Re: Well, SA, I thought we made some good progress toward common ground
I don't want anyone to get Banned here.
Well, if any common ground CAN be found -even if it is JUST that you don't think I hate all Christians or are blaming them for my pentecostal past, I guess this is a good thing. So if we find ourselves crossing paths on another thread in the future , you won't have to guess my underlying intentions. I hope.
I can't Look at Borg or even "The Purpose Drive life" through the eyes you do though. I have that book also on my shelf.
I am not really worried about DEATH either, although I want to live a LONG LONG time yet, hopefully live to see my children's children. I worried more about death when I was a Christian cause I always feared GOd was going to bring some catastrophic upon me -cause he disciplines HIS OWN - since I was haphazard in my obeying and felt I was trampling on his sacrifice >> talk about GUILT. (See Judging myself was a major problem THEN too!). My mother used to have this picture on her wall, it has Jesus face, thorns pushed so hard into his head blood dripping down, tears, agony on that face. You just wanted to crinige when you looked upon it. Then movies like Mel Gibson's 'The Passion". Parents took KIDS to see this!! But would shreik if they dared see a little skin in an R rated movie, something is very twisted about that -in my mind.
To believe MAN did this to this man Jesus --is a grave injustice -but to believe GOD required it- such brutality - because of how wretched we are . I simply can't get past that.
It is much less of an issue for me now that I do not look upon God through those particular glasses. Whether it be correct or not , time & death will reveal , it is a chance I am willing to take. I trust my God is loving and deals with us where we are. That is my position, and yes, I am a stubborn one, but it is only becaues of how much I have considered. Or I would be the 1st to admit, I know nothing. I still don't know anything for sure BUT I have more peace with that. For me, for my family, for my life, THAT is immeasurable .
But at the same time, I am not someone who would ever say "NEVER' -because I desire to be "open" to all things. So long as it is Reasonable to my mind and has "heart" with it.
I agree with the Cholesteroal thing. Just as I have Christian & Non Christian books on particular issues, so I have books that recommend statins & 3 who state every ill about them in vivid detail. I believe they can cause a terrible loss of muscle in some, testosterone reduction, and TRUE, our family members seem to play more of a role than #'s, it is more about inflammation I believe.....that is why I don't have my husband taking 40mg of a statin every day - that his Doctor threw at him, No blood relatives died of any heart problems before age 76 - and they didn't take the pills. We are taking the RISK against Doctors advice . My cholesterol is high too - I feel wonderful, no early Heart attacks in either side of my family either, they live into their 90's. They haven't unlocked the whole story yet in the understanding of cholesterol's relation to heart disease.
Sorry, I have always had issues with the King David story and why that was OK for him to have Bathsheba's husband killed. Yeah, I hear you, but just seems ANYBODY can do any thing then ............He obvioulsy was highly remoreseful, I don't know, it seems VERY VERY wrong that he was able to take his wife. But then it still comes down to the Heart , it said -David had a HEART after God, so this is why .
And why we can't judge others, as I would have judged David by the standards and laws of the BOOK, but see....even God doesn't always do that. He sees the heart where we can not. Where it doesnt' make sense to us.
None of us know. And for us to brag to another about all we do, well that is unGodly too, we are not supposed to let our left hand know what our right hand is doing (Matt 6:3)
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Oh, yeah, that was Jesus, the guy you don't believe in
I never said I don't believe he existed, no , not at all, I just question the virginity thing - resurrection, all the supernatural . I heartily believe he was a Great inspiring Teacher with MUCH MUCH MUCH wisdom from above. Oh yes! A radical for sure, "Jesus Christ Superstar" likely painted a clearer picture of how it really was than any movie made, it had so much raw enthusiam -even if some may not have agreed with it.
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Matt 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
Truth is I probably love my husband and children MORE , I sure THINK about them more!! they are admittably #1. So easy to say to DO this, to walk & live it with assurance you are DOING it to HIS specifications, that is another matter entirely.
See I would be judging myself again.
