Why the "red pill" is bitter - Page 21 - Talk About Marriage
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post #301 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-09-2016, 05:48 PM
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

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I think its valuable to consider the solutions that other cultures have found. At the same time its important to keep in mind the different conditions under which those cultures existed (everything from population density to technology).

I've read that in traditional Greenland cultures it was traditional that when a man visited a village he would stay with a family and was expected to sleep with the wife. In a culture with very small populations and a lot of isolation, this could be a very reasonable response to a lack of genetic diversity.
Wow. How did the husband react to that?
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post #302 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-09-2016, 07:17 PM
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

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Maybe it depended on the tribe?

I have heard of tribes where the women owned the houses and could divorce men.
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For sure it depends on the tribe.
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post #303 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-09-2016, 07:45 PM
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

No idea. I haven't been to greenland, but was thinking about it and found out that this continues to this day in some places.

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Wow. How did the husband react to that?
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post #304 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-09-2016, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

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Women get to choose who they have sex with, men generally don't. And do you know where most child abuse happens? Where most child deaths occur? In domestic situations with step fathers or worse, a string of boyfriends coming through the house. I'm not pro abortion and I'm all for shared custody. Women get all responsibility and authority for children? Are you serious?

So women get to choose who hangs around our offspring under a roof that is not ours because we don't get custody and you can't see a downside? Not cool uhtred.
I don't think @uhtred is stating what his ideal solution would be, just something that could conceivably be enacted in today's world. Since there is no prospect of abortion becoming illegal again, nor any possibility that men will have any say in whether the woman aborts, carries to term and keeps the child, or gives it up for adoption, then men should have a say as to whether they want to pay child support.

If that is what he is saying, I agree that this is the best solution that could possibly be enacted.

Always remember the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"
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post #305 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-09-2016, 08:33 PM
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

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Maybe it depended on the tribe?

I have heard of tribes where the women owned the houses and could divorce men.
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Is actually quite common in some areas - but there is another characteristic : all such tribes/clans are extremely traditional and there is no progress beyond what it takes a woman to grow from child (put to service) to elder (by following rules and manipulating others). The tribe as a whole works to provide status quo, any new ideas are treated as anathema to the elders and the way of the people.
And such groups stagnate and eventually perish to expansionist/progressives who follow different rules. Take a look at the groups you know that a lead by women and you can see the same thing, the only "progress" is to address social offenses as defined by the women in charge, and to satisfy the woman in charges position (ego). Those wanting to improve or develop further are crushed by the alphas followers.
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post #306 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-09-2016, 11:23 PM
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

JLD,
This is the bit I am unable to answer very well. My internal default setting is: content
Not happy, not unhappy. Content is just - neutral.

But when I engage with M2 in a positive manner she radiates this happy vibe and I synchronize to THAT. And like magic I'm happy. So this is a very natural, reflexive dynamic. And when M2 is distraught and I help her achieve equilibrium, I feel a sense of accomplishment - see John's comments on strength in my new thread. This is a good thing. So emotionally, M2 is the uplifting ceiling and I am the stabilizing floor.

As to the destabilization that Far did - I don't consider it manipulation because:
- He was very clear as to WHY he was doing it
- He attempted to find a non threatening resolution for an extended time period before doing it
- His primary goal was to communicate how it felt to be deprioiritized - in the belief that once she experienced it - she would make more effort
- His behavior was sincere and didn't erode trust, it increased respect because he wasn't bluffing - if she had left him over this he would have been ok with that


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I bet it will be a lively, interesting thread, MEM.

Wouldn't the bolded be an example of someone "giving too much," at least in that person's viewpoint? Isn't that what motivates the ensuing manipulation (destabilizing)?
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post #307 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-10-2016, 12:56 AM
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

At least I can't think of a better one.
To be clear, I think a married couple, or a man and women with a written contract can agree to permanent joint rights.

I just want to somehow fix the problem that if two people have sex, and the woman becomes pregnant without prior agreement, then try to make the rights as symmetric as possible. Biology ruins that symmetry, but this is my attempt to be fair

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I don't think @uhtred is stating what his ideal solution would be, just something that could conceivably be enacted in today's world. Since there is no prospect of abortion becoming illegal again, nor any possibility that men will have any say in whether the woman aborts, carries to term and keeps the child, or gives it up for adoption, then men should have a say as to whether they want to pay child support.

If that is what he is saying, I agree that this is the best solution that could possibly be enacted.
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post #308 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-10-2016, 01:07 AM
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

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It is not fear as much as life lessons have shown that you cannot please anyone by giving them what they want.

If I were to not intervene, we would have a dozen horses and shelter 20 dogs at any given time for a local rescue, which we neither have the time nor the money to do.

Sometimes the most loving thing you can do for a person is tell them "no".


Iím trying to figure out what you are saying.

Do you mean that you do give them some portion of what they want? You just donítí give them everything?

So what are the things that your wife wants that you donít give her? Why donít Ďyou give her those things?
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post #309 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-10-2016, 01:19 AM
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

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Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post
If the US collapsed and was successfully invaded, most women would switch sides.
That's what thousands of years of history says, anyway.
They did not switch sides. The lived with the hand dealt to them.

They killed most, if not all, of the men. Very young boys, girls and women were generally raped. Some tortured and raped and killed.

