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post #31 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-26-2016, 07:42 PM
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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This really isn't the mind-blowing revelation it's being presented as. This isn't an amazing revealed truth. Any study of history would reveal that men who can afford it have always preferred to marry hot young things. Women for whom the long stretch of human history had their worth determined largely if not solely by whom they married would try and marry a man who was above them.

You what explains that besides hypergamy? Any study of cultural history.
And let's not forget that through much of recorded history, women did not pick their husband. Their parents picked the guy and forced the young girl to marry the guy... usually the guy with the most money who would take the girl. So that very often meant an older guy.

It was not the girl's choice. In much of the world today it's still like that.


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post #32 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-26-2016, 09:10 PM
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post

So if a woman can't find one man who meets both definitions, hypergamy implies that a woman should find the best male in each of these categories, one to provide the best genetic material and the other to provide for the offspring in material ways.
Well, thank goodness that women don't value intelligence or emotional IQ, because then we'd need 3 or 4 men, instead of just the standard 2.

And that would be tiring.
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post #33 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-26-2016, 09:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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Originally Posted by Starstarfish View Post
This really isn't the mind-blowing revelation it's being presented as. This isn't an amazing revealed truth. Any study of history would reveal that men who can afford it have always preferred to marry hot young things. Women for whom the long stretch of human history had their worth determined largely if not solely by whom they married would try and marry a man who was above them.

You what explains that besides hypergamy? Any study of cultural history.
But why do men prefer hot young things and women older, more successful men (as husbands, anyway)?

By a slight coincidence, I've just started reading a book called The Mating Mind which is an evolutionary psychology book by an actual evolutionary psychologist with a Ph.D. in that subject. It's about how our big brains were actually evolutionarily favored by female mate selection mediated by the (evolutionarily) recent invention of "language", which made IQ and other psychological attributes even more valuable than they had been before.

I'm a little pretty sure that it is going to teach me a lot I didn't know about this topic, but I am a bit hesitant to take his analysis as necessarily being unbiased. That's because he made a tremendous analysis error that I can attribute only to bias, in one of his chapters in his book about what to do about consumerism (Spent.).

Always remember the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"
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post #34 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-26-2016, 10:42 PM
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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I see that there is a lot of confusion about two seemingly contradictory notions wrapped up in the term "hypergamy".

Hypergamy is defined as the female tendency to seek the best available male as her sexual mate.

The confusion has to do with the definition of "best", which is bipartite.

The first definition of "best" is "having the greatest genetic fitness".
The second definition of "best" is "having the greatest ability to provide for the woman and her children".

An example of the first type of "best" would be an athletic man with high physical symmetry and aggressiveness that could be passed onto male children, who would then propagate the woman's genes well.

An example of the second type of "best" would be a wealthy and famous man who could provide material comforts for the woman and her children.

The combination of these two definitions in one man would be ideal, but unfortunately they are not often found in the same man, especially in today's civilized world in which archetypal male physical characteristics such as strength and aggression aren't always positively viewed by society.

So if a woman can't find one man who meets both definitions, hypergamy implies that a woman should find the best male in each of these categories, one to provide the best genetic material and the other to provide for the offspring in material ways.

This is where the "pool boy" (genetically fit) and "walking ATM" (provider) stereotypes come from.

I hope this clarifies the meaning of hypergamy.
Wow......what genius Wordsmith came up with this word, this term. This word with flexible term limits.

Yes! It fits women's behavior to a Tea on the Riviera.

Hyper-gaming the mating scene.....Oh Yeah!

It does not work.....well.......at all. Hence the 50% divorce rate.

It does not take into account extreme infatuation...or [initial] chemical bonding. Many young women make poor mate choices that resemble/meet neither of the two definitions. On the second go-around, they vote with their fleet minds, taking better aim at a better man.

Often, the Ladies have poor pickers due to poor role models, inferior education or a dearth of grey matter in their Numb Skulls. Mass Media steers their common sense off to a Cliff Notes Shallow Man.

And prospective partners don a different Persona to cinch the deal, tie the knot.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #35 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-26-2016, 10:56 PM
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post
But why do men prefer hot young things and women older, more successful men (as husbands, anyway)?
You keep saying this too but I have yet to see any facts to back this up. Note: theories, assertions or other ponderings are not facts.

