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Old 09-29-2011, 01:55 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raising "Right and Wrong" Kids in a "Whatever" World

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Originally Posted by Runs like Dog View Post
Coming from the perspective of being a minority inside a minority inside a minority I will tell you that the most dangerous thing in the world is absolute certainty.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson

Closing your mind and claiming to have all of the answers is insane. I'm 39. The only thing I'm sure of at this age is how little I truly know about anything. The more I know - the more I question.

What I don't like about this article - and this discussion - is the perception that this is all truly black and white - right or wrong. That is a dangerous trap to fall into - in my humble opinion...
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Old 09-29-2011, 01:58 AM   #32 (permalink)
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aside from rose butchering the definitions, what exactly is it about judeo-christian morals that prohibits the death penalty or war?
THOU SHALL NOT KILL!?!?!?!

I don't recall there being any fine print or exceptions

Don't kill.

To go back to Saint George Carlin (remember me now, PH?) - the commandment SHOULD read - "Though shalt try REAL hard not to kill, unless the other people pray to a different invisible man than you do".

Amen - and goodnight!!!
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Old 09-29-2011, 01:59 AM   #33 (permalink)
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You don't need a "universal law" as a basis of personal morality, all you need is a standard.
"Personal morality" doesn't work in a society, unless the society shares the same morality. That's what the article is about. Without a standard that transcends you, you have no standard at all.

Ravi Zacharias once said "In some cultures they love their neighbors, in other cultures they eat their neighbors. Do you have a personal preference?"
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:04 AM   #34 (permalink)
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thou shall not kill
You mean "You shall not commit murder"?

The people who stubbornly cling to the "thou shalt not kill" wording like to put the state in a bit of a pickle by making the state as guilty as the murderer who couldn't care less about any man's life or about any law.

Are you trying to tell me that the state can't carry out justice, that countries cannot defend themselves (or other countries) from invasion, or that individuals can't defend themselves from assault? (And don't give me the "turn the other cheek" thing, which is not about getting slapped in the face at all.)

That's not in any Christian tradition that I know about.
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:05 AM   #35 (permalink)
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"Personal morality" doesn't work in a society, unless the society shares the same morality. That's what the article is about. Without a standard that transcends you, you have no standard at all.
I know, I'm disagreeing with the idea that a personal morality doesn't work.
It's been working for me for decades.

My standard is simply " Cause the least amount of violation possible".

As simple as it sounds it's application has allowed me to live within my culture quite well while not at all sharing the objective morality that surrounds me.
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:05 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raising "Right and Wrong" Kids in a "Whatever" World

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"Personal morality" doesn't work in a society, unless the society shares the same morality. That's what the article is about. Without a standard that transcends you, you have no standard at all.

Ravi Zacharias once said "In some cultures they love their neighbors, in other cultures they eat their neighbors. Do you have a personal preference?"
And yet - both cultures were created by the same God - right?

But somehow - both cultures came to different beliefs.

Seems that - in this case - there is no universal transcendent law. You might be allowed to eat people - or maybe not. Just depends on where you live...?

Again though - eating people = killing. And I THOUGHT we all agreed killing was "mostly" bad.
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:11 AM   #37 (permalink)
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You mean "You shall not commit murder"?

The people who stubbornly cling to the "thou shalt not kill" wording like to put the state in a bit of a pickle by making the state as guilty as the murderer who couldn't care less about any man's life or about any law.

Are you trying to tell me that the state can't carry out justice, that countries cannot defend themselves (or other countries) from invasion, or that individuals can't defend themselves from assault? (And don't give me the "turn the other cheek" thing, which is not about getting slapped in the face at all.)

That's not in any Christian tradition that I know about.
OK - so - back to semantics. I say "kill" - you say "murder".

I say that if you take a man - who is imprisoned for a crime - and kill him - it is the same as murder. Now - I don't really see anything wrong with the death penalty. But if the Bible were my only true code, I'd feel kind of like a hypocrite.

I abide by the laws of the state of Indiana, the United States of America - and by the Generally Accepted Accounting Principles that govern my profession!

Am I immoral? What laws do you follow?
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:11 AM   #38 (permalink)
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And yet - both cultures were created by the same God - right?

But somehow - both cultures came to different beliefs.
But they can't both be right, since they are polar opposites.

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Seems that - in this case - there is no universal transcendent law. You might be allowed to eat people - or maybe not. Just depends on where you live...?
How can doing two contradictory things both be allowed?
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:16 AM   #39 (permalink)
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But they can't both be right, since they are polar opposites.



How can doing two contradictory things both be allowed?
I don't know the answer. They ARE polar opposites - yet different people in different parts of the world - who sprang from the same source of life - adhere to opposite morals. Therefore - I see nothing that is transcendent outside of them. Eating people may be really bad, or it may be part of life.