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He speaks to me in the rush of the wind and the beauty of the sunrise
Would you believe me if I said the same ? As I am sure MANY even in the last thread would say something very similar. Who am I judge their relationship with their God.
Men are divided over everything. If you are going to be at odds with people, you might was well know what you are talking about
We need to study to make ourselves approved . Rightly dividing that Word Of truth -but even then ha ha , we will still disagree !! Makes for a good debate anyway . And to think I was never on a debate team, darn I would have enjoyed that!
Let's see, what I have learned here... I did listen to you, even when I felt you was my #1 biggest enemy in life & internet, about some of my threads & deleted them, TOO much information. It was good advice.
I have always felt ...if you hang in there, not giving up , try to be respectful , in time, if communication continues, surely you will have some meetings of the mind . SOMETHING. But even if not, to respecfully "agree to disagree" without slaughtering your opponent is a wise thing.
We can all only do what we can do. If you are all correct and I am just "all wet" right now, Mommy22 is right, it has to be breathed upon me from the Divine -to see a new light in this area. It is not that I have not seeked, God knows this.
...So Parrothead, this was a nice little Excursion, we've worn it out, ticked people off, Mod's warnings. Ha ha
Husband told me the other night, he would rather me drop the theological , as I talked alot about this, and get back to , well, what originally brought me to this forum.
Re: Well, SA, I thought we made some good progress toward common ground
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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous
I never said I don't believe he existed, no , not at all, I just question the virginity thing - resurrection, all the supernatural . I heartily believe he was a Great inspiring Teacher with MUCH MUCH MUCH wisdom from above.
I (one of the three stooges I'm assuming) never said I didn't believe there is a supernatural being (God) or a person named Jesus either. What I question is the moral superiority of some religions to think they have the one and only truth at the exclusions of all other opinions and then become very angry about it when someone simply states that they believe something different than that. It is even more hard to swallow knowing that there are so many odd turns and twists and little known facts about how Christianity came to be and also how it evolved over the centuries to be what it is today, which is radically different than what it was 2000 years ago. If a person doesn't even know why they have the beliefs they have or why they practice certain customs it just strikes me as unbelieveable that the can claim to have the TRUTH when they don't even know the source of how it all came to be.
For example, who wrote the books of the bible? Most scholars say it was Paul (formerly known as Saul the bounty hunter) who wrote possibly as much as 80% of the new testament, and he supposedly never even met Jesus. Mot Christians I know, when I ask them about this, look at me like I lost my mind. They tell me that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Most religious scholars don't think this is the case. Who wrote them? Nobody knows.
And those four Gospels, how did they become the ones chosen to be canonized into the bible? It was decided a few hundred years later when the Emperor Constantine demanded that it all be decided once and for all and then all the other gospels that were popular at the time were declared heretical. Not all Christians at the time believed the same thing. One view won out and won the approval of Rome and all other groups and views were instantly declared heretical. What if the ones that were banned were the ones closer to the teachings of Jesus? One historical account (which is debated by scholars) states that all the books that were being considered for canonization were placed under a table and that in the morning some of them were found on top of the table by divine intervention.
And what about Christian customs and holidays? What about Christmas, Easter, All Saint's Day, etc? They're all copies of Pagan holidays. Most Christians just roll their eyes when you tell them this. I don't make it a habit of saying this because I don't want people thinking I'm some kind of a new age weirdo or a trouble maker. Some churches don't celebrate these holidays for this very reason. Everything about Christmas come from religions that came before Christianity. Most religions that existed at the time (whether they were from the area around Rome, from northern Eurpoe, from Asia) celebrated a rebirth of their "God" around the time of the Winter Solstice. The Christmas customs celebrated now are a combination of a few different traditions from other religions - Santa Claus, the Christmas tree, the fact that it is an evergreen, the mistletoe, the Yule log, decorating a tree - all came from religions that existed prior to Christianity. I could go on and on about what these particular customs actually mean and why they were practiced.