Still waiting ...
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post #36 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-26-2016, 11:08 PM
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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Well, thank goodness that women don't value intelligence or emotional IQ, because then we'd need 3 or 4 men, instead of just the standard 2.

And that would be tiring.
I don't agree with you much, WJ, but damn this was funny.
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post #37 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 12:16 AM
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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Originally Posted by Starstarfish View Post
By why doesn't it get a cool unique name that can be thrown around like an insult merely through the mentioning of it? A term that just trips with condescension and judgement?

With a lack of proposed term, I suggest "Rushing" after my favorite male @$$hole who liked trading in wives - Rush Limbaugh.
Unfortunately, men's natural hypogamy doesn't really permit such things. As evolutionary psychology clearly shows, most men will select women that are poorer, less educated, less successful, and ideally very submissive. It is adaptive for them to do so because it gives the impression to their competitors that they are the conquering heroes. Much like an animal will puff itself up to appear bigger in order to scare off predators, a man chooses to mate with only those he perceives as weaker than himself, so that he can appear stronger and more threatening.

Men, of course, will never admit to this tendency because to do so would reveal their fragility, and so eliminate the competitive advantage they are working so hard to obtain. So they cannot tell even themselves they might possibly get beat by a girl, let alone anyone else. Instead their hamster brains pretend that it's women who cannot handle weakness. This then reinforces the tough guy stance.
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post #38 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 12:40 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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Originally Posted by wild jade View Post
Unfortunately, men's natural hypogamy doesn't really permit such things. As evolutionary psychology clearly shows, most men will select women that are poorer, less educated, less successful, and ideally very submissive. It is adaptive for them to do so because it gives the impression to their competitors that they are the conquering heroes. Much like an animal will puff itself up to appear bigger in order to scare off predators, a man chooses to mate with only those he perceives as weaker than himself, so that he can appear stronger and more threatening.

Men, of course, will never admit to this tendency because to do so would reveal their fragility, and so eliminate the competitive advantage they are working so hard to obtain. So they cannot tell even themselves they might possibly get beat by a girl, let alone anyone else. Instead their hamster brains pretend that it's women who cannot handle weakness. This then reinforces the tough guy stance.
That's hilarious!

But it would be even funnier if conventional wisdom was that men preferred women who could beat them at arm wrestling and boss them around... like the conventional wisdom that women prefer guys who are "just being themselves".

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post #39 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 12:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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You keep saying this too but I have yet to see any facts to back this up. Note: theories, assertions or other ponderings are not facts.

Still waiting ...
Ok, so your claim is that men don't prefer hot young things or women don't prefer successful men (or both, I guess).

If you have evidence for either of those assertions, you could get the Nobel prize in psychology, because it is a new discovery that overturns all previous knowledge in that area.

In addition, if that is true, there is no problem with men dumping their wives for a newer model, and there is no such thing as gold-digging. I'm glad we could dispose with a couple of obviously fictitious problems!

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post #40 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 12:49 AM
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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But why do men prefer hot young things and women older, more successful men (as husbands, anyway)?
You really need to give up on your nonsense theories. When women get to choose their own husbands, they choose a man who is within 5 years of their own age 77% of the time. Most women do not want to be married to what amounts to old men (relative to their own age). Now that women are not forced by their parents to marry old men, most don’t.

difference..............................Percentage of All Married Couples
Husband 20+ years older than wife.......1.0
Husband 15–19 years older than wife.....1.6
Husband 10–14 years older than wife.....4.8
Husband 6–9 years older than wife......11.6
Husband 4–5 years older than wife......13.3
Husband 2–3 years older than wife......20.4
Husband and wife within 1 year.........33.2
Wife 2–3 years older than husband.......6.5
Wife 4–5 years older than husband.......3.3
Wife 6–9 years older than husband.......2.7
Wife 10–14 years older than husband.....1.0
Wife 15–19 years older than husband.....0.3
Wife 20+ years older than husband.......0.3


