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post #61 of 89 (permalink) Old 08-30-2016, 09:48 PM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
I view sitting during the anthem, burning flags etc as completely valid speech.

The only way I disapprove of these acts is if they are not coupled with suggestions about what to do. Basically, you asked for my attention, you have it - what do you want? I am very aware of serious racial issues in the US. I'd like to fix them, but I need ideas on how to do so.
That's a question I've been grappling with too @uhtred

I'll give you my background as a prologue to my remarks. It's cagey because I am concerned about privacy. I am a minority and my husband is not. My entire education and living environment has been among my husbands tribe.

I have experienced racial bias from classmates, teachers, professors and the man in the street. At the same time, I have also experienced love, acceptance, nurturing, mentoring and friendship from the other tribe.

I learned from my grandparents and family members to treat others the way I wanted to be treated and if I believed in a thing, I had to be true in my heart to that belief. My house was a chaotic one but somehow I got that from the way my parents and extended family behaved.

That is a long way to tell you that the only thing you can do is to be consistent in your beliefs and match what you say and do to those beliefs. Don't expect more of others than you expect of yourself. If you believe something, believe in the principal too.

It's not good enough to think "they" should do a thing if you are not doing it. Don't be silent when it is safe to speak up or at lest avoid engaging in talk that violates your principals and is divisive.

Think of this and base you analysis of the situation like these on facts.

Keapernick is being excoriated for sitting during the Star Spangled Banner. The governor of Maine violated his oath of office by saying that Blacks are the enemy and they should be shot. He threatened a journalist and that is a crime.

Tell me what principal do you see in the differential reaction to this man and a football player? Tell me why he should not sit down if an elected official can stand up and dribble hatred and still retain the governorship. A candidate for President of the US says outrageous racist and sexist things. Yet he tells this young man to leave the country.

Why should Trump invite anyone to leave when he should be booted for grave acts of buffoonery while seeking the highest office in the land. You don't have to make these connection but at lest have doubt in your heart that the reaction Keapernick is getting is not necessarily out of the principals people claim.


My magic wand would remove shame from sexuality for all! Anon Pink

Last edited by Catherine602; 08-31-2016 at 05:31 PM.
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post #62 of 89 (permalink) Old 08-30-2016, 10:20 PM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

Part of the problem is that people believe in collective guilt. All people of one tribe are racists because there is a remote chance that an antecedent might have been racist. There is any such thing as collective guilt, IMO. That's why people sometimes react with discomfort in times like these.

I can't expect fair treatment from people that I feel are inherently bad. If I think that then I can go have a beer with my kindred spirit, the governor of Maine.

People feel blamed just because they are the same tribe as a Trump for example. They are conflicted about condemning him because they feel attacked by the other side and they certainly will not want to join hands.

They are no more guilty than I am because someone of my tribe shot a man in the Bronx. My group may be equally as reluctant to condemn these criminals lest they seem to be pandering to the other side who they see as hostile.

There is also no collective pride. Each person stands on their own merit. Suffering does not automatically ennoble a person. The sufferer still has to be a good person.

I worry about us. No other nation can possibly look at what is happening to us now and hold out any respect. We seem to violate the principals in the very Documents that forms our identity.

The world is watching and our legacy of leadership is being eroded. The comedy being played out now has severely wounded our standing among other nations of the world.

My magic wand would remove shame from sexuality for all! Anon Pink

Last edited by Catherine602; 08-30-2016 at 11:41 PM.
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post #63 of 89 (permalink) Old 08-30-2016, 11:52 PM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

Well put, and we have to get away from the idea of collective guilt. It drives wedges in society, creates "us" vs "them", alienates people. A awful lot of the evil in the world has been based on blaming people for the actions of groups.

Rather than a diffuse blame of huge groups of people, I think we want to blame the individuals who commit evil acts. We also need to understand *why* people act and believe the way they do.



Story: Back when I just went to college I was talking with some new friends. Someone said in a joking voice "Uhtred, don't ruin you reputation sitting on the bed next to Fred".

