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Old 10-11-2011, 01:42 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IanIronwood View Post
See just how far equality goes?
Sure is better than never having had that equality - never having the same opportunities or choices about your own life or your own self/person that others did.

A person, man or woman, should be able to choose the path they want to follow in their life - and that is what it is all about - having the ability to make a choice and have a voice in your own life.

Being able to choose to vote.
Being able to choose to drive.
Being able to choose an education.
Being able to choose a career.
Being able to choose a mate.
Being able to choose when you share yourself with your mate.
Being able to choose parenthood.
Being able to choose.

And, of course, every choice you make has consequences. One must be prepared for the consequences of one's actions. Perhaps some are too rash in not considering the consequences of what they choose?

But, to me, having the same ability as everyone else to make a choice about your life and how you will lead it, is what it is about, whether it's called feminism or men going their own way or something else.

And, I will be the first to admit, that a person's fulfillment in life comes from within themself. I can freely admit that you could put me in chains, restrict my freedom and my choices, but you could not restrict that which is inside myself - you can restrict my body and my movements, but you cannot restrict my mind and thoughts if I don't let you.

So, now I'm going back to my desk at my job that I got because I had an opportunity to be educated and had the privilege of being able to drive here today in a place where I am free to make choices, and I will be thankful that I have those choices in my life because there are many, many people in this world who do not.

God Bless.
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:51 PM   #17 (permalink)
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So, now I'm going back to my desk at my job that I got because I had an opportunity to be educated and had the privilege of being able to drive here today in a place where I am free to make choices, and I will be thankful that I have those choices in my life because there are many, many people in this world who do not.
I think most/every American can say that.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:13 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Heck yeah I'd rather have reproductive rights and voting rights and rights to education etc., even if it means a harder time finding a mate (according to you). It worked out just fine for me: I got the education, I vote, and I married the love of my life. Maybe there are women who can't find the right man now, but I can't imagine that girls who were married off by their fathers had much better love lives....
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:31 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Enchantment View Post
Sure is better than never having had that equality - never having the same opportunities or choices about your own life or your own self/person that others did.

A person, man or woman, should be able to choose the path they want to follow in their life - and that is what it is all about - having the ability to make a choice and have a voice in your own life.

Being able to choose to vote.
Being able to choose to drive.
Being able to choose an education.
Being able to choose a career.
Being able to choose a mate.
Being able to choose when you share yourself with your mate.
Being able to choose parenthood.
Being able to choose.

And, of course, every choice you make has consequences. One must be prepared for the consequences of one's actions. Perhaps some are too rash in not considering the consequences of what they choose?

But, to me, having the same ability as everyone else to make a choice about your life and how you will lead it, is what it is about, whether it's called feminism or men going their own way or something else.

And, I will be the first to admit, that a person's fulfillment in life comes from within themself. I can freely admit that you could put me in chains, restrict my freedom and my choices, but you could not restrict that which is inside myself - you can restrict my body and my movements, but you cannot restrict my mind and thoughts if I don't let you.

So, now I'm going back to my desk at my job that I got because I had an opportunity to be educated and had the privilege of being able to drive here today in a place where I am free to make choices, and I will be thankful that I have those choices in my life because there are many, many people in this world who do not.

God Bless.

While I appreciate your sentiment, I think you missed the point of that remark. I wasn't seeking to demonstrate that "equality" for women was a bad thing. I was trying to point out that the "equality" that is supposedly the hallmark of the movement completely falls apart when it comes to including men, as men, in the equation.

In other words, feminism is all about equality for women . . . but not equality for men. It's a serious subject, one which we are often ridiculed for pursuing ("You're MEN! You get everything you want! What do YOU have to complain about!?!") because when we try to pursue our interests with the same determination as feminists, suddenly "equality" isn't nearly as important anymore. It's "equality" that there should be more women CEOs, engineers, and doctors. But it's not important that there aren't enough women deep sea fisherwomen, firewomen, lumberjacks and mine workers.

So it's not just about "equal rights", or feminism would push for equality when it came to the inequities suffered by men in our society, instead of continuously boosting the interests of women regardless of the consequences. At this point feminism seems little more than a justification for female entitlement, and most men not only don't take it seriously as an intellectual force, but view it as general negative in our society, despite its past successes.

