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post #31 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 10:44 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by Married but Happy View Post
@Kivlor - you mention race. I did not, and mostly I am thinking about other kinds of bigotry. Race is already an issue, but one that may not change much with this election.
Pray tell, what discrimination did you mean? And I'm sure you've seen plenty of these claims. Here's one from the other candidate.

Half of the other party is racist sexist xenophobic islamophobic, you name it.

I'm not going to bother with linking to all manner of articles and news shows that have said as much. I got fed up with it when many people accused me (in person, not just the crazy on the news) of being racist for not voting Barry in '08 and '12.

When you're racist / sexist / xenophobic / islamophobic for disagreeing with someone's policies and behaviors, then those words are truly losing their meaning.


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post #32 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 10:54 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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1) I think this is a perfect demonstration of what is wrong with the population, and why we have found ourselves where we are. You honestly think the POTUS is supposed to run the country. How sad. We've given up on self-governance and rather find that a large portion of the population desires Technocratic rule of an Oligarchy.
Remember eight years ago on November 9, 2008 when Valerie Jarrett (Obama's closest aid) said on national tv that he is "Ready to Rule from day 1"? The elites see themselves as rulers not representatives. Nor do they see themselves as having any obligation to uphold and defend the Constitution despite any oath of office they may take.

https://youtu.be/q7Nlq80DVpo

A year ago, the American population was supporting two royal families, Bush and Clinton. Seriously, most of the population wanted someone from one of these families as President not because of their abilities or policies, but because they liked the families. And there was also a contingent promoting the idea of Michelle Obama running for President.

We've become what the Founders feared and predicted.
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post #33 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 10:57 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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2 thoughts on this post.

1) I think this is a perfect demonstration of what is wrong with the population, and why we have found ourselves where we are. You honestly think the POTUS is supposed to run the country. How sad. We've given up on self-governance and rather find that a large portion of the population desires Technocratic rule of an Oligarchy.

2) How is she more qualified for the position? What about her is better? All we see are assertions, over and over. I think an honest look at this, and you'll see that Trump is the better choice of the two. Not a good choice mind you. But the better. Under no circumstances would we give anyone else access to Classified information after doing what Clinton has now been proven to have done. Certainly not the access to such information that being POTUS would grant.

Here's a thought experiment for the pro-Hillary folks out there. When asked if she whiped her server of information, she said "You mean with a cloth?" and "I don't know how how it works digitally at all."

Now, do you believe her when she says this? Because if so, you are stating that a person who has no understanding of what the term "wiping" an electronic device means should be in charge of the highest station in government, and is more competent than a man who does, or you are stating that she is lying to people because she committed a series of felonies, and that a felon should be POTUS rather than a non-felon.

Which is it?
don't care about any of this. She has more experience as a politician. Case closed for me.
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post #34 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 11:04 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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2) How is she more qualified for the position? What about her is better? All we see are assertions, over and over. I think an honest look at this, and you'll see that Trump is the better choice of the two.
No, I will not.

Because there is no objective measure. Insofar as we value different abilities in our leaders, we will disagree on who better exemplifies those qualities.

Believing that if only I was more informed I would see things your way is patronizing in the extreme.



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post #35 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 11:05 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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don't care about any of this. She has more experience as a politician. Case closed for me.
Can you explain for us here how more time spent as a politician equivocates with better fitted for the position of President of the United States?

Does some ephemeral "experience" make someone good at a job, even if that experience is without one day of success at the job?

Would you hire a plumber with more years as a plumber, but whose every job had resulted in massive additional repairs needed by a second plumber?

Do you think that politicians should be lifelong careers, where we judge the candidates' fitness by how many years they've been in office?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
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For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #36 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 11:08 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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Let us not forget Al Gore in 2000. As recently as this calendar year on this very forum I've read people saying GWB stole that election. The sour grapes are still there from 16 years ago with the Dems. The hypocrisy would be breathtaking if it weren't SOP for them.
F### all. How about you put away that big fat brush you like to paint with and deal with people as individuals instead of stereotypes?

If I have to read one more article that starts with "libs do this" or "repubs do that" I'm gonna puke.

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post #37 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 11:09 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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No, I will not.

Because there is no objective measure. Insofar as we value different abilities in our leaders, we will disagree on who better exemplifies those qualities.

Believing that if only I was more informed I would see things your way is patronizing in the extreme.



