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post #361 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:17 PM
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
To a certain degree, the 80/20 rule isn't nonsense. Especially in relation to what you and Tech are saying. Think about it. 80% of women find the top 20% of men hot, and aren't that attracted to the rest of us. Seems pretty likely. In fact, it might be more skewed than just 80/20. Probably even worse if we take into account certain biological realities.

Maybe I don't have a problem with this, because I have always viewed physical attractiveness on a bell-curve. It would make sense that the majority of women would look at the majority of men and find their reaction is somewhere between "Meh" and "Ick!"

The problem RP people face is that some of them take the Pareto Principle a little too far.
It is nonsense when RP men try to claim that only the top 20% of men get sex *at all* and the other 80% only get duty or pity sex or get trapped into marriage...when the sex then stops.

There is literally ZERO "proof" of this. What are the actual numbers of how many men get laid by how many women, across all age groups, and then of course, actual "rating" systems put into place to show who the top 20% of men are and what the criteria is based on (agreed to by whom? who gets to decide who those top 20% of males are and what the criteria is?)

As far as attraction as self-reported from online dating sites, which are a very target group and not representative of "everyone", and women rating only the top 20% of guys (again, based on whose criteria and whose agreement on it?), then sure there might be "studies" which would show this type of attraction disparity...again only when discussing "who is hotter, this one or that one?" This in no way gives any data about who actually gets laid by who. That's the nonsense.


Remember the goal of feminism: Making sure only alphas get laid!
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post #362 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
I completely understand that this is what many men who end up RP think.

Hopefully you understand why women are saying it is disingenuous, as by your own admission, it absolutely is.

Hopefully you understand also why women would prefer to just have sex with people they are naturally attracted to, no matter how well you can RP her into thinking you are hotter than you really are....you really won't ever get past the fact that her natural attraction is what it is.

What I would like to see happen, and what is better than RP, is an understanding that working with your own and everyone else's natural attraction is better and will yield better results. All of the people you may see who are happy and committed and still having great sex after all these years were guided by natural attraction, and that is why it should be studied instead of RP.
In a nutshell, this is the reason why I started this thread, to emphasize NATURAL ATTRACTION.

This is why some marriages stay hot and passionate for years and some don't, people gravitate towards who they are NATURALLY ATTRACTED TO.

This may not fly with those who want to marry the hot chick and hope to make her return his passions. Reality bites, she will gravitate towards who she is and who she is attracted to, and it doesn't mean she's hypergamous, or evil. She is who she is, and he is who he is.

The red pill offers him a script and a delusion which he can't keep up forever. He is not being his genuine self with red pill, he is not connecting with his wife. He only sees her as a possession he needs to hold onto for validation. Without this marriage he doesn't get his validation. His alternate self which he wants to hide shows itself as anger and hostility towards women, he doesn't trust them. So how does he expect them to trust him in return?

A warm body with an erection doesn't make a person loving. - Anon Pink

The grass may or may not be greener on the other side, no guarantees, however, the grass is always greener where you water it. - Lila
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post #363 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:18 PM
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by Holdingontoit View Post
You got it backwards. We know she wants to have sex with the hot 25 year old. The question is, how do I, as a not hot 50 year old, get anyone to have sex with me. If you say "sorry, you can't" then might as well RP someone into thinking I am hotter than I really am.
I think that you'd be able to find many women interested in having sex with you, but the question is...are you seeking to be with women who many other men will find hot, and that is how you validate your own worth? If RP is supposed to be teaching men how to be their own men, why does it spend so much time teaching men how to attract women? It seems to contradict itself in that men shouldn't be seeking women to validate them, but that men aren't worth much without the incessant attention of hot women? Being your own person means not following the herd. And believe it or not, THAT is what is most sexy to both genders.

Sometimes, you fall in love with the most unexpected person, at the most unexpected time. ~ Unknown
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post #364 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:21 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
It is nonsense when RP men try to claim that only the top 20% of men get sex *at all* and the other 80% only get duty or pity sex or get trapped into marriage...when the sex then stops.

