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Old 09-30-2011, 07:50 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:52 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Didn't misquote Emerson. And I understood what I was quoting. I COMPLETELY believe your consistencies to be foolish as your mind is a closed as a steel trap.

Go back and read some of Rose's posts to get a better idea of how to present your ideas to us "secular" folks.

Likeability is not necessary - not at all. But if you are a jerk then people will stop listening. You'll convert a lot more people to your cause with a handshake and a smile than you will an insult and a snicker.

Good luck.
MY mind is as closed as a steel trap?? Is that the pot calling the kettle black or what?

Number one, I am not trying to "convert" anybody. I made a post about moral relativism. In any case, people will either see the light of day or they won't - it has nothing to do with me. And that's even truer when you speak of it in spiritual terms.

Number two, my approach is the result of years of apologetics. I had a guy, after I had cracked a joke about God saying Nietsche is dead (as opposed to the opposite) and his response was "I already don't like you". I have also spent days explaining things only to be told I was an idiot. So my words are a take it or leave it proposition. People who are against "religion" (read: against Christianity) think anything I say in favor of it is a personal insult to them.

One thing I have noticed for sure is that people who can't answer me start talking about my "attitude". Such people are just trying to shoot the messenger.

I won't argue with you any further. Think the things you say through to their logical conclusion and you will answer your own question.
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Old 09-30-2011, 01:14 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raising "Right and Wrong" Kids in a "Whatever" World

OK - the LOGICAL conclusion is that you have an invisible friend who threatens to send you to hell if you don't behave. That - and some folklore - is the basis for your moral code.

Deep down inside I think this scares you. Maybe you think convincing others is a way to confirm that your friend is real. If they see him too, then maybe you aren't crazy - right?

Or maybe you just aren't very nice.

MY invisible friend is currently telling me that you need to be eaten. Its actually an honor in my society that you should be pleased to accept. You will eventually be turned into compost and used to fertilize our crops. You'll be helping many starving children.

My friend is also telling me I'm going to need a lot of ketchup to cover the foul taste...

May Zeus be with you my friend.

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Old 09-30-2011, 03:05 PM   #79 (permalink)
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PH - just a gentle reminder...
Ephesians 4:32
Luke 6: 36-37
James 3:17

I feel your passion, your strength in faith... I admire your fortitude... I agree that you should never be apoligetic for your faith...

but a reminder that it is not what you say... but how you say it... patience, understanding, calm and gentle. The only time Jesus went ballistic was with the money changers in the temple... and that was for absolute blatant hypocrisy.. not the unknowing yet curious mind.

Be at peace...
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Old 09-30-2011, 04:10 PM   #80 (permalink)
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PH - just a gentle reminder...
Ephesians 4:32
Luke 6: 36-37
James 3:17

I feel your passion, your strength in faith... I admire your fortitude... I agree that you should never be apoligetic for your faith...

but a reminder that it is not what you say... but how you say it... patience, understanding, calm and gentle. The only time Jesus went ballistic was with the money changers in the temple... and that was for absolute blatant hypocrisy.. not the unknowing yet curious mind.

Be at peace...
But it IS also what he says.

I've never expected him to apologize for his faith. I bet that we would agree on more things than we disagree.

The apologies - which I don't expect to receive - would be for things like telling me that it will hurt my brain once I begin to learn to think. Or telling me I misquoted Emerson when I didn't.

Or telling you (Rose) that you had "butchered" one of your first posts on this thread.

He claims people have called him a sinner and other names because of his faith. I haven't seen that on this particular thread.
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Old 09-30-2011, 05:58 PM   #81 (permalink)
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But it IS also what he says.

I've never expected him to apologize for his faith. I bet that we would agree on more things than we disagree.

The apologies - which I don't expect to receive - would be for things like telling me that it will hurt my brain once I begin to learn to think. Or telling me I misquoted Emerson when I didn't.

Or telling you (Rose) that you had "butchered" one of your first posts on this thread.

He claims people have called him a sinner and other names because of his faith. I haven't seen that on this particular thread.
I understand what you are saying... and I am sorry that his words were hurtful to you...

.in response...

To PH -

1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

To EVERYONE... PH and I included....

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


And to any that had a Christian marriage... these words hold true not just for your spouse but EVERYONE on this fantastic blue ball...

Yes.. I do realize PH used the word 'butchered' in reference to me... I CHOOSE to take that meaning in the literal translation... meaning to cut up... which I simplified for expedience.. I didn't want to cut and paste the Oxford Dictionary in my post... perhaps that was not a good move on my part as PH does like to be thorough. I CHOOSE to remove the assumption of venom hidden within the word. I CHOOSE to think of PH as a very intelligent, thought provoking, inquisitive mind albeit he may be hurt and lashing out from previous experiences. He is, still, and always will be, a human... we all are...and we ALL stumble once in a while. I will NEVER meter out, ration, qualify my compassion and caring even if he lashes out at me. His or anyone elses venom can never EVER change what I am...