How and why do Christians practice these "Pagan" traditions? Because after being outlawed by the Roman Empire - now under the influence of Christianity thanks to Constantine - it was now becoming apparent that the people who still adhered to the native religions were not going to convert because they were pissed about how oppressive the Christians were being to them. Remember, the Romans before Christianity allowed the conquered people to keep their own religions as long as they swore allegiance to Rome. Now all of a sudden the Christians are trying to take away their religions. So what happened? In the 7th century Pope Gregory I declared the the church would adopt many of the "Pagan" customs and traditions in order to make it more palatable to the rural people who were hold outs when it came to converting. So Christianity kind of became a smerge of Christianity and Pagan religions.
Even things we just accept today doesn't have any basis in early Christianity. Our concept of the devil is radically different then what it was in early Christianity. It think the devil evolved as a propaganda tool to facilitate the conversion of Pagans to Christians.
And the demonizing of other religions is something that is a big turnoff. I understand the need to demonize all the competing religions at the time to gain a foothold and then rise to dominance, but a lot of those old beliefs are still held and propagated today. For instance this word "Pagan" that was invented by the Christian church. Most Christians thinks it means someone who worships the devil. It actually comes from the latin word "paganus" which means a country dweller or someone who lives in the countryside. At the time of Christianity's rise to power the urban areas were the first to accept Christianity. Those living in the country, closer to nature, were reluctant to give up their native religions for this new belief and this new God. (Hmmm, city slickers still latch onto the craziest things even today - disco, polyester leisure suits). Many of these native religions were more in tune with nature, the seasons, the cycles of the moon, etc. Christianity was completely alien to them. Anyone who didn't accept Christianity, anyone who clung to their old religions were labeled as Pagans. The word now is used to collectively describe anyone who doesn't adhere to an Abrahamic religion (Judeaism, Christianity, Islam). This would include Hinduism, Buddhism, Native American religions, etc. Most Christians today believe anyone that is Pagan "is in league with the devil". This is ridiculous. The only religion that has any concept of the devil is Christianity (and Satanism). No other religions even recognize the existence that there is a devil.
So when I hear someone say that they KNOW the TRUTH and everyone else is lost and is destined to spend eternity in hell I think they are clueless about what they know and what they think they know.
In person I'm a pretty accommodating guy. I know a lot of Christians. Many of my closest friends are Christians and they really have no clue about what I opinion is. When a Christian starts talking about something about their religion I just go along with it. When a Christian tells me that they will be praying for me I thank them and tell them that I really appreciate it. But when someone tells me that I am lost because I don't know the truth and they know the truth at the exclusion of all others and gets ugly with me about it they will have to defend their statements. Usually they can't without resorting to quoting scripture, which to me is like a dog spinning around in circles chasing it's tail.
Re: Well, SA, I thought we made some good progress toward common ground
Well, if it isn't the religion expert...
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Originally Posted by Mike188
I (one of the three stooges I'm assuming) never said I didn't believe there is a supernatural being (God) or a person named Jesus either. What I question is the moral superiority of some religions to think they have the one and only truth at the exclusions of all other opinions and then become very angry about it when someone simply states that they believe something different than that.
I question the moral superiority of anybody who says otherwise. Who, for example, are you to say whether anything is or is not morally or logically correct? By what authority do you do this?
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It is even more hard to swallow knowing that there are so many odd turns and twists and little known facts about how Christianity came to be and also how it evolved over the centuries to be what it is today, which is radically different than what it was 2000 years ago.
This may come as a shock to you but the world itself is radically different than it was 2000 years ago...
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If a person doesn't even know why they have the beliefs they have or why they practice certain customs it just strikes me as unbelieveable that the can claim to have the TRUTH when they don't even know the source of how it all came to be.
Yeah, this is what you accused me of in the other thread but the reality is that I DO KNOW, and you are once again making a false assumption, as ustabes often do.
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For example, who wrote the books of the bible? Most scholars say it was Paul (formerly known as Saul the bounty hunter)
Uh, that would be Saul of Tarsus...
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who wrote possibly as much as 80% of the new testament, and he supposedly never even met Jesus.
