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Are you down with the BPD?

34K views 217 replies 36 participants last post by  EllaSuaveterre 
#1 ·
While the title is tongue in cheek, it seems there is a BPD phenomenon running rampant on this forum. Another poster and I spoke on the phone about this. While I have no doubt as to BPD being prevalent, it seems it is now the "en vogue" thing now.

So many people on here are so quick to diagnose their spouses with something to explain away irrational behavior. IMO, some people are just screwed up and by trying to label them with something you are trying to justify their bad behavior.

I suppose thinking your spouse has a personality disorder might help in some way but, ultimately the decision to stay and deal with such a person is up to you. Most BPD'ers will never seek the help they need nor will they ever be cured.

Not really expecting many responses on this post, just something that has been on my mind for awhile.
 
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#4 ·
So many people on here are so quick to diagnose their spouses with something to explain away irrational behavior. IMO, some people are just screwed up and by trying to label them with something you are trying to justify their bad behavior.
I've noticed this as well, and I went down that path with my W. I still think there is a possibility that she's a high-functioning BPD, but I'll never know. Maybe it doesn't really matter, b/c she has a number of issues, and all I can do is work on how I interact with her. That would include laying down rock solid boundaries, and knowing when it's time to end this.

Pidge, thanks for sharing your knowledge here.:smthumbup:
 
#5 ·
An MRI study doesn't provide any conclusive evidence that BPD could be a biologically based disorder rather than a personality disorder.

Personally, while I have no doubt about the existence of the personality disorder, I agree with pidge and generally think it's become a convenient and trendy catch-all to justify adult erratic a$$holes, much like the all-pervasive ADHD for kids. Great strides have definitely been made in learning more about the actual disorder and the options for treatment are growing all the time, which is great. I just find it odd that so many people are getting "diagnosed" with a disorder that apparently most therapists and doctors won't tell their patients they have???
 
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#7 ·
I agree with this for the most part. The posters I am aware of have not tried to diagnose just give an awareness of what could be the problem. Everyone exhibits BPD traits at one point or another. Whether or not they are at a diagnostic level though can only be determined by a professional.

FTR, I did NOT diagnose myself. I was diagnosed 7yrs ago by a psychiatrist after his observation of me and my taking the MMPI and the MMPI II.
 
#19 ·
So true. I have noticed this as well and honestly, it gets a little annoying.

Part of me thinks I "used" to be BPD, but given that they usually don't evolve into an awareness like Pidge, I'm skeptical of that now. I started changing my behaviors before therapy. Hell, even before I got married.

So maybe I'm just batsh!t. LoL!!
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#25 ·
...dunno...practically every mental disorder has the same problem.* The disorders mostly don't seem to exist in a binary fashion - it is just a matter of setting a threshold on a continuous 'how crazy are you' variable for diagnostic purposes. (That said, true crazy usually seems to involve positive feedback - so breaking that feedback loop often helps more than you'd expect.) (For evidence, look at the changes in DSM V.)

I think there's some merit in being aware of your spouse's personality. (what crazy are they?) As personality disorders and autism don't respond much to drugs...a spouse is mostly limited to changing their own behavior to adapt to the their partner's crazy.

Even though there is a lot of merit to the 'healthy behavior is healthy behavior' thesis, there are a broad range of healthy behaviors - some of which will work better depending on your spouse's personality. So, yep, figuring out if your spouse has traits characteristic of BPD - whether or not they actually have the disorder - can be helpful. As an example, a BPD spouse may react very well to validation...while an autistic spouse may meltdown because you're using too many words.) My opinion is that reading a few books and trying stuff at random is likely to be more effective than focusing on any particular trait group.

Also, there's some merit in gauging how crazy your spouse is. For an extreme example, consider MOSIAC threat assessment. (Online test that estimates the odds that your spouse will kill you at any given time. One acquaintance took it...moved abruptly with no forwarding address.) Hopefully more practically, many people in poor R/S aren't particularly aware of 'normal', and getting a baseline is also handy.

