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post #61 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 06:34 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by WorkingWife View Post
Why do you think that people who believe they are safer with an open carry society are fear driven and only feel safe when they have a gun?

I am not fear driven, yet I wear a seat belt every time I get in a car because I believe it makes me safer in case something happens.

I am not fear driven, yet I exercise, take some vitamins, and try to eat well because I believe it increases my odds at longevity.

I am not fear driven, yet I lock my doors at night (and have a gun in my home).

Could someone with a gun have stopped this particular driver? It's not likely but it is possible. The details of this situation aside, there are many situations where you are safer if you, or others around you are carrying a gun. Even the perception that people might be armed has been shown to deter violent crime.

As for the BLM incident - yes, I believe the five assassinated cops would have been safer if people in the protest had been lawfully armed. You don't think that most of the BLM protesters would stand there and let someone start assassinating cops if they had been armed themselves, do you?
I do the things you mention only because I am afraid of injury or death.

I fear having a gun more than I fear not having one. My husband and I learned how to use shotguns and rifles in KY. We went to a gun range to practice. We learned about gun culture there and it was not what we expected.

The range was connected to a gun shop. While we waited for a berth we hung out with the people talking about our lives and the guns. Most of the time there were families. Great pains was taken to teach their children about the responsibility of gun ownership.

The attitude towards guns is very different from the urban attitude that I am accustomed to. There is a reverence for firearms that seems based on centuries old relationship with them as survival tools. These folks would not be alive if their ancestors did not know how to hunt.

I did not get the sense that people saw guns as crowd control. They certainly did not teach that to their children. In fact, gun culture teaches a respect for life of all forms, killing only as much as is needed and humanely so. I miss them, we felt such warmth and camaraderie with them.

I would not fear guns in the hands of people like the ones we met in KY but I do fear them in the hands of those who are ignorant of a culture that is rich, nuanced and old.

Gun culture protects gun owners and those around them. To own a gun without the proper cultural context is like juggling M-80's a few ft from a crackling bonfire.


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post #62 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 07:06 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

I just read this news article. French lawmakers told Bataclan terrorists tortured, disemboweled victims

According to this testimony, Wahhabist killers apparently gouged out eyes, castrated victims, and shoved their testicles in their mouths. They may also have disemboweled some poor souls. Women were stabbed in the genitals and the torture was, victims told police, filmed for Daesh or Islamic State propaganda. For that reason, medics did not release the bodies of torture victims to the families, investigators said.



French lawmakers told Bataclan terrorists tortured, disemboweled victims | Fox News
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post #63 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 08:47 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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No tool is 100% guaranteed to work in every situation, but being there with no tool when a killer is targeting you is 100% guaranteed to leave you dead.
Exactly. I'd rather have the tool and at least be able to try to fight back than to have no choice.
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post #64 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 08:54 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

WorkingWife, Thor, do you carry a gun with you at all time? If you went to the 4th of July fireworks, did you have a gun with you?

Just wondering.

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post #65 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 09:17 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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I fear having a gun more than I fear not having one.
Actually someone thinking you have a gun will offer keep you out of harms way. More crimes are stopped by the presents of gun rather than the use of guns.
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post #66 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 09:19 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

I think I understand what you're saying, and I was raised in the country, not an urban setting. I was definitely taught respect and safety in regards to guns. And where I grew up, the idea of not having a gun was just ...alien.

However - not all people in rural areas have respect for human life, and not all people in urban areas are either ignorant to gun ownership or reckless or irreverent to human life.

The USA is a huge place with people of different backgrounds and attitudes, but one thing we have that unites us is the same rights. You can't just say "Well, the rural KY folk who have a culture of respect can have guns and the urban folk who didn't grow up with that culture cannot.

As it is, right now in the big cities where we have the most violence, all the thugs have guns. If the law abiding citizens aren't comfortable with owning guns themselves, they can make that choice, but I believe people should have the choice. it's not like the criminals are giving up their guns just because it's not legal.

I also wonder what impact it would have on the culture in urban areas if open carry (with a permit) was allowed. I wonder if it might change the culture for the better. The initial image that comes to mind is chaos and people running around shooting others as soon as they feel disrespected or something -- but when you stop and think about it, it seems that most of the people who would do that sort of thing already have guns, legal or not.

BTW - I don't think anyone is suggesting guns for "crowd control" unless you're referring to my belief that thugs might be more civilized if they believed anyone could be armed, or that if some in the protest were armed they might have been able to help stop the shooter faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine602 View Post
I do the things you mention only because I am afraid of injury or death.

I fear having a gun more than I fear not having one. My husband and I learned how to use shotguns and rifles in KY. We went to a gun range to practice. We learned about gun culture there and it was not what we expected.