YOU tell ME how that happens? I told you - the only thing I'm sure of - is how little I know.

Convince me you're right - or I'll eat you...

Last edited by nice777guy; 09-29-2011 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:38 AM   #40 (permalink)
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OK - so - back to semantics. I say "kill" - you say "murder".
No, it's not semantics. To "kill" is what you do when you end the life processes of an animal or a human being for just (or even humanitarian, in the case of the animmal) purposes.

"Murder" is unjustly taking the life of a human being (specifically human beings, despite what PETA tells you) with extreme prejudice and malice aforethought. There is a difference between the two and it's mostly about intent.

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I say that if you take a man - who is imprisoned for a crime - and kill him - it is the same as murder.
Well, then, you would be wrong.

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Now - I don't really see anything wrong with the death penalty. But if the Bible were my only true code, I'd feel kind of like a hypocrite.
I don't, but then, a lot of people who really don't understand Christianity (or even semantics, for that matter) think I should.


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I abide by the laws of the state of Indiana, the United States of America - and by the Generally Accepted Accounting Principles that govern my profession!

Am I immoral? What laws do you follow?
From a religious POV, I don't follow laws, I understand what the law is trying to preserve so that I don't have to follow laws, because I preserve what the law would preserve.

Example: If I am driving down a country road, I see that the road is curvy and hilly, and that driving in a reckless manner would endanger the safety of other travelers on the road. So I drive in a manner that does not endanger the safety of others, and in doing so I find that I am near or under the speed limit.

What is the intent of the law? To arbitrarily set a speed that the state can enforce, or is it to preserve safety?

(The answer is to preserve safety).

So, as a Christian, if my intent is to preserve safety, reduce or eliminate harm to others insofar as I am able, and eliminate theft, I find that I am always within the law. (I have scriptural support for this, by the way), so I don't have to memorize rules, I just take a few general principles and actually use them.

That is "morality". Law is not morality.

Most of the people who accuse us of "picking and choosing" are almost always the ones who do the picking and choosing, because they want ascribe their own intent to the actions of others.
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:47 AM   #41 (permalink)
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I don't know the answer.
The answer is that one is right and the other is wrong. Cannibalism is murder, among other things, and it has no resemblance to loving your neighbor.

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They ARE polar opposites - yet different people in different parts of the world - who sprang from the same source of life - adhere to opposite morals.
No, they didn't spring from the same source of life, one is a God given commandment, and the other is a man-made custom of the kind that the people on this forum are always yammering about.

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Therefore - I see nothing that is transcendent outside of them.
So there can be nothing transcendent about loving your neighbor, and I don't mean in the sexual sense.

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YOU tell ME how that happens?
Yes, some people get it right and some people get it wrong. Why is that a surprise to you?
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:56 AM   #42 (permalink)
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, I just take a few general principles and actually use them.
Your initial argument implied that these "general principles" had to originate from some objective source.
If that interpretation is incorrect please let me know.

My point is that these "general principles" you speak of can come from anywhere, from ones own revelation, parents, friends, culture.

What do you mean when you say morality must come from a place that "transcends you"?
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Old 09-29-2011, 04:10 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Your initial argument implied that these "general principles" had to originate from some objective source.
If that interpretation is incorrect please let me know.
It's not horribly precise.

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My point is that these "general principles" you speak of can come from anywhere, from ones own revelation, parents, friends, culture.
That will most likely not be the same thing I am talking about.

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What do you mean when you say morality must come from a place that "transcends you"?
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Because if your morality resides only within you, you end up with the state of affairs where some people eat their neighbors and others love their neighbors. Most westerners think that we all "agreed" on not killing, not stealing, etc. but the truth is that those notions are the influence of hundreds of years of Christian thought, and Christian thought posits a Divine influence.
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Old 09-29-2011, 04:53 AM   #44 (permalink)
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
If that's going to be your position, would you like me to give you only inconsistent answers from now on?

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Closing your mind and claiming to have all of the answers is insane.
Where has anyone said any such thing? But, the answers we DO have, we have. We made it a point to have them for times like this.

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I'm 39. The only thing I'm sure of at this age is how little I truly know about anything.
I don't have that problem. I know a lot about some things, a little about other things, and not a whole lot about the rest.

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The more I know - the more I question.
You question everything except your own preconceptions. Look at this statement of yours:

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What I don't like about this article - and this discussion - is the perception that this is all truly black and white - right or wrong. That is a dangerous trap to fall into - in my humble opinion...
No, it's not all black and white, but the things that are black and white ARE black and white. Ones and zeros, that's the "logic" I was talking about earlier. If you refuse to use logic to understand the world around you, then you truly do know very little.

Dismissing concrete fact as unknowable is self defeating and intellectually lazy.