Was that a little more clear?
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:35 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Heck yeah I'd rather have reproductive rights and voting rights and rights to education etc., even if it means a harder time finding a mate (according to you). It worked out just fine for me: I got the education, I vote, and I married the love of my life. Maybe there are women who can't find the right man now, but I can't imagine that girls who were married off by their fathers had much better love lives....
I'm not saying that life was better before feminism, for men or women. What I am saying is that feminism, past a certain point, stopped being about equality and began being about female entitlement. And further, due to this shift in focus it created some profound problems that will take generations to overcome. Not the least of which is that men, as men, are not taken seriously or accorded equity in the running debate about how our society evolves. And not the least of which is that men, as men, have very little respect for feminism as an intellectual and social force.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:36 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I'm not saying that life was better before feminism, for men or women. What I am saying is that feminism, past a certain point, stopped being about equality and began being about female entitlement. And further, due to this shift in focus it created some profound problems that will take generations to overcome. Not the least of which is that men, as men, are not taken seriously or accorded equity in the running debate about how our society evolves. And not the least of which is that men, as men, have very little respect for feminism as an intellectual and social force.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:41 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I think that "gender neutral feminism" is a bit of an oxymoron. However, I think that like most other movements, there's a pendulum and we're starting to see another kind of shift. More and more literature is appearing not just about differences in how girls are treated in the classroom, but about how boys need different instructional styles as well. The disparity in enrollment rates for men in higher education overall has been noted and is being researched to create interventions.

At the same time though, with the overall demise of affirmative action policies, I personally see less and less of the "what else can we get" sort of attitude that you mention. If anything, what I find interesting is the trend within the feminist community rejecting the "getting" that has been so predominant as women have worked to gain equality in the legal system, education, workplace and what have you and instead focusing on the legitimacy of choosing the more traditional roles.

Now admittedly, I'm a bit of a policy and theory geek, so I'm loving watching it all, but from a personal standpoint as well, I think that's a wonderful thing. A movement that started out with the goal of making choices available to women has ultimately created a generation of women that are educated and empowered to voice their choice to fill any of the roles that are available to women, in or out of the home and to present really spirited, well-founded discussion on the topic.

As we see a mellowing of the feminist, or at least women's advocacy, soften to accept that women are equal but not exactly like men, I think that what we're going to be seeing more of soon will be the next wave of "masculinism" as it were. It's a predictable cycle through history as one reacts to the other and new gaps and needs are revealed like the ones you mentioned, Acorn. My hope though, and I think that it's slowly happening, is that the trends are slowly beginning to show the appreciation for the differences and strengths of each sex, rather than trying to make a unisex society.
Love this quote and couldn't agree more with every word.

I only re-post it with my short commentary because I would like it to be available twice.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
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While I appreciate your sentiment, I think you missed the point of that remark. I wasn't seeking to demonstrate that "equality" for women was a bad thing. I was trying to point out that the "equality" that is supposedly the hallmark of the movement completely falls apart when it comes to including men, as men, in the equation.

In other words, feminism is all about equality for women . . . but not equality for men. It's a serious subject, one which we are often ridiculed for pursuing ("You're MEN! You get everything you want! What do YOU have to complain about!?!") because when we try to pursue our interests with the same determination as feminists, suddenly "equality" isn't nearly as important anymore. It's "equality" that there should be more women CEOs, engineers, and doctors. But it's not important that there aren't enough women deep sea fisherwomen, firewomen, lumberjacks and mine workers.

So it's not just about "equal rights", or feminism would push for equality when it came to the inequities suffered by men in our society, instead of continuously boosting the interests of women regardless of the consequences. At this point feminism seems little more than a justification for female entitlement, and most men not only don't take it seriously as an intellectual force, but view it as general negative in our society, despite its past successes.

Was that a little more clear?

Feminism is about equality for ALL, not for one group or another. Any so called feminist who moans about equal rights/pay but then doesn't want women on the front lines, isn't a feminist in my book. I have said it before and I will say it again, if a woman wants to be a firefighter and is able to carry 70 lbs of gear while running up 5 flights of stairs, then she SHOULD earn the same as her male counterparts. If she however, works a desk job at the fire station, not a chance.
I think society as a whole (this generation) is entitled. Everything is instant, nobody saves for anything, everything is disposable, communication is Twitter and nobody knows worth a damn what feminism is all about.....least of all the idiot girls who were sucking face pretending to be something they were not.....in order to turn their boyfriends on.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:51 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I'm not saying that life was better before feminism, for men or women. What I am saying is that feminism, past a certain point, stopped being about equality and began being about female entitlement. And further, due to this shift in focus it created some profound problems that will take generations to overcome. Not the least of which is that men, as men, are not taken seriously or accorded equity in the running debate about how our society evolves. And not the least of which is that men, as men, have very little respect for feminism as an intellectual and social force.
Men aren't taken seriously? How?
You are right about men not respecting feminists though. I guess you can't win 'em all though. Somehow I will live.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:55 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Well, we want entitlements so why is anyone surprised or annoyed when people attain them? Take a moment and think of all the entitlements you expect and that even older generations also expect.

Clean water, good sewer system, meds, retirement, pension, social security, welfare, work hours, weekends off, driver's license, access to food, signs, and the list goes on and on and on.