The range was connected to a gun shop. While we waited for a berth we hung out with the people talking about our lives and the guns. Most of the time there were families. Great pains was taken to teach their children about the responsibility of gun ownership.

The attitude towards guns is very different from the urban attitude that I am accustomed to. There is a reverence for firearms that seems based on centuries old relationship with them as survival tools. These folks would not be alive if their ancestors did not know how to hunt.

I did not get the sense that people saw guns as crowd control. They certainly did not teach that to their children. In fact, gun culture teaches a respect for life of all forms, killing only as much as is needed and humanely so. I miss them, we felt such warmth and camaraderie with them.

I would not fear guns in the hands of people like the ones we met in KY but I do fear them in the hands of those who are ignorant of a culture that is rich, nuanced and old.

Gun culture protects gun owners and those around them. To own a gun without the proper cultural context is like juggling M-80's a few ft from a crackling bonfire.

Last edited by WorkingWife; 07-16-2016 at 03:18 PM.
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post #67 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 09:21 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

I always admired the British self-restraint during the IRA bombings. People need to be vigilant but not give into the fear these people are deliberately trying to cultivate.
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post #68 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 09:50 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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I believe that Muslims are poorly integrated in European countries. Probably due to an overly sensitive desire not to impinge on the culture of their place of origin.

The end result is that children of immigrants don't identify with their country of birth. Especially if they are at an economic disadvantage which, perversely, is more likely if a people are not integrated into the the local culture.

Oddly enough, by comparison, the US does a much better job of this (not good enough).
I agree and I think it's because the US is a Centrist-minded nation that is better at assimilating and welcoming immigrants than nations like France, whose people often actively make non-natives feel unwelcome.

If they don't want the immigrants, they should be consistent in their policies. I would hold up Germany as a better example but they are largely f-d these days also.

Of course, nations like the US and Canada can adopt this attitude relatively easily given the geographic distance from the ME. The US, of course, still continues to play around in the dark with the economies of these countries without being asked to pay the price that Urp is.

Can't have it both ways -- playing humanitarian with one hand while creating disruption with the other.
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post #69 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 09:52 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Do you mean start killing terrorists at the top, like ISIS leaders?
Pretty much. I would hope the French retaliate in a forceful US style.
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post #70 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 10:08 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

Admit women and young children refugees only. The men can and should fight for their country. Harsh, but it's the best long-term solution I've yet heard. From a senior military officer who spent years in the ME.

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post #71 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 10:08 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by Duguesclin View Post
WorkingWife, Thor, do you carry a gun with you at all time? If you went to the 4th of July fireworks, did you have a gun with you?

Just wondering.
I frequently carry a gun when legal. I do balance factors such as perceived risk, difficulty to carry/conceal, and other factors. When we go to fireworks it has been as a family and I always carried. Family outings are my highest priority for carrying as I don't know how I could live with myself if one of my kids were harmed and I had chosen to be unarmed. Same concept as choosing to not buckle a small child into a carseat or seatbelt and then they get hurt.
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post #72 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 10:11 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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I frequently carry a gun when legal. I do balance factors such as perceived risk, difficulty to carry/conceal, and other factors. When we go to fireworks it has been as a family and I always carried. Family outings are my highest priority for carrying as I don't know how I could live with myself if one of my kids were harmed and I had chosen to be unarmed. Same concept as choosing to not buckle a small child into a carseat or seatbelt and then they get hurt.
Actually the image that came to mind was a British expeditionary taking his family through the Jungle. Pith helmets and all.

Sad that this is what you feel your "society" has come to.
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post #73 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 10:14 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

Whether or not Americans are welcoming to immigrants, large swaths of immigrants choose to self segregate. They no longer come here to become Americans, they come here to establish enclaves of their own kind in their own communities.
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post #74 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 10:24 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Actually the image that came to mind was a British expeditionary taking his family through the Jungle. Pith helmets and all.

Sad that this is what you feel your "society" has come to.
Your mental image of the typical American gun owner speaks to your ignorance and prejudice.

Show me where the violent crime rate is zero in your society. That's the place nobody will have the need to protect their family. Until then what is sad is there will be victims of violent crime. You can choose to ignore the risk to you and your children, as is your right. I choose to acknowledge the realities of the world and to take simple measures to be prepared.
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post #75 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 10:27 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Your mental image of the typical American gun owner speaks to your ignorance and prejudice.

Show me where the violent crime rate is zero in your society. That's the place nobody will have the need to protect their family. Until then what is sad is there will be victims of violent crime. You can choose to ignore the risk to you and your children, as is your right. I choose to acknowledge the realities of the world and to take simple measures to be prepared.
No I don't need to quote stats [again]. I'm not ignorant at all I'm very well informed. I lived in the US for a decade and travelled most of it, my posts are from personal experience.

If you don't live in a jungle, why the need to carry a gun?

How long did you live in Canada for again?
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