In a few hours I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that my position on the planet is going to rotate around to the place where the sun is in space. We call this "day". There is a very slim chance that it might not, but I am still sure it's going to happen.

Likewise, I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that certain actions, or inactions, as in the case of ignorance, by human beings cause death and injury to certain members of the community, bringing discord and unnecessary strife. It's not even a debatable point. We KNOW it happens, the only thing we disagree on is who to blame.

Emerson did say this: "The other terror that scares us from self-trust is our consistency; a reverence for our past act or word, because the eyes of others have no other data for computing our orbit than our past acts, and we are loath to disappoint them. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"

And with that you should know what Emerson was talking about - "foolish" consistency. It had nothing to do with "wise" consistency, which is what we are discussing here.
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:39 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raising "Right and Wrong" Kids in a "Whatever" World

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The answer is that one is right and the other is wrong. Cannibalism is murder, among other things, and it has no resemblance to loving your neighbor.


CANNIBALISM in rare rare circumstances -for the survival of those left living --there is a moral dilemma for you -where I feel it was OK to act upon , called Survival cannibalism -examples here : HowStuffWorks "Survival Cannibalism"

For a second there, I was siding with Parrothead over Nice Guy.... accually "KILL" should have never been worded as such in the 10 Commandments, big blunder in some translations, as it clearly says there is a time to kill in Ecclesiastes 3:3 The "thou shall not" commandment was clearly meant to be MURDER , or "Ratsach"- not KILL. Truth Or Tradition - Ratsach, Hebrew word mistranslated kill in Sixth Commandment, Bible study

I am not a Christian, but I wholly agree with the Death Penalty when used with the TRUE meaning of the term "MURDER"-in THIS country. NOT all others. There is something DEEP DEEP within all of us (regardless of Faith) that calls out for JUSTICE, a cry for the innocent . This should be, this is our conscience speaking to us on behalf of the innocents among us. We ask ourselves what if that was our son or daughter, what if it was US, how would we react. Here is the legal Defintion of Murder - I agree with this 100% Murder Law & Legal Definition

A Moral dilemma would be abortion in some circumstances - where the Mother's life was at stake. My son has been taught by his Youth Pastor that the Baby should be chosen over the Mother in such a life of death situation (glad I am not married to him!) that is more "Just" in his eyes. Do I agree with that. I do NOT.

Also for me... had I learned the baby would die shortly after birth , or have SEVERE birth defects, missing or an added chromosome (I know a woman who gave birth to such a child yrs ago- she died 4 months later-most excruciating intensely painful experience of her life, and would this baby remember this? back then no tests could be given to know of such problems) . I would choose an early abortion over carrying such a pregnancy.

On the other hand, had I been raped, for ME (as some would have an abortion for this -which I would NOT judge them for), I personally would choose to carry that baby and give it up for adoption.

I think about the QUALITY of LIFE a child would have in this world having SEVERE handicaps. It is very very very unsettling to me. I have a good friend who works in a Special HOME for children -up to adults like this, even though she loves & cares for them, they even bring her joy. Even she admits- she would have an abortion . She told me once...1/3 of the parents/family come every week, 1/3 of the comes only on special occasions/hoidays and 1/3 NEVER visit these loved ones. They are left there to live & die being cared for by stangers, who become the only family they know. Should it be, NO, but it is the reality none the less.

Some might call me a murderer, but that is fine, I am thankful for this choice. Also that I have never had to "use it". Do I feel it is OK to take the life of a child -just cause you didn't want it -it was an inconvenience for you- even though you chose to have unprotected sex KNOWING full well this COULD BE the result... wrong timing -still in college, the sex you didn't want. I would feel that is very very wrong.

And obviously the Death Penalty, could be very very very CRUEL, even MURDER itself - if used in a society where the strong, the Powerful weild thier power over the weak, or put
people to death over beliefs, Race, Political differences, etc. I say live & let live if your neighbor is not hurting you , infringing on your family, your life.

A society with Freedom, Liberty and Democracy will have more LAWS that are truly "JUST" than any ran by Religion with total Black and White absolutest thinking in every area of a chosen set of Holy Book scriptures. The problem with that --is interpretation. Not all agree-they never will, the fundamentalists will war with the more liberal minded and more tolerable thinkers , then wars will be faught over that..... it never ends.

I thank God I live in America and for our Founding Fathers, with freedom of speech for ALL, even being able to march in the streets in Protest -when we feel certain LAWS need changed. This is a BLESSING so many do not have in other countries. Even if some OVER USE IT in preverse ways .... http://www.godhatesfags.com/schedule.html .

Moral Dilemma there ....no matter our cause - be peaceful about it, show respect for others (something those Westboros have no concept of) , not looting, breaking the existing laws , and chances are you won't be taken away in handcuffs.


Last edited by SimplyAmorous; 09-29-2011 at 08:04 AM.
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