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post #106 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-17-2016, 05:38 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Build housing in their own region, and keep them there. The cost is ~1/3 per person vs bringing them here. Everyone who wants to bring the Refugees here is either more interested in the appearance of helping refugees than the actual business of doing so; or they are completely ignorant of the economics of the situation.

Or do nothing, because it's not our job.

Or just level a couple of large cities and tell everyone to simmer down.

Or treat people fleeing the region the way the Romans did deserters: Decimation. And force them to go back where they came from.

I agree, your option is drastically better than the current setup. But it's still not tenable. Sure there'll be some who are willing to give up their culture, but many more who won't. Which I'm sure you realize, due to your experiences. Heck, look what happened when feminists here tried to get Saudi to give women the right to drive: the women screamed "NO!"
If you want to motivate the men to fix their country, allowing the women who want to bring their children here is a good way to do that. As I said, I have personal examples of women from the ME who adapt to our culture. From what data or experience are you getting your "many more won't"? That is directly in contrast with my own experience.

Your Saudi example is trying to make change in their own country. That is exactly what this officer was saying NOT to do. Bring them here and they will learn to drive. They do, in my experience.

There is hard data from behavioural science that changing behaviour is much easier to do when people are placed in a completely new environment. All the environmental cues that enable the old behaviours are lost, so people are much more amendable to learning new ones. This is how you treat severe addiction, deprogram people who grew up in cults (could argue this is most similar), etc.

I agree with the rest of your comments, except for "do nothing". The US and other nations have to own the fact they created a lot of the economic instability that has contributed to the ME mess. There is a moral imperative to act, but it has to be intelligently and for the long term good of the people in that region.


Last edited by sapientia; 07-17-2016 at 05:44 PM.
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post #107 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-17-2016, 05:47 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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No, that's just a silly argument. Tell me, do you avoid going outside or where a titanium shield on the chance you might be hit by a micrometeor? You should. Your chances of that are much better than the stats you require^ to not carry a gun.

I do not live in a jungle. My country is very civilized. My family and my husband's family have lived here for generations and never suffered being a victim of a violent crime, much less one with a gun.

You clearly DO think you live in a jungle. Okay, I get that, but I still feel sorry for you.


I live in a jungle. Three cops were just murdered. Feel sorry their families.
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post #108 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-17-2016, 05:53 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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The other rights aren't completely unfettered. Lawful assembly often requires a permit for demonstrations, etc. Freedom of religion doesn't allow for blood sacrifices.

I'm not talking about registration or a gun owner database here. I'm talking about passing a basic safety class before taking possession of a firearm. If you think that makes me a brownshirt, so be it.
Ok, let's hear your plan. I want to know exactly what one would have to do before getting a gun.

Here are just a few questions, which are not exhaustive by any means.

1. Would the "basic safety class" be given by a government agency?
2. If not, how would a safety class instructor be certified or trained?
3. Would you have to prove who you were before taking the class? How would you prove this?
4. Would you then have to prove that you were the same person who took the class before getting the gun? How would you prove this?
5. How would you ensure that this information would not be stored in a database that could later be used to confiscate guns?

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post #109 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-17-2016, 06:01 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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I live in a jungle. Three cops were just murdered. Feel sorry their families.
Thanks for your honesty. It's been a lot more than 3 cops murdered where you live...

Number of Deaths in 2016 | Gun Violence Archive
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post #110 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-17-2016, 06:42 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Nearly all of these are due to illegal guns and many if not a majority are B on B. In the same city as the shootings today lives were saved as a man with a machete attacking people was shot by a man with a legal gun.
Just today? Same city even? Wow, so none of those things are common in my country. If we have one incident like this in a year, it makes headline news across the country. Legal or illegal gun, it's irrelevant. It's just that uncommon here.

I'll buy there is a cultural difference between US and Canada.

I will also say that, in the US, once someone HAS a gun, there is no way for a casual person to know whether that gun is legal or not. In Canada, since people just don't generally carry, there IS a way to know that gun is illegal...
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post #111 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-17-2016, 11:33 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

It's ironic, Black lives matter when police snuff them out but not when a fellow Black person does so.

In fact, this thread looks to me to be rife with incongruities, hypocrisies and paradoxes.

The response to the unjust killing of these black men by police was to decry the injustice of it and a movement was born, BLM. However, it is puzzling that people who are so passionate about the murder of black men by the police are silent about the murder of massive numbers of black men by other black men and the murder of White people by Black people, right?

Let me offer an explanation. If you are vulnerable to human failings then you have something in common with these people. We humans have a universal aversion to facing our dark side especially when specific evil acts aggregate in ones own race or religion or gender.

There is another incongruity, the BLM movement is dismissed along with it's concerns because they omit concerns about Black on police murder and Black on White crime.