I have engaged many discussions in this forum... I always attempt to understand the others point of view and perspective... and there are times when I express my thoughts, backed up with logic, and I am always open to exploring if my logic is faulty by anothers thoughts.

Sometimes I am able to get through to some people, sometimes not. And when it is obvious that a thread and posters upon that thread have no intention of looking outside their narrow thought, stubborn and abusive... it is futile for me to continue. I discontinue to participate and walk away no matter what is fired at me.

I however will ALWAYS engage a curious, introspective and open mind... it is enlightening to all people within. The feedback is beneficial to all. And of course, as fitting of my character I try to do so in a polite, clear, calm manner. Doesn't mean I don't get frustrated sometimes and I slip up.. but I learn from my mistakes... I remain... oh so wonderfully human!
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:03 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Why do you people even bother with it at all?

lolll
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:18 PM   #83 (permalink)
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I understand what you are saying... and I am sorry that his words were hurtful to you...

.in response...

To PH -

1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

To EVERYONE... PH and I included....

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


And to any that had a Christian marriage... these words hold true not just for your spouse but EVERYONE on this fantastic blue ball...

Yes.. I do realize PH used the word 'butchered' in reference to me... I CHOOSE to take that meaning in the literal translation... meaning to cut up... which I simplified for expedience.. I didn't want to cut and paste the Oxford Dictionary in my post... perhaps that was not a good move on my part as PH does like to be thorough. I CHOOSE to remove the assumption of venom hidden within the word. I CHOOSE to think of PH as a very intelligent, thought provoking, inquisitive mind albeit he may be hurt and lashing out from previous experiences. He is, still, and always will be, a human... we all are...and we ALL stumble once in a while. I will NEVER meter out, ration, qualify my compassion and caring even if he lashes out at me. His or anyone elses venom can never EVER change what I am...

I have engaged many discussions in this forum... I always attempt to understand the others point of view and perspective... and there are times when I express my thoughts, backed up with logic, and I am always open to exploring if my logic is faulty by anothers thoughts.

Sometimes I am able to get through to some people, sometimes not. And when it is obvious that a thread and posters upon that thread have no intention of looking outside their narrow thought, stubborn and abusive... it is futile for me to continue. I discontinue to participate and walk away no matter what is fired at me.

I however will ALWAYS engage a curious, introspective and open mind... it is enlightening to all people within. The feedback is beneficial to all. And of course, as fitting of my character I try to do so in a polite, clear, calm manner. Doesn't mean I don't get frustrated sometimes and I slip up.. but I learn from my mistakes... I remain... oh so wonderfully human!
Why, thank you Rose. I appreciate you taking my criticism in the spirit in which it was intended.

Now, as for the rest of your comments, alas, I am but a sinner in need of Grace, like many others. I am not without love, as Mrs. Parrothead would attest, it's patience that I am short on, particularly when it comes to "foolish and stupid arguments arguments" (2 Timothy 2:23 NIV) which is what you end up being involved in when you try to make any kind of truth claim to people who don't believe in truth. Now I am being accused of having an "invisible friend".

Such is life. I make the best of it by joking about it, but apparently not all are blessed with a sense of humor, either. It comes from esteeming themselves more highly than they ought.

In any case, your comments are noted and appreciated.
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:22 PM   #84 (permalink)
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And by the way, Mrs. Parrothead is fuming at the comments directed at me from people who call themselves "nice".

They ought to look up the etymology of the word some time.
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:37 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Well, "trying on God" doesn't have to be as complicated as most people make it. In one of the Star Trek movies, engineer Scott remarked: "The more they over-think the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain". People on forums like this one will often obsess over such things as whether or not the world really was created in six literal days, or whether you really could build a ship large enough to carry all the animals in the world.

While understanding Christianity in terms of it's past is helpful, the short version is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself".

Of course, that alone takes a lifetime to master. Hells belles, many people don't even love themselves, let alone anyone else, especially God. And still others think that "love" means hanging out with the people who tell you the things you really want to hear.

Some people say "Jesus" is their "homeboy" but Jesus himself said that if all you can do is be good to those who like you back, then you are no better than non-believers. Yet, there is no shortage of Catholic bashing coming from people who call themselves "Christian". And with the rest of the world, it's open season on "evangelicals", read: "people who really believe Jesus was who he said he was".

If you take the New Testament in context with the Old Testament, the message is clear: if you want to change the world, you start with yourself. As little as 15 years ago I was part of an ecumenical movement seeking unity, and today things are more divided than ever. I believe it is because true Christianity only exists as a minority subculture, the rest is feelgood pop psychology.

I am rambling, but I guess the point is that many people who are looking for God are looking in all the wrong places. It's funny that you said you were "orthodox" - the greatest revelation of God this old formerly Baptist country boy ever had was while reading about your Eastern Catholic monastics.