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_di..._relationships

Quote:
Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post
By a slight coincidence, I've just started reading a book called The Mating Mind which is an evolutionary psychology book by an actual evolutionary psychologist with a Ph.D. in that subject. It's about how our big brains were actually evolutionarily favored by female mate selection mediated by the (evolutionarily) recent invention of "language", which made IQ and other psychological attributes even more valuable than they had been before.
This has what to do with your incurred theory that most women prefer older men.
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Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post
I'm a little pretty sure that it is going to teach me a lot I didn't know about this topic, but I am a bit hesitant to take his analysis as necessarily being unbiased. That's because he made a tremendous analysis error that I can attribute only to bias, in one of his chapters in his book about what to do about consumerism (Spent.).
LOL


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post #41 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 01:51 AM
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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You really need to give up on your nonsense theories. When women get to choose their own husbands, they choose a man who is within 5 years of their own age 77% of the time. Most women do not want to be married to what amounts to old men (relative to their own age). Now that women are not forced by their parents to marry old men, most don’t.

difference..............................Percentage of All Married Couples
Husband 20+ years older than wife.......1.0
Husband 15–19 years older than wife.....1.6
Husband 10–14 years older than wife.....4.8
Husband 6–9 years older than wife......11.6
Husband 4–5 years older than wife......13.3
Husband 2–3 years older than wife......20.4
Husband and wife within 1 year.........33.2
Wife 2–3 years older than husband.......6.5
Wife 4–5 years older than husband.......3.3
Wife 6–9 years older than husband.......2.7
Wife 10–14 years older than husband.....1.0
Wife 15–19 years older than husband.....0.3
Wife 20+ years older than husband.......0.3


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_di..._relationships
Finally, some actual facts, from the US census and recent ones at that! There goes your theory (at least part of it) Tech.
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post #42 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 07:37 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
You really need to give up on your nonsense theories. When women get to choose their own husbands, they choose a man who is within 5 years of their own age 77% of the time. Most women do not want to be married to what amounts to old men (relative to their own age). Now that women are not forced by their parents to marry old men, most don’t.

difference..............................Percentage of All Married Couples
Husband 20+ years older than wife.......1.0
Husband 15–19 years older than wife.....1.6
Husband 10–14 years older than wife.....4.8
Husband 6–9 years older than wife......11.6
Husband 4–5 years older than wife......13.3
Husband 2–3 years older than wife......20.4
Husband and wife within 1 year.........33.2
Wife 2–3 years older than husband.......6.5
Wife 4–5 years older than husband.......3.3
Wife 6–9 years older than husband.......2.7
Wife 10–14 years older than husband.....1.0
Wife 15–19 years older than husband.....0.3
Wife 20+ years older than husband.......0.3


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_di..._relationships
Thanks for demonstrating my point. Yes, women mostly marry men within 5 years of their age, but that disparity is much more likely to be "husband older than wife" than the reverse.

E.g., "Husband 2-3 years older than wife" is over 3x "Wife 2-3 years older than husband", "Husband 4-5 years older than wife" is over 4x "Wife older than husband", and "Husband 6-9 years older than wife" is also over 4x "Wife older than husband". In fact, there is no age disparity listed where "Husband x-y years older than wife" is less than 3x "Wife x-y years older than husband".

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post #43 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 07:47 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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Originally Posted by Starstarfish View Post
This really isn't the mind-blowing revelation it's being presented as. This isn't an amazing revealed truth. Any study of history would reveal that men who can afford it have always preferred to marry hot young things. Women for whom the long stretch of human history had their worth determined largely if not solely by whom they married would try and marry a man who was above them.

You what explains that besides hypergamy? Any study of cultural history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sonja View Post
Got any actual facts to back that up?
@Starstarfish, maybe you can explain the facts of life to @Red Sonja, who doubts that men prefer hot young things and women prefer older, more successful men.

Always remember the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"
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post #44 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

Also, I haven't seen any comments at all on the female dual mating strategy, whereby women prefer to marry men with resources but also have sex with other men who are physically attractive, assuming that they are not married to someone they find particularly physically attractive.

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post #45 of 90 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 08:09 AM
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Re: The two facets of hypergamy

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Also, I haven't seen any comments at all on the female dual mating strategy, whereby women prefer to marry men with resources but also have sex with other men who are physically attractive, assuming that they are not married to someone they find particularly physically attractive.
In cases women were forced into marriage (or view marriage as a business) it makes total and complete sense.
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