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Old 09-29-2011, 07:17 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raising "Right and Wrong" Kids in a "Whatever" World

So - which is it? Though Shall Not Kill - or Though Shall Not Murder (never heard it phrased that way in my life until now).

So - SA says that there have been some misinterpretations - maybe even mistakes - in how one of the seemingly most important Ten Commandments may have been translated? Wow! If they didn't get the big Ten right, what else is up for debate?

Kill v. murder - semantics to me. Murder sounds a bit darker - but at the end of it - whether you've killed or murdered - would seem that the result is the same.

The ONE issue I see that SHOULD be black and white has been turned into an argument about subtle differences in definition.

So - is killing a man on death row a moral dilemma?
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:12 AM   #47 (permalink)
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So - SA says that there have been some misinterpretations - maybe even mistakes - in how one of the seemingly most important Ten Commandments may have been translated? Wow! If they didn't get the big Ten right, what else is up for debate?
Absolutely MANY MANY are NOT aware of this, and it is one of my arguments, Yes --what else has been mistranslated over the ages & translations -if one of the 10 can be, God knows what else .

Very different meanings Nice Guy.

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Kill v. murder - semantics to me. Murder sounds a bit darker - but at the end of it - whether you've killed or murdered - would seem that the result is the same.
Yes, the end result is the same, BUT the intentions to WHY it happened are as far from night & day as one can possibly get. (doesn't everything REALLY come down to the intentions in the heart?) ...

One has willfully chosen to disregard the LIFE of someone innocent... and for what - to steal a little money, shoot a police officer cause you don't want a ticket, Rape & kill a teenager , then go throw her in the ocean -to hide the evidence, fearing you will be put on a sex offender list.

I don't know about you, but I see a very very very grand canyon divide from someone INNOCENT not deserving to die , having their life cut short ....as opposed to someone who did a ROTTEN hateful deed for selfish gain & destroyed the life (and a family's hopes & dreams) of another -- sometimes just for KICKS. No, I would march in the streets for those types to be removed from society, and yes, PUT TO DEATH.

I hope the hell none of my children ever get taken from me from a monster like that cause if so, I might end up on TV being the next John Walse or something. Many parents have used thier ANGER to rally new & better laws for repeat offenders. Even the Amber Alert was born from such a cause . I greatly admire every parent who has spoken out for change - to keep better tract of sex offenders, I think of that Jessica Lunsford case where the man was a twice convicted sex offender, and buried that little girl alive clutching her teddy bear.

I would question the sanity of anyone who would want to spare that man's life. I simply can NOT relate to that at all.


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So - is killing a man on death row a moral dilemma?
For me, no moral dilemma whatsoever. Sick profession to have I suppose . But really, they choose to disregard innocent life, their willful actions got them sitting in that chair, did they not?

Now if someone has been wrongly accused, this is another issue entirely. Moral dilimmas there - when not 100% proof, it should not be used, but how does anyone have 100% proof if no witnesses, we must depend on the evidence, it must be able to speak for us. Surely our legal system is better than most in this world. Maybe some would disagree, I don't know.

Last edited by SimplyAmorous; 09-29-2011 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:32 AM   #48 (permalink)
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It's not horribly precise.
And you don't seem to want to correct that.


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That will most likely not be the same thing I am talking about.
Then what are you talking about?


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Because if your morality resides only within you, you end up with the state of affairs where some people eat their neighbors and others love their neighbors. Most westerners think that we all "agreed" on not killing, not stealing, etc. but the truth is that those notions are the influence of hundreds of years of Christian thought, and Christian thought posits a Divine influence.
Christian thought posits many things, much of which is demonstrably false.

I will agree Christian tradition ( not necessarily scripture) has always had a great influence on western morality.
However I would posit that Christian basis for morality is founded on nothing more than human thought regardless of how deluded that thought is.
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:52 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raising "Right and Wrong" Kids in a "Whatever" World

Ok - I'm still struggling.

As you are growing up, your parents give you a book of RULES. You are told to obey the rules, or bad things will happen.

One day I'm comparing my rule book with a friend. The covers are a little different. The font isn't the same. Nothing's on the right page. And my Top Ten rules say don't Kill - his say don't Murder. WTF!?!?

(Not to mention that my other friend has a book that ends about halfway through where mine does. His is missing all the parts with the really cool, peace-loving hippy guy. Not to mention - he doesn't celebrate Christmas - and his foreskin is a bit different....)

So I go home and ask my parents, and they tell me that the rules are bit fuzzy sometimes and that there are a lot of different versions of the rules - but I still have to follow them, or really bad things will happen.

Me - if I really, really believed in MY "Don't Kill" book - I would probably continue to think that killing of ANY kind was wrong rather than take the risk of having those really bad things happen to me.

Or of course - I could do what a lot of people do - and just buy a copy of my friend's book if I like his translation better...

I truly don't have a strong feeling either way about the death penalty. I just don't like being told that I have no morals unless I follow a book that has multiple translations and an infinite number of interpretations. Even regarding something as important as Killing / Murdering.