There is literally ZERO "proof" of this. What are the actual numbers of how many men get laid by how many women, across all age groups, and then of course, actual "rating" systems put into place to show who the top 20% of men are and what the criteria is based on (agreed to by whom? who gets to decide who those top 20% of males are and what the criteria is?)

As far as attraction as self-reported from online dating sites, which are a very target group and not representative of "everyone", and women rating only the top 20% of guys (again, based on whose criteria and whose agreement on it?), then sure there might be "studies" which would show this type of attraction disparity...again only when discussing "who is hotter, this one or that one?" This in no way gives any data about who actually gets laid by who. That's the nonsense.
Red pill guys repeat that 80/20 theory as if it is fact, they love to dwell on self defeating thoughts....

A warm body with an erection doesn't make a person loving. - Anon Pink

The grass may or may not be greener on the other side, no guarantees, however, the grass is always greener where you water it. - Lila
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post #365 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:22 PM
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
So the options, for the careful man, are A) be super hot (something you only have a certain amount of control over) and use your looks to get women into bed, or B) wield money and power, and use women's hypergamy against them to get sex, and dump them. (Because they'll sleep with unattractive men, if said men have enough resources / prestige / power.

Or alternatively you can go the MGTOW route and just forego female relationships altogether.
Or C. None of the above.

A man can simply be a good man, take good care of himself and have good self esteem, be aware in the world around him and of who is actually attracted to him and the whole package he offers, make his decisions about who is also attractive to him and what her package is and what he wants and values in a relationship (if he wants one, which not all men do), and then move toward the one that feels best in his arms (literally, physically, metaphorically, and in every other way).

Remember the goal of feminism: Making sure only alphas get laid!
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post #366 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:30 PM
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by *Deidre* View Post
I think that you'd be able to find many women interested in having sex with you, but the question is...are you seeking to be with women who many other men will find hot, and that is how you validate your own worth? If RP is supposed to be teaching men how to be their own men, why does it spend so much time teaching men how to attract women? It seems to contradict itself in that men shouldn't be seeking women to validate them, but that men aren't worth much without the incessant attention of hot women? Being your own person means not following the herd. And believe it or not, THAT is what is most sexy to both genders.
RP and PUA blogs repeatedly say that men should NOT want to (nor be expected to) have sex with women who are not very attractive. Only attractive women matter at all to them.

Oh and heaven forbid a man actually loves his wife and wants only her....the RP gang will then brow beat him for having "oneitis". This is a curse worse than death to them, and they verbally knock the sh*t out of any guy who has it.

So they are praised for "banging as many hot chicks as you can" and verbally abused for loving their wives and only wanting to be with her. Or for the single guy, they will be verbally abused for having sex with a woman who "isn't hot".

Remember the goal of feminism: Making sure only alphas get laid!
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post #367 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:31 PM
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by techmom View Post
The article you cited is full with junk science and junk theory.

Let me tell you what, people cheat because people want to cheat, some women cheat and some don't. Red Pill offers no answers or comfort to men who seek to make their relationships better other than to say " your wife is a hypergamous s!ut".

How does this serve to make MARRIAGES better? I know that it maybe useful for picking up random women in bars, but, for the life of me, I can't see how these theories make marriages better?

Numerous women posted their experiences in TAM, and they are ignored, because of red pill.

I know one way to make a woman's libido drop is to ignore her and invalidate her experiences to suit your own needs.
Actually, I posted that for the observations on the birds. Nothing else. I didn't feel like looking around for the endless studies dating back to the 1980's, where DNA tests were confirming that "monogamous" birds were not all that monogamous. You are free to look them up. I don't keep the links hanging around.

The benefits of cheating are obvious. The detriments for creatures like birds, not so much. For apes, we see infanticide as a common issue in cases where males grow wise, or in the case of widowed females seeking a new male.