Me: "huh?"
Them: Fred is gay. (he smiles).
Fred: "Hi".
[This was in about 1980. Unless you lived in a very limited set of places in the US, gay people were something you never saw. Calling someone a "fag" was sort of like saying they had "cooties", it was just an insulting word for something basically imaginary. The occasional rumors about someone being gay were not taken seriously - no one actually WAS gay]
{Internal thoughts: WTF? looking at peoples faces they are serious. ??? I guess gay people exist and he is one of them. That's...um...well... lets think. Not obviously bad.., in fact this school is 90% male. So for every guy who isn't interested in women....}
Me: "Hi Fred I'm Uhtred".

Fred and I have been friends since. He married his boyfriend a few years back when it became legal and my wife an I sent them a card. We seen them when we are in similar parts of the country.


So, why the ramble? Before that meeting I was a homophobe. I was a homophobe not because I was evil, but because I had no real image of a gay person as a point of reference.

I see the same for people who hate Muslims - often they have never known anyone personally who was Muslim, they've just seen terrorists on TV.

If you don't know any black people or Jews, or etc etc. its easy to form a completely wrong idea form what is in the media. Its possible to be unintentionally uninformed, and therefore biased.

Now consider. If your only exposure to some minority group is seeing protests, seeing them complain about how horrible people like *you* are, that becomes your image of that group.


I think the gay rights community has done so well in the past decades because they went out of their way to be inclusive. You didn't need to agree with everything. They didn't shout their hatred of all the straight people who oppressed them. The protested against the specific people and organizations who were being directly biased against them.

Somehow we need to make people *want* to change their opinions, because you can't force them to do so.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine602 View Post
Part of the problem is that people believe in collective guilt. All people of one tribe are racists because their is a remote chance that an antecedent might have been racist. There is any such thing as collective guilt, IMO. That's why people some times react with discomfort in times like these.

I can't expect fair treatment from people that I feel are inherently bad. If I think that then I can go have a beer with my kindred spirit, the governor of Maine.

People feel blamed just because they are the same tribe as a Trump for example. They are conflicted about condemning him because they feel attacked by the other side and they certainly will not want to join hand.

They are no more guilty than I am because someone of my tribe shot a man in the Bronx. My group may be equally as reluctant to condemn these criminals lest they seem to be pandering to the other side who they see as hostile.

There is also no collective pride. Each person stands on their own merit. Suffering does not automatically ennoble a person. The sufferer still has to be a good person.

I worry about us. No other nation can possibly look at what is happening to us now and hold out any respect. We seem to violate the principals in the very Documents that forms our identity.

The world is watching and our legacy of leadership is being eroded. The comedy being played out now has severely wounded our standing among other nations of the world.
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post #64 of 89 (permalink) Old 08-31-2016, 10:38 AM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

@uhtred
The part about addressing the specific problem without demonizing a whole group is a really a good one.

Human beings are not made to cozy up in hostile environments, its too dangerous. But we do have a tendency towards empathy that allows us to help people who are being treated unfairly. That fuels our ability to unite against a sea of troubles.

I've been very fortunate @uhtred. I grew up, was educated, live and work with people of races and religions different from my own. I was imprinted early to see them as my brothers and sisters.

It allows me to somewhat understand from both sides and not to feel hate towards people who don't think like me or who seem to hate me. I know that I'd share their views if our experiences were the same.

I find that words and attitudes have a powerful effect on people. That's why leaders can sway their flock to a good place or a bad. I don't think there is any reason to feel powerless. We all have an instrument of great power, our voices.

When it really counts and it is safe, say something to inspire people to be their best selves or something unifying or just remind people of the goodness at their core.

My magic wand would remove shame from sexuality for all! Anon Pink
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post #65 of 89 (permalink) Old 08-31-2016, 10:58 AM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

I think part of the issue is that when a group has been mistreated, it is completely natural for them to be angry at whoever is oppressing them. When you are angry, there is a tendency to lash out at the nearest target. Unfortunately, sometimes that target isn't actually an enemy but someone who could very well be an ally if given a chance.

I'll see a FB post to the effect of "how come WHITE people are outraged by Kaepernick sitting down.... but not about (some serous problem)". It drives me nuts because I am a "white" person (sort of) and I'm not at all outraged by Kaepernick, I think he had every right not to stand. There are people who look like me who disagree, but I support him.

I see the situation not as "white people against black people", but as racists against non-racists. Similarly violence against women to me is about rapists / abusers vs good people, not men vs women.