Well, if you'd have been paying attention in Sunday school you'd know that Paul DID meet Jesus on the road to Damascus.
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Mot Christians I know, when I ask them about this, look at me like I lost my mind.
It's probably because they have read the account of Paul meeting Jesus in the first part of Acts 9.
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They tell me that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Most religious scholars don't think this is the case. Who wrote them? Nobody knows.
This was common practice in the first century. Students often wrote in the name of their teachers...
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And those four Gospels, how did they become the ones chosen to be canonized into the bible?
Well, you see, St. Athanasius looked at all the writings circulating at the time, took notice of the ones that were widely accepted, the ones that were clearly fantasy, and the ones that were obviously heresy. What became the canon of scripture was chosen by consensus of the people who read them.
Do you have a problem with consensus?
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Not all Christians at the time believed the same thing.
Not all PEOPLE believed the same thing. You can't for example, say that Jesus was not who he said he was and still call yourself "Christian". Christians can and do disagree, but not about the pillars of the faith.
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One view won out
That would be the majority of scholars at that time...
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and won the approval of Rome and all other groups and views were instantly declared heretical.
They were declared heretical before that, but at least the heretics were allowed to explain themselves.
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What if the ones that were banned were the ones closer to the teachings of Jesus?
Have you ever heard of the Didache? It is probably the oldest Christian text we have, basically a distillation of the Christian belief, and it's not in the Bible, either. It was not "banned", it was just not added.
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One historical account (which is debated by scholars) states that all the books that were being considered for canonization were placed under a table and that in the morning some of them were found on top of the table by divine intervention.
Gosh, I wonder why they debate it.
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And what about Christian customs and holidays? What about Christmas, Easter, All Saint's Day, etc? They're all copies of Pagan holidays.
Well, our predominant feast day is the first day of the week, Sunday. What Pagan holiday was that copied from?
Jesus, of course, was a Jew, and he celebrated the Passover Himself. Our Eucharistic feast is theologically related to Passover. Some of us even do Passover Seders, I do, too.
What Pagan Holiday were these feasts taken from?
And evidently you have never been to a Christmas or Easter service, both reputed to be Pagan Holidays as well.
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Most Christians just roll their eyes when you tell them this.
As well they should.
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Some churches don't celebrate these holidays for this very reason.
Some churches don't drive cars, either. That doesn't mean that Christians can't drive cars.
See, the early church settled all this stuff early on so we wouldn't be slave to every crackpot idea that came along, like not driving cars.
And if you want to get away from the Pagans, you'd have to live in a cave. If you wear a wedding ring or a necktie you are participating in a Pagan custom.
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Santa Claus, the Christmas tree, the fact that it is an evergreen, the mistletoe, the Yule log, decorating a tree - all came from religions that existed prior to Christianity.
Uh, these are SECULAR customs, not Christian customs....
How and why do Christians practice these "Pagan" traditions?
The truth is, they don't, this is straight from the atheist, ustabe, wannabe handbook. After the first hundred times of hearing this one you get numb to it.
The truth is that Christianity is intertwined with Judaism, not Paganism. We do NOT practice "Pagan customs". We practice Jewish and Christian customs. You can see it in the rites and historical writings. To say otherwise is ignorant and false.
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Even things we just accept today doesn't have any basis in early Christianity. Our concept of the devil is radically different then what it was in early Christianity.
Tell me, what IS our concept of the devil today?
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And the demonizing of other religions is something that is a big turnoff.
My irony meter just exploded off the wall...
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I understand the need to demonize all the competing religions at the time to gain a foothold and then rise to dominance, but a lot of those old beliefs are still held and propagated today. For instance this word "Pagan" that was invented by the Christian church.
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Most Christians thinks it means someone who worships the devil.
And you know this how?
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Most Christians today believe anyone that is Pagan "is in league with the devil". This is ridiculous.
It sure is ridiculous. You know, I don't think I have ever heard anybody say that but you....
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The only religion that has any concept of the devil is Christianity (and Satanism). No other religions even recognize the existence that there is a devil.