...in terms of nature versus nuture...separated twin studies have given a decent answer...about 50%. In practice, most MRI studies I have seen are fairly ambiguous in terms of causality. It appears that the physical structure of the brain changes behavior and that behavior changes the physical structure of the brain. For those seeking to change themselves, it may be best to think of the glass as being half full. Hard work and discipline are likely to change your brain.

--Argyle
*In terms of over-diagnosis, I suspect that BPD-tendencies are overdiagnosed as BPD, but that they tend to be problematic enough that some treatment is a great thing. I suspect that diagnosable BPD/NPDs tend to be underdiagnosed. (I know some insanely hateful women who show all the BPD traits and who are undiagnosed in their 70s. Their daughters are similar.)
 
#27 ·
I don't concern myself with someone's dx. What matters to me is how they can relate to me. Some folks make an effort to manage whatever their dx or emotional state is so that they can effectively and meaningfully relate to others. The experience of me plus the other person plus the environment we're in, is what matters to me, if that is a good thing, or leaves something to be desired.

Someone can have a trivial issue that causes really big problems...because they see it as trivial themselves and don't realize what a large effect it has on their relationship space...and someone can have a serious issue, that they manage very well, and thus have a great relationship space, whatever that is...friend, acquaintance, etc.

It's more about what they bring to the table, than what goes on in the kitchen.
 
#29 ·
...some things to be careful of...

In practice, 'personality disorders' are fairly squidgy. (Which is one reason DSM V is moving towards lumping them together.) So, something like 30% of BPDs have co-morbid NPD. It is probably clearer to think of someone as having a personality disorder with traits XYZ.

Also, in my experience (and the experience of a few others), high sensitivity autistic women can exhibit a lot of BPD traits. I suspect (but have no real basis) that a significant fraction of people with BPD diagnosis are at least mildly autistic and vice-versa. Something a lot of people don't realize is that about 30% of people diagnosed with autism are highly sensitive people. So, not like Spock. More like someone with a gag on their mouth, who sees everything in black and white, is out-of-touch with their emotions, has really high anxiety, and tends to meltdown and start hitting things when frustrated.

...eg...my wife was diagnosed BPD, but with extremely low empathy. And she can't multitask, has mild sensory overload, communication issues, and really odd ritualistic behavior as a child. Kind of a neurotic female version of Data from Star Trek. Or, Rudy Simone (Aspie author), who apparently was diagnosed bipolar and institutionalized for a while. Or, the lady from an Asperger's support groups who seriously resembles my wife and is also in DBT. Or Penelope Trunk (see blog.)

The bright side is that the same sort of therapy is recommended for both groups...more or less - so misdiagnosis probably doesn't matter that much. The dark side is that at least some of those people are confused by parts of the BPD diagnosis. (And sitting in group feeling nothing in common with 'those silly emotional women.') My wife, at least, has been making more rapid adjustments since she figured out the Aspie thing - and coping techniques for Aspie women have had noticeable effectiveness on some of our more stubborn issues. I dunno, but I suspect autistic traits might be somewhat common in women with BPD diagnoses - and some of those traits may be more easily addressed when people are aware of them.*

The characteristics I've noticed (relative to very peripheral observation of more 'typical' BPDs)...a strange innocence (Oh....aigh...I just realized that all those men I dated probably wanted to sleep with me.)...extreme unempathetic honesty...atypical female violence (jumping in front of a tractor...threatening policemen...baseball bats)...lengthy monologues...unreasonable fear of people (did I offend him?)...weird conversational patterns.

...I am very far from an expert...but I've found limited support for this guess in the medical literature. (One paper indicating that autism predisposed people to BPD-like traits. I take that with a grain of salt...publication pressure is so fierce nowadays that you can find a paper indicating practically anything.)

--Argyle
*Or, to put it another way, maybe some of our MCs would have been better able to control their temper's if they'd been aware that my wife was having genuine comprehension issues instead of faking misunderstanding to divert the conversation.
 