I've always thought disparity among entitlements in America was more due to classism than anything else.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:56 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Men aren't taken seriously? How?
You are right about men not respecting feminists though. I guess you can't win 'em all though. Somehow I will live.
They don't have a right to get laid whenever they want. Duh.
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:16 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Men aren't taken seriously? How?
You are right about men not respecting feminists though. I guess you can't win 'em all though. Somehow I will live.
Oh, dear. Let me count the ways.

1) Fathers and husbands are the nearly universal butt of every sitcom since the late 1960s. Just about every father or husband on TV is portrayed as stupid, stubborn, ignorant, unreasonable, incompetent, incapable, and in some cases borderline retarded. Sure, it's funny. The first time. But when the two iconic popular culture fathers in America continue to be Homer Simpson and Peter Griffin, seeing straight, married fathers who can manage to get through a 22 minute episode without making an ass of themselves just gets painful.

2) "Men's Issues" are regularly ridiculed and not taken seriously by either popular media or women in general. Everyone wants to go after "deadbeat dads" for child support; no one wants to bring equity to the child custody laws or divorce laws so that mother and father are considered equally.

3) The aforementioned disparity between men and women in the workplace as regards dangerous positions is almost always relegated to the back burner. Yes, anyone can do whatever job that they are capable of, in theory. But how many female coal miners do you see in Western Virginia and Kentucky compared to the number of female welfare recipients who "can't find a job" there when the mines are hiring? The only time men seem to be honored for the work they do in our society is when they die a horrible death while on the job, or contract some nasty disease from work-related exposure.

4) Even when men try to organize to pursue issues of interest based on their gender, they are ridiculed and demeaned by our society. I'm not even close to a Christian, but the flack the Promise Keepers took after they formed was appalling. The Million Man March was assailed as sexist on a number of fronts, merely because it addressed men, not men and women. The moment a "men's group" forms, there seem to be cries of discrimination and exclusion. That happened to me, locally, two years ago when I put one together. We had two meetings before women started insisting on coming, despite our men-only policy. When one was so vocal that we were violating her rights to be included, the group voted to disband instead. Not because we were being a$$holes. But because the point of the exercise was to have a forum apart from women's voices, where our own could be heard.

5) Men are not accorded the same respect as women when it comes to our sexual rights -- male rape is not considered seriously in society or under the law, female molestation of an underaged male is prosecuted far, far less than the reverse, and there is virtually no punishment for a false rape accusation.


There's five. I have plenty more.
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:19 PM   #28 (permalink)
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They don't have a right to get laid whenever they want. Duh.
Either do women. Make sure you remind all the HD wives on the board of that fact when their husbands reject them.

Beyond that, yes, male sexuality is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to most men. You could even consider it a core issue. As such, it should be treated with the same respect as women's core issues and not subjected to ridicule or disrespect by women.
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:22 PM   #29 (permalink)
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While I appreciate your sentiment, I think you missed the point of that remark. I wasn't seeking to demonstrate that "equality" for women was a bad thing. I was trying to point out that the "equality" that is supposedly the hallmark of the movement completely falls apart when it comes to including men, as men, in the equation.

In other words, feminism is all about equality for women . . . but not equality for men. It's a serious subject, one which we are often ridiculed for pursuing ("You're MEN! You get everything you want! What do YOU have to complain about!?!") because when we try to pursue our interests with the same determination as feminists, suddenly "equality" isn't nearly as important anymore. It's "equality" that there should be more women CEOs, engineers, and doctors. But it's not important that there aren't enough women deep sea fisherwomen, firewomen, lumberjacks and mine workers.

So it's not just about "equal rights", or feminism would push for equality when it came to the inequities suffered by men in our society, instead of continuously boosting the interests of women regardless of the consequences. At this point feminism seems little more than a justification for female entitlement, and most men not only don't take it seriously as an intellectual force, but view it as general negative in our society, despite its past successes.

Was that a little more clear?
My post was about both men and women, not just women. Alas I didn't think I had written that whole soliloquy about only women. Shows you how well I communicate.

Seriously, the ironic thing is that the feminist movement in the beginning was about equal rights for both men and women. The initial movement seems to have been somewhat distorted by the more radical fringes, which isn't an unknown thing to happen in movements. Something has to start the pendulum swinging and sometimes it takes a rather ugly, brute force to do it.

I wonder what would have happened if the movement would have been named differently and wouldn't have had such outliers headlining it. We'll never know now. I am not even sure how much of a 'movement' it is anymore. Is the civil rights movement still going on?

