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post #76 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 10:38 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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No I don't need to quote stats [again]. I'm not ignorant at all I'm very well informed. I lived in the US for a decade and travelled most of it, my posts are from personal experience.

If you don't live in a jungle, why the need to carry a gun?

How long did you live in Canada for again?
Where is the violent crime rate zero?

Furthermore your experience in the USA must have been defective because your descriptions of gun owners has consistently been grossly incorrect and frequently insulting.

My living or not in Canada is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with anything, most especially with American society and American lawful gun owners.

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post #77 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 10:49 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

If you don't live in a jungle, why the need to carry a gun?
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post #78 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 10:53 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Admit women and young children refugees only. The men can and should fight for their country. Harsh, but it's the best long-term solution I've yet heard. From a senior military officer who spent years in the ME.
This would at least have the effect of reducing the number of refugees to ~20% of what we're taking which is an improvement. I don't think this is a real solution though. It is foolish to think that these women will somehow be liberated and teach their children Western values simply by standing on our magical soil, and breathing our magical air. That the children will somehow abandon their cultural heritage. That schools will somehow teach them to accept their new homeland's culture and customs; and abandon those of their parents. They won't. Each one of these isn't going to happen. You've seen the asian neighborhoods, how they congregate, and refuse to assimilate; you've seen the western schools, which openly teach cultural relativism.

This nastiness in Islamic countries is a sickness that runs deep in their societies, in their cultural and physical DNA. Democracy isn't the cure. Iraq should have taught us that.

These are backwards people, whose average IQ is a couple of standard deviations below our own. They really shouldn't be brought in at all, even if they weren't the violent, inbred creatures that they are. Best to leave them to their own devices, and let them pull themselves out of their own mess. We'll only continue to bungle it by interfering further.

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post #79 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 11:03 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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This would at least have the effect of reducing the number of refugees to ~20% of what we're taking which is an improvement. I don't think this is a real solution though. It is foolish to think that these women will somehow be liberated and teach their children Western values simply by standing on our magical soil, and breathing our magical air. That the children will somehow abandon their cultural heritage. That schools will somehow teach them to accept their new homeland's culture and customs; and abandon those of their parents. They won't. Each one of these isn't going to happen. You've seen the asian neighborhoods, how they congregate, and refuse to assimilate; you've seen the western schools, which openly teach cultural relativism.

This nastiness in Islamic countries is a sickness that runs deep in their societies, in their cultural and physical DNA. Democracy isn't the cure. Iraq should have taught us that.

These are backwards people, whose average IQ is a couple of standard deviations below our own. They really shouldn't be brought in at all, even if they weren't the violent, inbred creatures that they are. Best to leave them to their own devices, and let them pull themselves out of their own mess. We'll only continue to bungle it by interfering further.
@Kivlor - You know I've spent time in academia. I've known several muslim women who were actively repressed by their husbands. Extremely educated women, often supporting the family despite also having small children. One of them was in an abusive situation where I got involved and befriended the woman. I deliberately cultivated the relationship and put the husband -- a complete sexist ass -- in a difficult position where he needed both my and my exes good opinion since his wife worked for us. These women are very much better off, and act very differently, without their husbands. They will not train their young children to act like their fathers, if given the chance.

As for the rest, my point is that I have yet to see a BETTER SOLUTION offered for the refugee situation. The person I had this discuss with was a senior military officer who spent many years in the ME. He described the cultural challenges as not merely different, but alien. His strong opinion, which I agree with, is that only muslims can affect change with other muslims. For the fundamentalists, non-muslims are infidels *first* and it doesn't matter how well-intended.

Last edited by sapientia; 07-15-2016 at 11:08 PM.
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post #80 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 07:41 AM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Could someone with a gun have stopped this particular driver? It's not likely but it is possible. The details of this situation aside, there are many situations where you are safer if you, or others around you are carrying a gun. Even the perception that people might be armed has been shown to deter violent crime.
(Necessary preface that I'm not taking an anti-gun position here, just discussing)

Does a gun ACTUALLY make you safer, or does it only make you feel safer? To answer that question, you have to consider the entire cost of ownership - including how likely it is you'll use the weapon in defense of self or other and how likely the weapon is to be used against you or, in the case of your immediate family, on someone else in your household.

Owning a gun is not all upside, even if it has positive benefits. Every toddler shot with the handgun from his mother's purse is an example of the downside. We can get into a stats and studies war on the topic (I won't engage in that), but it's not clear to me that for the average American the answer is objectively well known.
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post #81 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 08:10 AM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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post #82 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 08:53 AM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Does a gun ACTUALLY make you safer, or does it only make you feel safer?