#45 ·
DarkSide, there is growing evidence that the traits are the worst at puberty and subside somewhat by 18, at which time they level off. Then, it is believed, they subside a little more at about age 44. See, e.g., the 2008 study results at Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions. The result is that there is much ballyhoo about BPD not being as "chronic" as previously thought. Well, that certainly is good news for the BPDers.

Yet, from the point of view of a "Non" having to deal with all the abuse, I don't think that "mellowing" gives much relief to the abused spouses. For one thing, does it really matter that a BPDer drops from meeting 100% of the diagnostic criteria to meeting only 80% or 90% of the criteria?

To the statisticians, this improvement means A LOT because, given the absurd binary system now being used for diagnosis, the implication is that lots of people have switched from the "has BPD" category to the "has no BPD" category in their old age. To the abused spouses, however, this improvement may mean only a reduction in temper tantrums from once every two weeks to once every two-and-a-half weeks. The misery index, then, barely changes. (What makes a radical change to the misery index is when that 1% of BPDers work hard in therapy, as Pidge and other BPDers on this forum have done.)

Another thing that bothers me about these studies is that I've never seen a distinction made between the BPDers who are high functioning and those that are low functioning. This is troubling because, if nearly all the improvements are being made by low functioning people who are becoming high functioning, there may be little or no improvement happening with the folks who were high functioning to begin with.

This is troubling for two reasons. One is that we Nons would not date the low functioning BPDers, much less marry them. Hence, if we are married to a BPDer spouse -- as I was for 15 years -- she is already high functioning. So our lives will not improve AT ALL if the improvements are generally being made by only the low functioning BPDers.

The other reason it is troubling is that, because LF BPDers are in such severe pain, they are far more willing to seek help and work hard to make improvements. In contrast, HF BPDers are extremely resistant to therapy and rarely have the self awareness to even acknowledge having the issues. For these reasons, I remain very skeptical that an abused spouse is going to see any substantial improvement when his BPDer partner reaches middle age.

Certainly, I didn't even though I spent a small fortune taking my BPDer exW to a team of psychologists and MCs for weekly visits for 15 years. At the end, she had me arrested and thrown into jail on a bogus charge of "brutalizing her." If you would like to read about some of my experiences with a middle-age "improved and mellowed" BPDer, please see my post in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522.
 
#48 ·
I don't think BPD is hip at all. I've never been officially diagnosed with it but reading about it is like looking in a mirror. My therapist put ptsd with anxiety on the insurance form I think its just because she had to put 'something' there. So many things fit with me that she could have picked anything really. I was that messed up.

I call myself BPD here only because it resonates and then people know what the old me was like before 4 years of therapy. PTSD with anxiety just doesn't quite cover the magnitude of my craziness. LOL
 
#52 ·
I've tried so many times to explain to my husband what this feels like to no avail. He never understood what it truly feels like to have crazy thoughts, out of control mood swings and to be in constant emotional pain. To feel truly crazy at times.

He also doesn't fully understand what it takes to keep this at bay either. As so many people say there is no cure for this it's only managed. Every day this gets easier but the crazy thoughts still pop up and I have to deal with them. Talk myself down, remind myself of the truth and that everything is in fact okay.
 
#59 ·
When my wife and I went to counseling I told the counselor I thought she was bi-polar. Counselor said no, probably borderline. My wife has never had stable relationships, has cheated on every man she has been with. Has huge anxiety, wakes up nightly to panic attacks and can't breath, has grandious thoughts. She often relates our marriage to some old romantic movie. She was shot when she was 27 while bartending. Has a very sensitive personality and is easily offended. I think she also has symptoms of NPD. She never apoligizes. When I ask her apologize she comes back with, "I've already forgiven myself." She openly says, "It's all about me." With our relationship issues. She constantly insults me and gives me ultimatums. She threatens to leave me (she actaully did 2 months ago) if I don't meet all her demands.
 
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