Native Americans have "evil spirits" that cause trouble for them. The Yin/Yang is an expression of duality of the Universe. The concepts of good and evil are well known. Again, if you know who the devil is, please tell us. I mean the Christian version, not the Hollywood version.
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So when I hear someone say that they KNOW the TRUTH and everyone else is lost and is destined to spend eternity in hell I think they are clueless about what they know and what they think they know.
And when you tell us what we do know it's easier to win the argument, isn't it?
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In person I'm a pretty accommodating guy. I know a lot of Christians. Many of my closest friends are Christians and they really have no clue about what I opinion is.
This sounds suspiciously like the "I don't hate blacks, many of my friends are black" routine.
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When a Christian starts talking about something about their religion I just go along with it.
And whenever a ustabe starts telling me about pseudo-facts like the ones you have just presented I usually excuse myself and leave the room.
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When a Christian tells me that they will be praying for me I thank them and tell them that I really appreciate it. But when someone tells me that I am lost because I don't know the truth and they know the truth at the exclusion of all others and gets ugly with me about it they will have to defend their statements.
That's funny, I feel the same way, but when I ask internet scholars to defend their beliefs I get a load of crap like what I got on the other thread.
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Usually they can't without resorting to quoting scripture, which to me is like a dog spinning around in circles chasing it's tail.
Some of us can use logic, too, and seeing as how you have committed at least three logical fallacies (non sequitur, argumentum ad hominem, and the Straw Man fallacy) and your use of prejudicial language I wouldn't say you are real strong in the reason department, either.
Read something besides websites. It will open your mind.
Re: Well, SA, I thought we made some good progress toward common ground
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And what about Christian customs and holidays? What about Christmas, Easter, All Saint's Day, etc? They're all copies of Pagan holidays
It was a post about these very customs, that had me PM Mike, he seemed to know of what he speaks, I was infact clueless as to how these Holidays evolved. I remember a link he sent me on you tube - a Winter Solstice celebration, with the lights. I found it very interesting how other peope celebrate, or celebrat(ed), as now ....this is Christmas.
I don't feel there is anything wrong with seeking this information, all believers should KNOW the history , even of our Religious holidays. My church hands out flyers every year to why Halloween is a Pagan Holiday, and we should NOT be celebrating it. I guess I am no good cause I still took my kids Halloweening - never skipped a year, they looked forward to it with delight. I did it when I was a kid, I wasn't going to deprive them. But true, Halloween is a major HEATHEN holiday that wasn't co-opted by the early church.
And about the Biblical writers, the Holy books "chosen" and ....rejected. To believe MAN has gotten this 100% correct through the ages of history, in my opinion, would take an astronomical amount of TRUST in man. When Christians say, it has to all be taken on FAITH, I at least count that part as BEING HONEST.
I spent too many years feeling my QUESTIONING was wrong, sinful somehow. Some of us NEED more than Just "Faith" to go on. I am compelled to explore both sides of an issue- as fully as possible, learn the roots, the what, when, where & why's-- before I make a judgement. That would make one a good Therapist too (ha ha ) That is just ME. Forgive me!
Plenty of fine Christian men have studied both sides and have settled with Christianity - CS Lewis is one of them. I greatly respect the man, and his writings, even if I may not always agree. BUt I am more apt to listen or read a book by someone like him than someone who has never considered the other side.
I think of how even MURDER was changed to KILL in the 10 Commandments (in some translations)- that small change led to zillions of debate about the Death penalty. Shouldn't have been, even in Eccl. it says "there is a TIME TO KILL". War is NOT wrong, even the Death Penalty is NOT wrong if carried out with JUSTICE in mind. Apologetics Press - Does Exodus 20:13 Prohibit Capital Punishment?
It is just a small example of how we can mistranslate over the years, and geeze, that is 1 of the Commandments for goodness sakes!