If people can be alert to, and to the extent possible counter racism, sexism etc in people that they interact with, that will eventually solve the problem. I don't live in Baltimore and there is little I can do about police abuses there, but I can make an effort to look for and fix problems that happen in an areas where I have any influence.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine602 View Post
@uhtred
The part about addressing the specific problem without demonizing a whole group is a really a good one.

Human beings are not made to cozy up in hostile environments, its too dangerous. But we do have a tendency towards empathy that allows us to help people who are being treated unfairly. That fuels our ability to unite against a sea of troubles.

I've been very fortunate @uhtred. I grew up, was educated, live and work with people of races and religions different from my own. I was imprinted early to see them as my brothers and sisters.

It allows me to somewhat understand from both sides and not to feel hate towards people who don't think like me or who seem to hate me. I know that I'd share their views if our experiences were the same.

I find that words and attitudes have a powerful effect on people. That's why leaders can sway their flock to a good place or a bad. I don't think there is any reason to feel powerless. We all have an instrument of great power, our voices.

When it really counts and it is safe, say something to inspire people to be their best selves or something unifying or just remind people of the goodness at their core.
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post #66 of 89 (permalink) Old 08-31-2016, 11:39 AM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

That is where high quality leadership can turn the tide.

If you operate on the premiss that all White people agree with Trump or are hostile to K then you can't complain when those same people think all Blacks are criminals. It's the same thought processes with different outcomes.

The hostility towards Black people may play out in their daily lives. A few racist in key positions with no restraints is very destructive. The hostility towards White people who may live in fear of attacks by an angry Black person or people who have been attacked or experience hostility when they harbor no bias is very destructive.

People who protest bad treatment don't fan racial tension they make people see what they don't want to see. It's uncomfortable to acknowledge evil that taints our whole society. It's easier not to know.

The people who complain are blamed for making people see what was alway there. To see what they feel will be blamed on them as a group.

Effective leadership would remind us that we need to focus on the problem and the individuals at fault. The fight is good against evil and not them against us. It should include all good people.

Some of the greatest changes in the human condition throughout history were led by visionaries who knew men were good at their core and tapped into that fount of benevolence.

My magic wand would remove shame from sexuality for all! Anon Pink

Last edited by Catherine602; 08-31-2016 at 11:45 AM.
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post #67 of 89 (permalink) Old 08-31-2016, 11:43 AM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

The main issue I see with K's actions, is...what's the end game? I love freedom of speech, I don't have a problem with a passive means to deliver the message (versus his post game interview talking about it) and it's a cause worth drawing attention to yourself. But now what?

Will he sit forever? He pretty much has to, right? Otherwise, he is saying he feels that things are good enough in society to now stand. It's the problem a lot of people who show public outrage about a topic face. He is now front and center and people are going to watch him, for good or bad. Is he never going to stand up for the National Anthem again in his life? He has to make a point not to I presume.
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post #68 of 89 (permalink) Old 08-31-2016, 12:30 PM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

You really need to step away and ask yourself, why the intense focus on what a young football player does or plans to do? How is it pivotal to the current state of affairs in our nation.

How could one young man have such a monumental impact on the American psyche at this time? Could it be a massive diversion away from the more serious issues that we face?

It astounds me that this is still front page news when the IS spokesman was killed yesterday. How many people know who he was, what his followers are likely to do and what are we doing to stop them.

K is not dangerous, he is one of us. The real danger is from without and we can't afford to get distracted and misidentify who is harmful and who is not.

My magic wand would remove shame from sexuality for all! Anon Pink

Last edited by Catherine602; 08-31-2016 at 05:40 PM.
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post #69 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 08:27 PM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

People of all walks of life try to be relevant with shocking and unexpected behavior. Is it a genuine attempt to draw attention to an issue or themself? Sometimes I really do wonder.
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post #70 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 08:45 PM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireSto...nthem-41811741


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post #71 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 09:26 PM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

I'll come off the fence. Screw Kaepernick.
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post #72 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 10:18 PM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

https://youtu.be/5uZNNjFRyXc


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post #73 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 10:31 PM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

https://youtu.be/D0tEcuPQnAE


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post #74 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 10:34 PM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

Outstanding. Really.

Back on topic.

Kaepernick makes roster; Gabbert named starting QB - NFL.com
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post #75 of 89 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 10:34 PM
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Re: Kaepernick Sitting Down During National Anthem

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