But the boys, girls and women who survive this horrible fate were generally enslaved. A few of girls and women were taken as wives. Slave owners always had sexual rights to and female that they owned. The women became pregnant because they were used sexually by their captors. So the women did what they could to raise their children with hope that one day their lives would be better.

Look at what ISIS is doing when they go into an area and win. After killing the men, they are taking the girls and women as sex slaves. Itís horrific for those women. And thatís exactly what life was like for the surviving women in conquered societies throughout history.

Itís a gross misrepresentation to say that these women switched sides.
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post #310 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-10-2016, 01:50 AM
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

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They did not switch sides. The lived with the hand dealt to them.

They killed most, if not all, of the men. Very young boys, girls and women were generally raped. Some tortured and raped and killed.

But the boys, girls and women who survive this horrible fate were generally enslaved. A few of girls and women were taken as wives. Slave owners always had sexual rights to and female that they owned. The women became pregnant because they were used sexually by their captors. So the women did what they could to raise their children with hope that one day their lives would be better.

Look at what ISIS is doing when they go into an area and win. After killing the men, they are taking the girls and women as sex slaves. Itís horrific for those women. And thatís exactly what life was like for the surviving women in conquered societies throughout history.

Itís a gross misrepresentation to say that these women switched sides.


Look at what happened with the partition of India, not only were women raped tortured and murdered but many where encouraged by their own family to commit suicide.

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post #311 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-10-2016, 07:25 AM
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

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Iím trying to figure out what you are saying.

Do you mean that you do give them some portion of what they want? You just donítí give them everything?

So what are the things that your wife wants that you donít give her? Why donít Ďyou give her those things?
Yes.

As Jade pointed out, I wasn't very clear.

More animals. More horses. More dogs. More toys for those animals. She will seek to provide human level care for each of the animals. We simply cannot afford it.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #312 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-10-2016, 07:26 AM
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

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Originally Posted by MEM2020 View Post
JLD,
This is the bit I am unable to answer very well. My internal default setting is: content
Not happy, not unhappy. Content is just - neutral.

But when I engage with M2 in a positive manner she radiates this happy vibe and I synchronize to THAT. And like magic I'm happy. So this is a very natural, reflexive dynamic. And when M2 is distraught and I help her achieve equilibrium, I feel a sense of accomplishment - see John's comments on strength in my new thread. This is a good thing. So emotionally, M2 is the uplifting ceiling and I am the stabilizing floor.

As to the destabilization that Far did - I don't consider it manipulation because:
- He was very clear as to WHY he was doing it
- He attempted to find a non threatening resolution for an extended time period before doing it
- His primary goal was to communicate how it felt to be deprioiritized - in the belief that once she experienced it - she would make more effort
- His behavior was sincere and didn't erode trust, it increased respect because he wasn't bluffing - if she had left him over this he would have been ok with that
His primary goal was to get sex in the way and at the frequency he wanted. He keyed in on what might trigger enough fear in her that she would comply with his wishes. I don't see anything "sincere" in that, nor would I call what was increased "respect."

And whether or not you say, "Wife, I am now going to play on *your* greatest fear in this relationship--my leaving you--and leverage it against *my* greatest fear--sexlessness, at least how I define it--and I am going to justify doing it now because I can think of no other way to get what I want, as quickly," it is still manipulation.

Look, I am not saying I don't understand why he did it. Frustration can tempt people to at least consider employing manipulation. And like French Fry said with her dread game example, manipulation works.

I would add that manipulation may work best short term. Long term I am not so sure. I guess we could debate the definition of "works," too.

But if you have any sense of decency, it surely feels *unclean* to treat people that way. Who wants to "get their needs met" through playing on a more vulnerable person's fears? How truly satisfying can that be?
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post #313 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-10-2016, 07:38 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

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They did not switch sides. The lived with the hand dealt to them.

They killed most, if not all, of the men. Very young boys, girls and women were generally raped. Some tortured and raped and killed.

But the boys, girls and women who survive this horrible fate were generally enslaved. A few of girls and women were taken as wives. Slave owners always had sexual rights to and female that they owned. The women became pregnant because they were used sexually by their captors. So the women did what they could to raise their children with hope that one day their lives would be better.

Look at what ISIS is doing when they go into an area and win. After killing the men, they are taking the girls and women as sex slaves. It’s horrific for those women. And that’s exactly what life was like for the surviving women in conquered societies throughout history.

It’s a gross misrepresentation to say that these women switched sides.
I didn't say they switched sides because they thought the conquerors were peachy keen.

But they did switch sides as the alternative to resisting or killing themselves.

Those women who didn't switch sides didn't have surviving descendants.

This is what I was referring to (in another thread, I think) about humans having a lot of rape victims in our past, which explains some otherwise hard-to-understand tendencies of women that I won't get into here to avoid further arguments.

Always remember the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"
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post #314 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-10-2016, 07:51 AM
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

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But they did switch sides as the alternative to resisting or killing themselves.

Those women who didn't switch sides didn't have surviving descendants.
.
By that logic all prisoners of war switched sides as a alternative to resisting.
Switching sides and being captured by the enemy are two very different things.
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post #315 of 592 (permalink) Old 09-10-2016, 07:54 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Why the "red pill" is bitter

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By that logic all prisoners of war switched sides as a alternative to resisting.
Prisoners of war are passive, not interacting with their jailers other than as prisoners.

Unless they are raped or in some other ways forced to interact, of course, which does happen but is not the norm for prisoners of any kind.

Always remember the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"
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