And most of the churches you mentioned were liturgical churches, so they are not that different. These days Baptist church services are more like self help seminars. But even those are just worship traditions, the theology is pretty much the same, it depends on whether or not they are pushing an agenda that has nothing to do with Christianity. Politics is everywhere.
I'll share a little adventure I had...

Just out of my curiosity I did attend a sermon in a non-denominational church... I was floored by what I heard. It was completely focused on God and Christ in only a context of " don't worry, you can do anything you want, God will always forgive you" mentality... yikes! I noticed that the congregation was 1000+ with 4 sermons a day... so I can imagine this "church" was tithing well... so... me being even more curious went to the church office the following day and asked to see the I990 tax form... and low and behold, the 'pastor' was drawing a personal wage of 300+K a year. The ratio of church operations of wages, all building maintanience, etc etc FAR outweighed any outreach programs... and yet they asked more and more of the congregation and community to do more for the church...

My heart sank like a rock...

but my faith is unwavering...

In my home church I am considered the 'trouble-maker' as I am always full of joyful vim and vigor... my fiery (yet graceful) fiesty quest for knowledge and understanding is unquenchable...

I just hope, when it comes to my time in heaven I can have amazing conversations with all my fav people in history... else if everyone knows everything and everyone is perfect in heaven I am going to have to figure something else to keep my mind busy!
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:48 PM   #86 (permalink)
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I'll share a little adventure I had...

Just out of my curiosity I did attend a sermon in a non-denominational church... I was floored by what I heard. It was completely focused on God and Christ in only a context of " don't worry, you can do anything you want, God will always forgive you" mentality... yikes! I noticed that the congregation was 1000+ with 4 sermons a day... so I can imagine this "church" was tithing well... so... me being even more curious went to the church office the following day and asked to see the I990 tax form... and low and behold, the 'pastor' was drawing a personal wage of 300+K a year. The ratio of church operations of wages, all building maintanience, etc etc FAR outweighed any outreach programs... and yet they asked more and more of the congregation and community to do more for the church...

My heart sank like a rock...

but my faith is unwavering...

In my home church I am considered the 'trouble-maker' as I am always full of joyful vim and vigor... my fiery (yet graceful) fiesty quest for knowledge and understanding is unquenchable...

I just hope, when it comes to my time in heaven I can have amazing conversations with all my fav people in history... else if everyone knows everything and everyone is perfect in heaven I am going to have to figure something else to keep my mind busy!
I kinda think you are in the right place. My former priest and mentor told me that in his next life he was going to come back as an Orthodox priest. (You'd have to know him. His sense of humor is as twisted as mine is.)

Don't suffer over it. Time have changed and the world isn't what it once was. The Lord warned us about this.

You should try seminary - that will take the "vim and vigor" out of you. :-)
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:55 PM   #87 (permalink)
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And by the way, Mrs. Parrothead is fuming at the comments directed at me from people who call themselves "nice".

They ought to look up the etymology of the word some time.
Honestly, the word 'nice' is such a useless word in all its contexts because it actually means nothing... it far too broad of a word in meaning...

Mrs. Parrothead is the best person to know you! Ultimately God knows you best...

My Mister reads through some of forum catagories, threads and postings at times and he's having a hard time not being digusted by it all. He will mention a few when we post our R story... yup... the mister and I are back together and well on the way to healing. Smarter... and better than before...

My prayers to you to find your patience... temper your impatience with kindness, fools or otherwise... I'm hopeful that Mrs. P is helping you with that!

my prayers to both you and Mrs. P....
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Old 09-30-2011, 07:05 PM   #88 (permalink)
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My Mister reads through some of forum catagories, threads and postings at times and he's having a hard time not being digusted by it all. He will mention a few when we post our R story... yup... the mister and I are back together and well on the way to healing. Smarter... and better than before...
Well, thanks be to God, and may the blessings of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit be with you, now and forever.
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Old 09-30-2011, 07:07 PM   #89 (permalink)
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I kinda think you are in the right place. My former priest and mentor told me that in his next life he was going to come back as an Orthodox priest. (You'd have to know him. His sense of humor is as twisted as mine is.)

Don't suffer over it. Time have changed and the world isn't what it once was. The Lord warned us about this.

You should try seminary - that will take the "vim and vigor" out of you. :-)
Thanks! Oh... my priest also has an amazing sense of humour!! He gets me with his warped humor but ABSOLUTE logic EVERYTIME!!! Every little attempt of my humor he squashes me like a lil bug! I respect him deeply.. he is an incredibly learned man!!!

Seminary???? Well if I were a man... maybe.. but luckily I am a woman... I WOULDN'T LAST A SECOND IN ORTHODOX BOOTCAMP!!

I'll just keep loving my Godly womanhood... thank you very much!
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Old 09-30-2011, 07:09 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Well, thanks be to God, and may the blessings of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit be with you, now and forever.
I am deeply touched and thank you... AMEN!
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