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And those four Gospels, how did they become the ones chosen to be canonized into the bible? It was decided a few hundred years later when the Emperor Constantine demanded that it all be decided once and for all and then all the other gospels that were popular at the time were declared heretical. Not all Christians at the time believed the same thing. One view won out and won the approval of Rome and all other groups and views were instantly declared heretical. What if the ones that were banned were the ones closer to the teachings of Jesus?
For example, who wrote the books of the bible? Most scholars say it was Paul (formerly known as Saul the bounty hunter) who wrote possibly as much as 80% of the new testament, and he supposedly never even met Jesus.
I don't know what the truth is here on how much Paul has penned of the New Testament, BUT TRUE, he never walked side by side with Jesus while he spoke 1 Parable - was not at the Last Supper, nor his Crucifixtion - everything he has written was on......sheer "REVALATION"... and of coarse, I have some issues with this. Some feel JAMES, the Brother of Jesus and Paul's teachings were in conflict with each other..... is it so far fetched I ask. I am not saying I am RIGHT, I only question and Yes, I do tend to agree more so with those who have grave issues with PAUL.
Of coarse we can't believe everything we read either. But every single one of us , whether Christian or non, has put some form of TRUST in motal man along the way, whether these Bibical writers, to our Pastors - to those we admire their "works" to hold the beliefs we have TODAY, this can not be denied.
Re: Well, SA, I thought we made some good progress toward common ground
Parrot , please do not get so upset about this, we are just questioners, it is not hurting you, we are not going out and hurting other people , we likely live very very similar lives -outside of belief.
I repeat, don't get yourself banned here. Mike is just giving his opinion, just think along these lines... (and NO, MIke this is NOT directed at you!! )
......."You know what they say about opionions - they are like A-holes... everybody has one". Say this under your breath -but leave the keyboard alone- when you read things you don't agree with. That should make you smile ... then carefully work on your rebuttle using your wisdom. You don't need a come back to this either.
Re: Well, SA, I thought we made some good progress toward common ground
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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous
Parrot , please do not get so upset about this, we are just questioners, it is not hurting you, we are not going out and hurting other people , we likely live very very similar lives -outside of belief.
And I am just setting the lies that he is telling straight, I am not hurting anybody.
Re: Well, SA, I thought we made some good progress toward common ground
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Originally Posted by Parrothead
And I am just setting the lies that he is telling straight, I am not hurting anybody.
I agree that you are not hurting anyone giving your views, I know MIKE, he doesn't mind ! I am alot more lenient than any Moderator here though, I could never be one, I love debate too much - even when it gets heated. I tend to get a charge out of it - I guess that makes me a little twisted.
Just watch those personal jibes .
But yeah, come back , state your case biblically, correct him if you are compelled.
But you realize by now, our foundations are not the same, so all the correction in the world, will lead to likely another "defense".
Had you worked side by side with Mike, and "beliefs" was never brought up, I bet the 2 of you would get along famously. Isn't that what is so ironic about all of this.
I think this thread needs to die a slow - but peaceful death.
Re: Well, SA, I thought we made some good progress toward common ground
I wish I could respond to each and every comment made above, but it would take me two hours just to get the [QUOTE] tools set up so that it would be readable by anyone else.
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Originally Posted by Parrothead
And I am just setting the lies that he is telling straight.
Can you list the statements I've made that you think are lies and number each one as a new paragraph. I can [QUOTE] that and then respond below it with numbers corresponding to your challenges.
Here is a interesting little documentary on the history of the Devil.
Here is a link to the Imbolc Fire Festival that SA mentioned me sending her a link to. There has been a re-birth of the older indigenous religions in Great Britian. Festivals like this are becoming more and more popular there.
Well, SA, I thought we made some good progress toward common ground 
We need to study to make ourselves approved . Rightly dividing that Word Of truth -but even then ha ha , we will still disagree !! Makes for a good debate anyway . 
And to think I was never on a debate team, darn I would have enjoyed that!
Some of us NEED more than Just "Faith" to go on. I am compelled to explore both sides of an issue- as fully as possible, learn the roots, the what, when, where & why's-- before I make a judgement. That would make one a good Therapist too (ha ha ) That is just ME. Forgive me! 