Every toddler shot with the handgun from his mother's purse is an example of the downside.
As I stated, a mugger knowing you have a gun will make you a less likely target than a person they know is not armed. Recently a car jacker (at best) retreated from our friend when she slid across the seat and chambered a 9mm.

In respect to toddlers accidentally shot, in this neck of the woods there have been 5:1 more kids injured or killed by mother's texting and driving than by handguns. But its possible its an outlier.
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post #83 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 09:21 AM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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As I stated, a mugger knowing you have a gun will make you a less likely target than a person they know is not armed. Recently a car jacker (at best) retreated from our friend when she slid across the seat and chambered a 9mm.

In respect to toddlers accidentally shot, in this neck of the woods there have been 5:1 more kids injured or killed by mother's texting and driving than by handguns. But its possible its an outlier.
Everyone who has used a gun in self defense will have his anecdote, just like everyone who has seen a tragedy. Two of my childhood acquaintances were involved in accidental gun deaths at home - one a victim, one an accidental shooter. My grandfather suicided with his handgun. I've had one in my face 3 times as a convenience store employee.

I'm speaking in the aggregate, for the population at large. I understand that my experience and history are not everyone's. I'm not even anti-gun. But gun ownership in the US is not all rainbows and unicorns either. Any discussion that doesn't acknowledge both sides of the issue is hollow.
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post #84 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 09:32 AM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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As I stated, a mugger knowing you have a gun will make you a less likely target than a person they know is not armed.
I'm not making any argument, but only pointing out this can go both ways. It is not uncommon at all for a suspect to walk up and immediately reach over the counter and shoot the attendant in the legs. In the cases we cleared the reasoning was because they assumed the clerk was armed. Noone could pay me enough to work a convenience, liquor, or tobacco store.
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post #85 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 11:01 AM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post

In respect to toddlers accidentally shot, in this neck of the woods there have been 5:1 more kids injured or killed by mother's texting and driving than by handguns. But its possible its an outlier.
My husband and I were talking about this last night. We wondered if there were statistics to show comparisons between deaths caused by car accidents where the driver wasn't paying attention, like texting, and murders using a gun.

He's been a first responder for 12 years and has seen many deaths due to traffic accidents, compared to one death caused by a gun and that was s suicide.

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post #86 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 11:45 AM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by soccermom2three View Post
My husband and I were talking about this last night. We wondered if there were statistics to show comparisons between deaths caused by car accidents where the driver wasn't paying attention, like texting, and murders using a gun.

He's been a first responder for 12 years and has seen many deaths due to traffic accidents, compared to one death caused by a gun and that was s suicide.
I don't know about texting being broken out, but here is a comparison between traffic fatalities and deaths involving firearms: "But there’s a more basic problem when comparing firearm and motor vehicle deaths. The causes of death are very different. In 2013, 99.4% of car deaths were accidental in nature. In sharp contrast, only 1.8% of gun deaths were accidental. A staggering 65% of gun fatalities are suicides."

(from Gun Vs. Traffic Accident Deaths: Getting The Data Straight | Stock News & Stock Market Analysis - IBD)

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post #87 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 03:54 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
(Necessary preface that I'm not taking an anti-gun position here, just discussing)

Does a gun ACTUALLY make you safer, or does it only make you feel safer? To answer that question, you have to consider the entire cost of ownership - including how likely it is you'll use the weapon in defense of self or other and how likely the weapon is to be used against you or, in the case of your immediate family, on someone else in your household.

Owning a gun is not all upside, even if it has positive benefits. Every toddler shot with the handgun from his mother's purse is an example of the downside. We can get into a stats and studies war on the topic (I won't engage in that), but it's not clear to me that for the average American the answer is objectively well known.
Based on what I have read on the subject, I believe that yes, a gun would make me safer. And make me feel safer. I can't speak for people who don't know how to use them, wouldn't be willing to use one, or are not comfortable with them.

With that said - my H and I are hoping to someday adopt older children from the foster system. When that time comes, the gun(s) will either be removed completely from the house or transferred to a safe they absolutely could not get into. Because until I really know these children, I think the risk a gun an enterprising kid, who was not raised around guns and who may have emotional issues, could possibly get to outweigh the risk of not having one. (Even though I've had strangers break into my home twice while I was home.)

What is important to me is that I have the right to analyze the situation and decide for myself what makes me and my family safest. I don't need a bureaucrat in D.C. who knows NOTHING about me deciding for me not to worry my pretty little head because they think I'm safer without a gun. Or they think I, in my insignificant little life, don't need one (while they're likely surrounded by armed security, since their life is more valuable than mine).