I don't know if you can easily excuse the execution of black men for having criminal records or running from police or resisting arrest or being suspected of a crime and complying with police commands under any circumstances.

It is difficult for me to put a benign face on video evidence of police lies, tampering with evidence, covering up for each other and perjuring themselves when they commit crimes. It is hard to accept the ease with which they escape punishment.

Incredibly, universal compassion, understanding and empathy is expected of the BLM group to gain them legitimacy. However, we have a paradox, no? The anti-BLM group self-assumes legitimacy with no evidence of universal compassion, understanding or empathy. Is that hypocritical? No, it's just human nature. I understand, I fall into the same trap again and again.


I'm not pointing out the faults of anyone here actually, I'm pointing to myself. It's easier to see the real or imagined faults of others than take ownership of them. Helps me to write it down, I can peek at my faults and wince but not turn away. I hope I can stop myself from failing His test, by His Grace.

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post #112 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 12:09 AM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by Fozzy View Post
We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see a safety class as an infringement any more than I do an age requirement.
What kind of training requirement do you imagine a Diane Feinstein or Chuck Schumer would impose?

There already are places with such training requirements which price gun ownership out of range for most citizens. Is that not an infringement?

Is not a delay or requirement to prove your qualifications prior to being allowed to exercise a right an infringement?
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post #113 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 12:23 AM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by sapientia View Post
No, that's just a silly argument. Tell me, do you avoid going outside or where a titanium shield on the chance you might be hit by a micrometeor? You should. Your chances of that are much better than the stats you require^ to not carry a gun.

I do not live in a jungle. My country is very civilized. My family and my husband's family have lived here for generations and never suffered being a victim of a violent crime, much less one with a gun.

You clearly DO think you live in a jungle. Okay, I get that, but I still feel sorry for you.
I choose to accept certain risks. Being hit by a micrometeoroid seems remote enough to me that I don't worry about it. Last week I rode my motorcycle from the garage onto the street without a helmet, then moved my daughter's car into the garage to change the oil without wearing a seatbelt. I choose to take those risks with the knowledge the risk was non-zero.

I have personally witnessed a zero mph bicycle crash where the rider's foot didn't come out of the toe clip and her head smacked the road very hard. She certainly needed her helmet, and it absolutely prevented permanent brain damage. I didn't need my motorcycle helmet, but it was a possibility I might have.

Just because you are willing to accept the risk of not being able to defend against violent attack does not mean others should, nor do you have the right to tell others they must accept risks.

But really you are in denial that any real risk to you exists. You simply deny that you or your family are at risk because you haven't ever been the victim of violence. That does not make the violent crime rate zero!

At what level of violent crime do you believe it is justified for a person to carry a defensive weapon, where below that level you would prohibit it?
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post #114 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 09:22 AM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by sapientia View Post
No, that's just a silly argument. Tell me, do you avoid going outside or where a titanium shield on the chance you might be hit by a micrometeor? You should. Your chances of that are much better than the stats you require^ to not carry a gun.

I do not live in a jungle. My country is very civilized. My family and my husband's family have lived here for generations and never suffered being a victim of a violent crime, much less one with a gun.

You clearly DO think you live in a jungle. Okay, I get that, but I still feel sorry for you.
I think you're missing his point. It's within your rights to go get a titanium shield and wear it every time you go outside. Except no titanium shield you could wear is likely to save you from a micrometer. A gun is a lot more likely to save you from an assault.

By this logic, I'm unlikely to ever be mugged, so I should take 0 precaution. I tend to carry a knife and keep a crowbar handy in all of my vehicles. I have been assaulted, despite the odds, and these precautions were quite useful in deterring my assailants. . I don't carry a gun because it's a hassle, and I don't really care to go through it. I don't begrudge someone for doing so though.

Life's about finding that happy medium. We have to weigh the odds and decide for ourselves how we want to play the game of life

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Originally Posted by Fozzy View Post
The other rights aren't completely unfettered. Lawful assembly often requires a permit for demonstrations, etc. Freedom of religion doesn't allow for blood sacrifices.

I'm not talking about registration or a gun owner database here. I'm talking about passing a basic safety class before taking possession of a firearm. If you think that makes me a brownshirt, so be it.
I think the question still stands: does it seem fair and just to require people who run printing presses, publish papers and books, or even bloggers or any other users of the written word to go through a basic class on the dangers of the written word before allowing them to just write willy-nilly?

The pen is mightier than the sword, right?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #115 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 02:43 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post
Ok, let's hear your plan. I want to know exactly what one would have to do before getting a gun.

Here are just a few questions, which are not exhaustive by any means.

1. Would the "basic safety class" be given by a government agency?
2. If not, how would a safety class instructor be certified or trained?
3. Would you have to prove who you were before taking the class? How would you prove this?
4. Would you then have to prove that you were the same person who took the class before getting the gun? How would you prove this?
5. How would you ensure that this information would not be stored in a database that could later be used to confiscate guns?
I'm not here to get in a forehead vein throbbing red faced pissing match. I don't really care what you insist on knowing from me. I stated my opinion. Live with it.