And I like your comment about deep-sea fisherman and such. Well, I never aspired to be one of those growing up about as far away from the ocean as there is. (But I sure did want to be an adventurer and archaeologist like Indiana Jones.) But, that merely reflects the choices people are given. Plenty of men don't want to be deep-sea fishermen either (maybe I should be politically correct and call them fisherpersons?), and you certainly don't have to be one if you don't want.

But, if you want to be one, man or woman, then you need to be sure that you can qualify for the job, and the opportunity should be promoted equally between both. Unfortunately, we don't promote these kinds of opportunities to both sexes equally. For example, there's still a divide in our education about promoting opportunities more equally amongst boys and girls. (Do we really equally promote boys going in to what has been more traditional female 'jobs' or staying home with their kids? Do we really equally promote girls going in to what have been more traditional male 'jobs' like being a deep-sea fisherman or an engineer?)

(Don't get me started on the educational system, because I have real problems with it as it concerns what I have lived through with my two boys. There needs to be a men's movement in how boys are being educated. But not to bash men, sometimes you aren't that well organized and don't step forward when you feel uncomfortable with the subject - like with those involving kids - so any movement will likely have to come from a bunch of moms like me who are starting to make a stink about the inequities we see in our son's educational opportunities and experiences. I am tired of hearing about how my boys don't fit into the 'idealized' student model. Nope, sorry, they've got some characteristics that are quite different than that and they are penalized for it because they can't sit still, don't vocalize as well, are more disruptive, etc.)

And firewomen, at least where I live, have to meet the same qualifications as the firemen simply because the job requires it. There are plenty of men who don't make the cut as well. There will always be differences in strength and ability not just between the sexes, but within the sexes. The point is having the opportunity. No one says that you don't get the job if you don't qualify, but first you have to have the opportunity - but remember in the beginning of the feminist movement even qualified individuals would often unfairly be turned away.

I certainly don't deny that there are issues for men. I see it all too often - especially in my divorced friends. But, so many of the men have just as often rolled over and given up. You need to get your rhetorical stick and start stirring them Ian.

One man I worked with just got divorced. His wife divorced him - they have 4 kids. They are sharing the financial responsibility - she had to go back to work and get a job and the child support is determined based upon both of them working. They had to sell their big house and both basically live in something a lot, lot less than what they had before. But, when it came to custodial issues, he just rolled over and didn't even put up a fight for more equitable time with his kids even though his wife actually initially pushed for 50/50 custody.

I asked him why he didn't agree to that and he said that he didn't think it was fair to his kids to be away from their mom that much (especially his girls), but then he admitted that frankly he didn't want to have to be responsible for them that much. It made him uncomfortable to have to be handling all of the daily, touchy stuff with the kids like his wife had always done and he wanted to have more free time. Hmmm....you have to be willing to carry the load if you're given the opportunity. Maybe we should have been promoting to this guy that having a nurturing, 'feminime' side for his kids (or at least a level of personal responsibility) was the right thing to do so he could have handled taking care of his own kids? All right, I couldn't help saying that - just teasing - maybe - kinda - am I?

There's still a long way to go, baby. But, as with anything, nothing happens unless people's eyes are first opened to the issues.
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:24 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Feminism is not something that popped up in the 60's. It's been around for decades. It has taken on various movements as a way to ensure that women have the right to vote, to hold and inherit property (which we didn't get until the 60's people!), to access education, healthcare and to make choices about their bodies, and to be fairly considered for jobs for which they were qualified to perform, and to get paid the same for the same job.

With more rights and more power, women have been able to make decisions about how they want to live their life because they are no longer financially dependent on a man. Women began to question what they wanted out of relationships, out of marriage, out of work, out of motherhood, if at all.

There will always be people who are happy with the status quo if it means they get to retain more power or wealth, which is why feminism, like so many other political/social issues, can be polarizing. I think the whole "female entitlement" discussion as it relates to feminism is bogus and without merit.

Feminism was never about making sure that equal numbers of men and women perform manual labor jobs, or firefighter jobs. That is just ridiculous! Women want equal pay for equal work. So if I have the same job as a man and we have the same experience, we should be making the same money. But this hogwash about women need to be fisherwomen, firefighters, and Conan the Barbarella is just a joke. We are not a socialist society. We all have the freedom to make choices...and feminism has given women more freedom and access to make those choices.

There are still many areas where discrimination against women is alive and well. For example, 85% of venture capital firms are staffed by men exclusively except for the women who are secretaries in the office. It's still very much an old boys network (old white boys network). But in time that will change. And women still make less than men do for the same exact job. The gap is closing but we are still not close to 100% equality.

Women don't want to become men, or pretend they are men. That is not what feminism is about. They want to be valued for who they are - human beings who have just as much to offer as men (although what each gender has to offer, in general, may have some differences).

Men throughout history, up until recently, have not had to face the type of economic, political or social inequalities that women have, and to pretend otherwise is just ridiculous.
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