any wrongdoing by making it someone else's fault. They are masters at blame shifting and avoiding accepting responsibility for the choices they make.
Do you not have any access to marital money, at all, without having him dole it out to you? I just don't understand this, and I would not tolerate it. Honestly, your having to beg for money or account for every penny while he maintains full control over it, and sends it to some other woman, is beyond unfair and wrong. I don't even know what to say.
I think it's great that you are starting to call him on his behavior, because even though it doesn't necessarily stop it, it puts them on notice that you are onto them and not putting up with it anymore. I do it on my end, too. I wonder if in this case, you were to tell him, "Fine, you don't want to give me enough money, I can't pay for everything. Something is going to fall through the cracks and not get paid." I've found with mine that if there are no consequences that he feels -- and that hurt -- he doesn't learn anything. I don't know your situation to know how you could work this, whether with the real estate or something else, but until HE starts feeling the effects of HIS actions, nothing will change. In my case, last summer when he pulled his crap, I stopped paying his motorcycle payment. He wasn't paying any bills here or giving me any money; I damn sure wasn't paying for his bike. Well, when he started getting phone calls that they were going to repossess his bike because no payments had been made for four months, all of a sudden, he started worrying. It sucks to have to do things this way, but it's the only way that gets through to them. Maybe you could suggest if he doesn't want to give you enough money, you put the property up for sale. You can't work miracles, and he can't have it both ways.
Have you considered just filing for divorce and asking for temporary spousal support orders, like right now, and having a restraining order issued in regard to the marital funds? Something that would guarantee that he can't move marital funds, send it all to China, or otherwise ensure that if D day comes the money that you are entitled to as part of the marriage will still be there? I say this because last summer, my H left, never gave me a dime for support of either our marital home or our kids, and there's nearly $10,000 unaccounted for from that time period. To this day, I don't know where that money went.
When you talk to your H, does he seem to have any interest in staying in the marriage, in working on it sincerely, or is he just staying because it's comfortable?
Your husband has admitted to an ongoing EA with another woman, is applying for jobs that will take him closer to her and lying to you about it; he is withholding marital funds and making you essentially beg for money to pay joint debts/expenses, and otherwise treating you horribly by way of the silent treatment. What are you getting from this relationship right now? Why do you want to stay? I read a lot of the posts at Baggage Reclaim and one of the things Natalie always says is, "He's not that special, and you're not that desperate." I couldn't say it any better right now. You don't deserve any of this crap your H is putting you through. Don't simply accept it. Know, and believe, that you deserve better than this.
Someone else on this board did an exercise when they were caught up in "but I love her" where essentially they made a list of all the things they would really be losing. In your case it would be something like, a liar, a cheater, a thief (in re the marital funds), a controlling abuser. When I did this exercise, it helped put my situation in perspective. I wasn't really losing anything I wanted to hang onto.
You see it a lot on this board, and it was actually addressed in that Women Who Love Too Much book, which is the 180. You may want to try to implement it with your H and see how it works. I can tell you as soon as I started worrying only about me and my kids, and making our lives better, with no regard for him whatsoever, he was ready to start listening. Can't say it has done much in changing his behavior, but it got his attention in a way I couldn't before.
Thank you for the response and all of the time you put into it! It did help me think and see things more clearly.
Yes the silent treatment...but I did the same right before as soon as I saw he got a response from that job in China as I was devasted....just more of the same. I didn't do it to be mean I just couldn't talk to him. I did tell him when he asked what was wrong.
[I]"I'm not surprised that your H is looking for a job in China, as his EA with this gal has lasted a long time, and he took it a step farther in sending MARITAL funds to her. That is just wrong on so many levels that it makes my stomach turn. Does this gal know he's married? Have you ever tried to confront her yourself? "
Yes I did call her on the phone from the number I found in his wallet, in China 4 years ago and was very emotional the first time saying that she slept with my husband and I wanted it to stop. She was in tears and responded "No just friends!"