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post #116 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 02:49 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by Thor View Post
What kind of training requirement do you imagine a Diane Feinstein or Chuck Schumer would impose?

There already are places with such training requirements which price gun ownership out of range for most citizens. Is that not an infringement?

Is not a delay or requirement to prove your qualifications prior to being allowed to exercise a right an infringement?
DiFi and Chuck are extremists. You're correct that they would take it to a level of infringement. We're never going to be rid of extremists, but I don't think you counter an extremist by going off the deep end in the other direction.

I'm not familiar with places that already do have training requirements because I don't live in one of those places. Are the prices set by the government or private facilities? CCW classes where I live are very affordable and provided by state licensed trainers. Considering the relative price of guns, I don't see a single qualification class as being much of an impediment.

As for the delay, a person could take their safety class at any point prior to purchase. It doesn't have to be the day that they actually purchase it. I took my first safety class when I was 7 years old and have had other classes since, many before I bought my first firearm.

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post #117 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 03:38 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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I choose to accept certain risks. Being hit by a micrometeoroid seems remote enough to me that I don't worry about it. Last week I rode my motorcycle from the garage onto the street without a helmet, then moved my daughter's car into the garage to change the oil without wearing a seatbelt. I choose to take those risks with the knowledge the risk was non-zero.

Just because you are willing to accept the risk of not being able to defend against violent attack does not mean others should, nor do you have the right to tell others they must accept risks.

But really you are in denial that any real risk to you exists. You simply deny that you or your family are at risk because you haven't ever been the victim of violence. That does not make the violent crime rate zero!

At what level of violent crime do you believe it is justified for a person to carry a defensive weapon, where below that level you would prohibit it?
1. It was YOUR point that unless the risk was 0.00000... etc that meant I should carry a gun. So, by direct analogy, why don't you wear that helmet or seatbelt, since your risk is at least as high of an incident. In my case, I am MUCH more likely to be in a car accident than involved in gun violence, so I wear my seatbelt.

2. I never said our crime rate was zero. You are concocting an argument from a false premise I never raised. This is poor argumentation. It IS pretty low, however, especially compared to many places in the US.

3. Are we discussing defensive weapons in general or guns? Please specify. I have a defensive weapon -- a high level in a martial art. I do not require a gun, as they are very rare in our society since they are illegal except for specific uses like hunting. People do not carry publicly in my country and so, if we saw someone who was, we would immediately know to call police. You do not have this "early warning" equivalent. I saw a woman a few weeks ago at the shopping mall who was carrying a gun in a side holster -- I knew immediately she was plainclothes RCMP (our police). It was still unusual and a bit unnerving, it's just that rare. You can bet that if SHE saw someone with a sidearm that person was immediately being questioned. That's how things work (and it does WORK) here in Canada.

Since casual access to firearms is limited, we also have much less gun violence in Canada. We have been over those numbers, and they have been validated from many sources. Our gun violence -- and our overall violent crime -- is less. When we do have mass violence, fewer people die because it doesn't involve firearms.

Are you claiming you do NOT live in a jungle? If you don't then why do you carry a gun?

Last edited by sapientia; 07-18-2016 at 03:43 PM.
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post #118 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 03:41 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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I'm not here to get in a forehead vein throbbing red faced pissing match. I don't really care what you insist on knowing from me. I stated my opinion. Live with it.
In other words, you have no answers to my questions. Got it.

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post #119 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 03:43 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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Our gun violence -- and our overall violent crime -- is less.
The reason that your overall violent crime level is lower than the US has already been explained, but I'll explain it again.

It is because your ethnic makeup is much different from the US, namely in the fact that you have almost none of the ethnic group that accounts for the excess violence of the US over Canada.

Hope that helps.

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post #120 of 361 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 03:45 PM
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Re: Again and again and again...

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I think you're missing his point. It's within your rights to go get a titanium shield and wear it every time you go outside. Except no titanium shield you could wear is likely to save you from a micrometer. A gun is a lot more likely to save you from an assault.

By this logic, I'm unlikely to ever be mugged, so I should take 0 precaution. I tend to carry a knife and keep a crowbar handy in all of my vehicles. I have been assaulted, despite the odds, and these precautions were quite useful in deterring my assailants. . I don't carry a gun because it's a hassle, and I don't really care to go through it. I don't begrudge someone for doing so though.
Just to be clear, this was Thor's argument, not mine. His argument about crime (or anything involving risk) needing to be zero in order to not carry is just silly.

I daresay I'm more of a risk-taker than most. It's where I got to where I am. I just happen to be excellent at managing risk and, at least here in Canada, it doesn't require I carry a gun.
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