Yes there are risks to owning a gun. Some father just shot and killed his son at a gun range when a hot shell casing went down the back of his shirt and he jerked his arm in reaction. Can you imagine the pain that one human being will live with the rest of his life?

However, you have to remember we have a lot of very liberal, anti-gun people in the media and they play up each story of an accidental shooting with nary a mention of all the lives saved because people had guns. I understand you don't want to get into statistics, but if you ever do, I believe you will find that the media paints a very deceptive picture of the dangers vs. benefits of owning a gun.

What about all the lives saved with a gun? Often by not even needing to shoot it? Those far outweigh accidental deaths. Should those people not have had the right to protect themselves?

What about people who just enjoy guns for sportsmanship? Should they not have that right because someone else had a tragedy or committed a crime?

Children also drown in swimming pools and, believe it or not, bicycle accidents are one of the top causes of death (at least they used to be) in children. Obviously no one NEEDS a bike or swimming pool, but they are not political causes to the media, so those items don't get played up as if they're happening non-stop on every street in America.

In my opinion, yes, people actually are safer with guns, but to me that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that each person have the opportunity to choose for themselves. Especially given the fact that criminals pay no heed to gun restriction laws.

Last edited by WorkingWife; 07-16-2016 at 03:58 PM.
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post #88 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 05:06 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by Duguesclin View Post
WorkingWife, Thor, do you carry a gun with you at all time? If you went to the 4th of July fireworks, did you have a gun with you?

Just wondering.
No. I live in Southern CA and while CA state law says you can have conceal carry if you get a permit, the open secret is that they simply won't give you the permit (unless maybe you're retired law enforcement). So if I got caught carrying a concealed weapon I'd be in a heap of trouble.

Regardless of that I probably would not typically carry a gun. I'm spacey and disorganized - I have enough trouble hanging onto my sunglasses... OK when I visit family in states like Utah, AZ, NM, and we go hiking out in the desert, we would always have a gun on us. I think my dad keeps on in his glove box (legally) but he would not take it into the store with him.

Here in Southern CA, no I don't usually feel a reason to carry a gun just running around. I doubt I would carry one to fireworks. Especially if I planned on drinking or was wearing beach wear.

However, I would like the idea of a few Thor's in the crowd packing.

When I traveled alone a lot more I often wished I had a gun. Especially a couple times when I was young and my car broke down at night.

Now I work downtown in huge office buildings at large companies quite a bit and I think I'd like to have a gun in my purse in case a terrorist or disgruntled employee storms the place. I was once working in an office where we were evacuated due to a shooter in the area who used to work for a company in our building.

But I'll hopefully move out of California long before I could get a permit to carry here. (So there again, the law abiding folk like me go unarmed while someone who wants to do harm won't be influenced by lack of conceal carry permit.)
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post #89 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 05:06 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by sapientia View Post
@Kivlor - You know I've spent time in academia. I've known several muslim women who were actively repressed by their husbands. Extremely educated women, often supporting the family despite also having small children. One of them was in an abusive situation where I got involved and befriended the woman. I deliberately cultivated the relationship and put the husband -- a complete sexist ass -- in a difficult position where he needed both my and my exes good opinion since his wife worked for us. These women are very much better off, and act very differently, without their husbands. They will not train their young children to act like their fathers, if given the chance.

As for the rest, my point is that I have yet to see a BETTER SOLUTION offered for the refugee situation. The person I had this discuss with was a senior military officer who spent many years in the ME. He described the cultural challenges as not merely different, but alien. His strong opinion, which I agree with, is that only muslims can affect change with other muslims. For the fundamentalists, non-muslims are infidels *first* and it doesn't matter how well-intended.
Build housing in their own region, and keep them there. The cost is ~1/3 per person vs bringing them here. Everyone who wants to bring the Refugees here is either more interested in the appearance of helping refugees than the actual business of doing so; or they are completely ignorant of the economics of the situation.

Or do nothing, because it's not our job.

Or just level a couple of large cities and tell everyone to simmer down.

Or treat people fleeing the region the way the Romans did deserters: Decimation. And force them to go back where they came from.

I agree, your option is drastically better than the current setup. But it's still not tenable. Sure there'll be some who are willing to give up their culture, but many more who won't. Which I'm sure you realize, due to your experiences. Heck, look what happened when feminists here tried to get Saudi to give women the right to drive: the women screamed "NO!"

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #90 of 362 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 06:34 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

Even on the best day trying to sell gun control based on gun accidents ain't gonna get much traction. For every kid/person killed in a gun accident someone is going to show you two killed by machinery, falls, backed over or locked in hot vehicles, drowned in home pools, etc. Hence you can't win that argument on its merit.
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