Humans are animals Techmom. They cheat not only because they "want" to, but because they have an urge to. It is biological.

If you are looking for comfort, you should go find a therapist. Or a bartender. If you're looking for an attempt at making sense of the world you live in, regardless of how dirty it is, then perhaps you should look into not just RP, but Philosophy, Biology and Psychology.

How does this help your relationships? Well, it helps you understand why people do the things they do. And eventually, once you understand, it's hard to view those people you would have called malevolent actors all that malicious anymore. Because it was their nature. It also helps you to see similar issues ahead of time, by recognizing the limitations of the people in your life.

How does this help marriages? Well, first it encourages men to avoid marrying women who aren't virtuous. Which helps prevent bad marriages. And an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Now, regarding experiences, have you considered that you're ignoring the experiences of all the men who are looking to RP? All of us who have witnessed hypergamy repeatedly in our lives? Who've been cheated on, because a woman chose us for our resources and not our looks, and thus found herself dissatisfied with her choice?

Oh wait, nevermind, I was looking for empathy from the girl who was posting that all men are rapists. And that same person is on here telling me that we're terrible because we aren't listening to women's experiences? I'm sorry, but people devoid of empathy don't get empathy. They receive contempt.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #368 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:33 PM
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by *Deidre* View Post
I think that you'd be able to find many women interested in having sex with you, but the question is...are you seeking to be with women who many other men will find hot, and that is how you validate your own worth? If RP is supposed to be teaching men how to be their own men, why does it spend so much time teaching men how to attract women? It seems to contradict itself in that men shouldn't be seeking women to validate them, but that men aren't worth much without the incessant attention of hot women? Being your own person means not following the herd. And believe it or not, THAT is what is most sexy to both genders.
The reason that RP spends so much time teaching men how to attract women is because in general men have much higher sex drives than women do in general. This puts most men at a disadvantage because of the age-old truism that whoever is the most invested in a particular outcome has the least leverage in affecting that outcome.

Of course, as @Faithful Wife has pointed out, there are some hot men that women really want to have sex with. Those men don't have to worry about attracting women, so they don't need RP.

However, other men, whether they be 80%, 50%, or whatever the number is, if they are single, will do almost anything to attract the attention of a woman. If they are married and their wives are no longer interested in sex with them, they will also do almost anything to get their wives to regain (or gain) that interest. RP offers them some hope that they can do something about this problem.

Always remember the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"
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post #369 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:34 PM
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
Or C. None of the above.

A man can simply be a good man, take good care of himself and have good self esteem, be aware in the world around him and of who is actually attracted to him and the whole package he offers, make his decisions about who is also attractive to him and what her package is and what he wants and values in a relationship (if he wants one, which not all men do), and then move toward the one that feels best in his arms (literally, physically, metaphorically, and in every other way).
You're right, I forgot to say that there's always the "blue pill". You can keep on doing what you're doing, and wonder why it's failing. Well put FW. Thanks for catching my mistake.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #370 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:37 PM
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
RP and PUA blogs repeatedly say that men should NOT want to (nor be expected to) have sex with women who are not very attractive. Only attractive women matter at all to them.

Oh and heaven forbid a man actually loves his wife and wants only her....the RP gang will then brow beat him for having "oneitis". This is a curse worse than death to them, and they verbally knock the sh*t out of any guy who has it.

So they are praised for "banging as many hot chicks as you can" and verbally abused for loving their wives and only wanting to be with her. Or for the single guy, they will be verbally abused for having sex with a woman who "isn't hot".
PUA blogs may say that, but not all RP sites do. Dalrock's blog, for one example, is primarily for married men who want to improve their sex lives with their wives.

As for how attractive men find women, most men find most women attractive enough that those men are interested in sex with those women. Of course they would prefer more attractive women to less attractive women, all else being equal; that's the definition of "attractive". But most men aren't nearly as selective as most women are in this regard.


Always remember the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"
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post #371 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
Or C. None of the above.