Then I called her a second time and talked to her in a more calm discussion. She told me she talked with my husband at great length about our marriage and he had told her I yell at him (This is a LIE! I would try to talk to him to communicate when we had a fight to work it out and he would interpret it as attacking him) and he told her was going to leave me. She said she told him he should try to work it out. She said she felt hurt when I came to visit him in China with our daughter mid-year that he told her I wanted nothing to do with her. She said she wanted to talk to me and tell me I needed to stop yelling at him to try to help. In reality I asked where "the girls that worked for him" were and he told me that she had gone home and wasn't around and at the time (I thought she was just a college kid working for him and had no idea what was really going on.) I never dreamed he would cheat on me with a 20 year old emotionally! She is our son's age! Last time I talked to her she said she would severe all contact with him. I also know she is very intelligent and was studying to be a Dr. at the time. I have since found out her father is a well-known doctor in China...so she comes from some $.
He knows I will not be alright with what he has been doing. I think what he IS doing is carrying on contact and friendship with her so that if our marriage ends he will have her. I believe he sent the money to her because she graduated from college...It was July last year and I can do the math. I think he feels very insecure about our marriage after what just happened, and as you said this is an ongoing relationship/friendship. You would think he would try even harder now wouldn't you? He puts little effort into staying connected with me when he's away (first time since this near divorce). Even though we just had out 25th anniversary and have been getting along great...still now I feel like I am out of sight/out of mind. Him applying for that job was like a knife in my gut. Even my therapist said no headhunter will send a resume to a company without your consent.
As for the money yes, I now have only the rent checks that tenants pay us once a month. He left me no cash going away on a month-long job. I have thought of telling him I will be keeping $1000 of them to myself for security if he doesn't leave me anything. After all I am working renting apartments, wallpapering, hiring contractors, signing paperwork...managing the business. (all but the bookkeeping) I have also thought I would simply tell him we need to have a joint business account again for the rental property business, and a household one for me to pay the extra things. But you have to understand in January I took 1/2 of the cash in the bank to divorce him...but because of what HE DID again...Yes MARITAL money sent to her without my knowledge. So now especially with his P/A behavior he will not trust ME.
It IS wrong on so many levels what he has done sending her money. But I was in a tough position then because we had to move out of a big house we were renting into a smaller space...no way I could have done it without him. Now we are in a duplex WE own and the expenses are MUCH less...so if the marriage ends I will be able to survive. As my girlfriend put it I will have "squatters rights". But I also have my 19 year old college daughter with us..I moved here with open heart though hoping for a new start,relationship turnaround, and I still hope for that, but I feel discouraged now. When we moved though I have to say he seemed to be trying and seemed to be happier. We would walk downtown holding hands. It is empty nest time for us.
The other thing I am thinking of doing is telling him this is not going to work if he doesn't give me $ when he leaves, and he is going to have to make a commitment to the marriage, go to therapy as promised and trust me. If he doesn't do what he has been doing I won't divorce him...and he should be able to trust me, but I don't think he will....(give me $) If he doesn't then I think I will leave him. I have put up with way too much as you said! I really want him to find a job locally and not travel for work anymore. I might throw that into the mix. Do you think I should make him and ultimatum? I never liked to do that...and I don't think it would work anyway.
"Someone else on this board did an exercise when they were caught up in "but I love her" where essentially they made a list of all the things they would really be losing. In your case it would be something like, a liar, a cheater, a thief (in re the marital funds), a controlling abuser. When I did this exercise, it helped put my situation in perspective. I wasn't really losing anything I wanted to hang onto."
Yes you are right, and I have overlooked the lies over the many years when they didn't affect me or the kids directly and it was innocent storytelling, but now that they do I am thinking twice. Except, I would be shocked in therapy how he would tell a story to the therapist about our interaction that was a total lie...it made the therapy ineffective, and I would get really angry after the session. I have had also had so much trouble communicating with him because he would say "I have told you that many times" when I know he hasn't once, or he will change a story. Why isn't it that therapists aren't tuned in to this behavior? Is it something new? Even now I felt like I was the one telling my new therapist about it.
My new therapist just said I need to decide what I want to do, and her assessment of what I was telling her was he wants me there when he comes home, but when he goes away he wants to "do what he wants" and he has had all of the power in the relationship. She was right on. And now I have even less power if he keeps the $ from me....so if that's the case it will not last. I do not want a marriage of convenience...I have too much passion for life, and too much love to give and receive.
We shall see. I only know I feel very discouraged and I am thinking about a better life with a sweet man out there whom will appreciate me as I deserve. I have been a really good wife to him...consistently. I have NEVER cheated on him and have always supported him. Yes we have had our fights, and I may not be perfect but I have always been there for him and let him lead which I know he feels better about, but maybe that was a mistake.
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Passive Agressive Behavior 