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Old 09-29-2011, 09:24 AM   #50 (permalink)
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"Personal morality" doesn't work in a society, unless the society shares the same morality. That's what the article is about. Without a standard that transcends you, you have no standard at all
Also - I'm really not pro-cannibal either. And its probably not the best example.

But - since I know there have been documented cannibal tribes - I think its relevant to your "transcendental truth" theory.

A transcendental truth should "transcend" our physical boundaries.

Yet somehow - God made a group of people that are just like us - but think its OK to eat other people. That whole "don't eat people" thing that seems "obvious" to us, seems perfectly reasonable to them.

And the point I was trying to make earlier is that - even if this group of Cannibals worships God in a different way - they were still CREATED by the same GOD that created you and I.

The God that created you and I also created the Middle East. They just call him by a different name and use a different rule book.
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Old 09-29-2011, 12:03 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Really trying here...

Per Rose -

Morals are individualistic...
Ethics are the result of collective Morals...

I like how you state that in some cases, a belief in a God created the "code" - and in other cases, the "code" created the scripture. Did I get that right?

Always wondered - how do we justify the death penalty in a society whose laws are based on Judeo-Christian beliefs? How do we justify war?

Are we truly no better than our ancestors - who somehow justified owning slaves? Denied women the right to vote? Burned "witches" at the stake in the name of their Judeo-Christian beliefs?
Almost... not some cases created by a god... and other cases not. I'm just stating that the development of religion in a philosophical perspective is that a moral code is developed for the individual to live by for the attempt of peaceable living within a society either by an actual supreme being that directed man to transcribe these codes OR the human creation of this supreme being as a perfect model of living.. a definition of a developing moral conscience to create a peaceable society.

Justifying laws are a societal effect. When a large enough group BELIEVES in a concept then it is ethically correct, but on an individual level to some may be immoral. It is how laws change, when the beliefs change. i.e abortion.. I personally think it is an immoral act... however I cannot singularily enforce my beliefs upon what the current society deems as a human right. As to slavery, even though it is mentioned in the bible as a fact of life, no where does it say I have a right to purchase slaves. To me it is immoral. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves yet he was the founding father of the a free nation. Does it seem hypocritical... now... absolutely... but then it was not. Womans rights and equalities, in biblical times, women had the rights to own land, have a voice, but somehow it was morphed into something difference by time and society, and now slowly regained.

War is a result of a perceived or actual threat. Would it be optimum if any disputes could be resolved through peaceable measures... absolutely... but it is unrealistic as a human race our belief systems can get skewed by a faulty interpretation. Hitler truely believed that his morals were correct and right... the rest of the world said no... and hence the WW2. If the allies had lost the war, the world today would be vastly different, If Hitlers philosophies were accepted by the world as right.. it is hard to imagine what our world would be like today... HOWEVER... society has an aversion to imbalance... through history, any dominion of a prevailing rule by force, violence, highly imbalanced class structure, tend not to last. The Roman Empire had amazing feats of engineering, city development, political systems, mathematics, however once there is an imbalance of morality, then it falls apart. Moral codes are developed on a premise of peaceable living of the individual for the good of society. It is the never ending quest to have both fair and just living. Will it even be attained.. not likly as that's called utopia. All empires rise and they will fall... when the human fallibility for the self overrides their morality and the ethics of a society, then all hell breaks loose as the within a structure. For example, the banking and mortgaging fiasco. The immoral act of greed of the few cause the unethical demise of the many and the whole society pays for it.

Sorry for the length...

Last edited by RoseRed; 09-29-2011 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 09-29-2011, 12:15 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Aside from Rose butchering the definitions, what exactly is it about Judeo-Christian morals that prohibits the death penalty or war?
LOL! Oversimplifying yes... butchering no... :-)

PH - you are looking for utopia... doesn't exist... trancendental universal moral code is beyond the human condition. The human condition is the ebb and flow of moral principles.
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Old 09-29-2011, 12:41 PM   #53 (permalink)
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The human condition is the ebb and flow of moral principles.
Very well said!
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Old 09-29-2011, 12:46 PM   #54 (permalink)
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LOL! Oversimplifying yes... butchering no... :-)

PH - you are looking for utopia... doesn't exist... trancendental universal moral code is beyond the human condition. The human condition is the ebb and flow of moral principles.
And I thought he "liked" you!
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Old 09-29-2011, 12:52 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Moral codes are developed on a premise of peaceable living of the individual for the good of society.

Sorry for the length...
No problem on the length. Well written...

OK - another question then - for you (Rose) or anyone.

I like what you said above.

But is religion truly necessary? Don't people want "peaceable living" and societal good no matter what God they pray to?

Some of you are much smarter - or more well versed - than I am in these matters. Has there ever been a successful, long-term society whose ideals were NOT based on a religion of some kind?
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:28 PM   #56 (permalink)
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The Hebrew says specifically not to murder. By this the meaning is outside of legal due process.
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Old 09-29-2011, 05:41 PM   #57 (permalink)
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No problem on the length. Well written...