A man can simply be a good man, take good care of himself and have good self esteem, be aware in the world around him and of who is actually attracted to him and the whole package he offers, make his decisions about who is also attractive to him and what her package is and what he wants and values in a relationship (if he wants one, which not all men do), and then move toward the one that feels best in his arms (literally, physically, metaphorically, and in every other way).
You're right, I forgot to say that there's always the "blue pill". You can keep on doing what you're doing, and wonder why it's failing. Well put FW. Thanks for catching my mistake.
Nope. If I meant blue pill I would have described what Nice Guys do.

I meant what I said. Be an actual good man and take good care of yourself.

I am confused you don't seem to know that these men exist (and that they do attract women) but I assure you, they do.
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post #372 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:48 PM
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
It is nonsense when RP men try to claim that only the top 20% of men get sex *at all* and the other 80% only get duty or pity sex or get trapped into marriage...when the sex then stops.

There is literally ZERO "proof" of this. What are the actual numbers of how many men get laid by how many women, across all age groups, and then of course, actual "rating" systems put into place to show who the top 20% of men are and what the criteria is based on (agreed to by whom? who gets to decide who those top 20% of males are and what the criteria is?)

As far as attraction as self-reported from online dating sites, which are a very target group and not representative of "everyone", and women rating only the top 20% of guys (again, based on whose criteria and whose agreement on it?), then sure there might be "studies" which would show this type of attraction disparity...again only when discussing "who is hotter, this one or that one?" This in no way gives any data about who actually gets laid by who. That's the nonsense.
You and I have discussed this before FW. I openly agree that anyone who says that 80% of guys can't get laid at all is either being hyperbolic or lying or terribly, terribly mistaken.

You also know my opinion on the Pareto Principle in this situation. I'd say that most single guys can't reliably get laid in a given month.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #373 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:51 PM
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post
The reason that RP spends so much time teaching men how to attract women is because in general men have much higher sex drives than women do in general. This puts most men at a disadvantage because of the age-old truism that whoever is the most invested in a particular outcome has the least leverage in affecting that outcome.

Of course, as @Faithful Wife has pointed out, there are some hot men that women really want to have sex with. Those men don't have to worry about attracting women, so they don't need RP.

However, other men, whether they be 80%, 50%, or whatever the number is, if they are single, will do almost anything to attract the attention of a woman. If they are married and their wives are no longer interested in sex with them, they will also do almost anything to get their wives to regain (or gain) that interest. RP offers them some hope that they can do something about this problem.
Would you say this is because men associate love with sex? (in a marriage or relationship)

I can't imagine it's solely based on a guy's biological drive? Although, I have a healthy sex drive, I don't fully understand what you're saying in terms of men's sex drives. I can't imagine 'doing almost anything' to have sex with a guy, so I might have to take your word on this point. lol

From a faith perspective, I tend to see men and women as needing one another. This doesn't mean in an unhealthy codependent kind of way, but that we are different enough to need one another's differences, if that makes sense.

You've commented that you're happily married, does your wife know you are a RP enthusiast?

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post #374 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 09:55 PM
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Re: Where the Red Pill fails men...

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Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
Nope. If I meant blue pill I would have described what Nice Guys do.

I meant what I said. Be an actual good man and take good care of yourself.

I am confused you don't seem to know that these men exist (and that they do attract women) but I assure you, they do.
I think there is tremendous overlap between these groups.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #375 of 681 (permalink) Old 09-23-2016, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
Nope. If I meant blue pill I would have described what Nice Guys do.

I meant what I said. Be an actual good man and take good care of yourself.

I am confused you don't seem to know that these men exist (and that they do attract women) but I assure you, they do.
I think there is tremendous overlap between these groups.
Your opinion is duly noted. We all know examples of many types of people with varying levels of success in their romantic lives. The people I've known who are the most successful are not what I would describe as RP or BP. They are just good people who found their match via following the natural attraction they felt for each other.
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