OK - another question then - for you (Rose) or anyone.

I like what you said above.

But is religion truly necessary? Don't people want "peaceable living" and societal good no matter what God they pray to?

Some of you are much smarter - or more well versed - than I am in these matters. Has there ever been a successful, long-term society whose ideals were NOT based on a religion of some kind?
Oh... PH like me??? Well.. if he doesn't, thats ok... I still like him... he poses quite thought provoking concepts. I like deep thinkers.

I personally am an Orthodox Christian... its older than Catholicism. However I am, like all christians by the fact that I am human, I am flawed, ie. imperfect, ie make mistakes. I don't think there is any religion that presupposes any human to be perfect. Theology is not my forte. i get into some great discussions with the church elders about the bible... my thoughts and opinions, although they may be more traditional, they really do appreciate a very curious, adventurous mind. They give me credit of having that Godly trait.

I respect all religions of the world, I have friends of many faiths from muslim to shinto. The creation of religion based upon a supreme Being(s) is the human way of explaining the unexplainable in ancient times. Even explaining our own existance... how did 'we' come into being. If man attributes our creation to a supreme being, then so our mind and thoughts were created by the same being. There are texts that pre-date the bible that have the creation of man based upon being built of mud. It is quite curious that in the 1950 - 60's biologists have been able to create all the building blocks of life, amino acids, proteins, etc in the chemisty lab from a theoretical premortial soup of water, and chemical theoriized to have existed upon the scientific creation of the earth, however it is still impossible in modern science to take all those building blocks and make a DNA chain.

There are many theologians, (and myself too) believe that the first 4 books of the bible are a mythical accounting on many stories, however the morality of them remain the same. The biblical creation is based upon a human scale of a day, yet the geological record speaks differently... perhaps a god day was highly underestimated by a couple billion of years?? The same for other ancient scriptures and doctrines of other religions. It is interesting how some gospels were and more importantly were not included in the new testament... like the Gospel of Phillip, Gospel of Mary... etc... why not?? the hierarchy of the church wish not to say...
The fact being that humans were involved, always will be involved.

Do we need religion??? I believe so... even in a world of high reason and technology... we still are falliable, and the act of faith and comfort is what we receive from religion. Perhaps to ground us, center us, focus on the goodness that it gives us.

It is dementia of the human mind in power that create needless suffering upon mans INTERPRETATION of the scripture. ie. the inquisition, etc.. Again re-inforces the fallibility of the human mind.

As for not believing in a god... that is everyone's right to do so. It is still hopeful that the non-believers would use and apply principles of a solid religion. Like the golden rule, the ten commandments, etc...

As for an ancient society not having a religious basis... this I do not know... would be interesting to find out... but if then it just seems to beg the question... why doesn't it exist yet today? Did it have a faulty moral code??

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Old 09-29-2011, 05:49 PM   #58 (permalink)
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LOL! Oversimplifying yes... butchering no... :-)

PH - you are looking for utopia... doesn't exist... trancendental universal moral code is beyond the human condition. The human condition is the ebb and flow of moral principles.
No, I wouldn't say "Utopia", and I couldn't disagree more about universal moral code, but it does take some effort to sort out the differences between "kill" and "murder".

If you do believe in a Creator, then the idea of a transcendental morality is not far fetched at all.
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Old 09-29-2011, 06:03 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Ok - I'm still struggling.

As you are growing up, your parents give you a book of RULES. You are told to obey the rules, or bad things will happen.

One day I'm comparing my rule book with a friend. The covers are a little different. The font isn't the same. Nothing's on the right page. And my Top Ten rules say don't Kill - his say don't Murder. WTF!?!?

(Not to mention that my other friend has a book that ends about halfway through where mine does. His is missing all the parts with the really cool, peace-loving hippy guy. Not to mention - he doesn't celebrate Christmas - and his foreskin is a bit different....)

So I go home and ask my parents, and they tell me that the rules are bit fuzzy sometimes and that there are a lot of different versions of the rules - but I still have to follow them, or really bad things will happen.

Me - if I really, really believed in MY "Don't Kill" book - I would probably continue to think that killing of ANY kind was wrong rather than take the risk of having those really bad things happen to me.

Or of course - I could do what a lot of people do - and just buy a copy of my friend's book if I like his translation better...

I truly don't have a strong feeling either way about the death penalty. I just don't like being told that I have no morals unless I follow a book that has multiple translations and an infinite number of interpretations. Even regarding something as important as Killing / Murdering.
The book I had didn't have anything in it about killing vs. murdering - it said things like share, no hitting, wash your hands after going to the bathroom, stuff like that.

Nobody ever told you that you don't have morals, I am trying to get you to tell us what morals are. The only reason I even get into these arguments is because I have people trying to tell me what I believe.

Last edited by Parrothead; 09-29-2011 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 09-29-2011, 06:05 PM   #60 (permalink)
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And I thought he "liked" you!
I certainly hope agreement is not required.
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