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It's objective.

I think that if I were more informed on many things I'd likely have different opinions than I do currently as well.

What's great about this is that you refuse to set any objective standards, while trying to defend some objective state of being correct. If you really hold this position, are you willing to state that there's nothing objectively wrong with Trump, and that your complaints about him are subjective?

So, is this an election purely of your emotions? Are you ceding that this is about anything measurable, and that you are no more than a child, stamping their foot? Am I misreading this?

"You're patronizing me!" You sound like an SJW screaming at the oppression olympics, rather than someone interested in any real debate or discourse.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #38 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 11:10 AM
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Re: Who will win?

^
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So many can't even name the three different branches of government. Do you expect them to vote smart? As Hillary said in one of her emails, it is an idiotic generation that only follows trends.

Even if I don't get likes for it, I'm still going to say it.
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post #39 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 11:31 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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It's objective.
No it is not. There's not POTUS SAT whereby we discover the ability of a proposed politician to fill the role. There's no Kobayashi Maru simulator for the job.

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I think that if I were more informed on many things I'd likely have different opinions than I do currently as well.
Me too. What makes you think I'm not informed on Hillary vs. Trump and you, by comparison, are so much more knowledgeable? Simply because I disagree with you?

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What's great about this is that you refuse to set any objective standards, while trying to defend some objective state of being correct. If you really hold this position, are you willing to state that there's nothing objectively wrong with Trump, and that your complaints about him are subjective?
I never claimed that there was any objective standard of correctness. Of course it's subjective. Always has been, always will be. There's nothing objectively wrong with Trump. There's nothing objectively wrong with Hillary. Pick the one who will do the job, in your opinion, most to your liking.

Quote:
So, is this an election purely of your emotions? Are you ceding that this is about anything measurable, and that you are no more than a child, stamping their foot? Am I misreading this?

"You're patronizing me!" You sound like an SJW screaming at the oppression olympics, rather than someone interested in any real debate or discourse.
I don't like Trump because he personifies a whole bunch of things that I personally find loathsome. Much more so than Hillary. And no, there's not a damned thing objective about it. It's what I find compelling and important. And I get to decide, for myself, what those things are.

I thought I was having a reasonable discussion, but thanks for the reminder of why you were in my kill file for so long.

Last edited by Cletus; 11-01-2016 at 11:36 AM.
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post #40 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 02:13 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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F### all. How about you put away that big fat brush you like to paint with and deal with people as individuals instead of stereotypes?

If I have to read one more article that starts with "libs do this" or "repubs do that" I'm gonna puke.

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Who is it, which side is it, that has been screaming and yelling about Trump's comment he may not accept the outcome of the election? Not the Republicans, not the conservatives, not the Constitutionalists, not the Tea Party. It has been liberals, Democrats, Progressives, and the liberal mainstream media.

Even on this very forum we've seen it.

So I pointed out the utter hypocrisy of the situation. Sixteen years ago all we had was a howling cacophony from the left about how GWB stole the damn election. Up until Trump's recent comment, one could still find people claiming GWB stole the election.

The faux outrage from the left is really unbelievable sometimes.

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post #41 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 02:31 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Who is it, which side is it, that has been screaming and yelling about Trump's comment he may not accept the outcome of the election? Not the Republicans, not the conservatives, not the Constitutionalists, not the Tea Party. It has been liberals, Democrats, Progressives, and the liberal mainstream media.

Even on this very forum we've seen it.

So I pointed out the utter hypocrisy of the situation. Sixteen years ago all we had was a howling cacophony from the left about how GWB stole the damn election. Up until Trump's recent comment, one could still find people claiming GWB stole the election.

The faux outrage from the left is really unbelievable sometimes.
Do you see me doing it? Do you see me lumping you into a collective group to whom I get to ascribe characteristics to advance my argument?

If you want to be outraged at ME, for what I say, have at it. Otherwise, you're just tilting at a stereotype or a strawman of your own making.

So I get to scream about Trump not accepting the outcome of the election if I want without hypocrisy, because I wasn't running around screaming about the illegitimacy of the 2000 election. I can assure you, any outrage I feel is sincere. You don't get to dismiss it simply because I don't share your political persuasion or because someone somewhere cried about it 16 years ago.
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post #42 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 02:48 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Do you see me doing it? Do you see me lumping you into a collective group to whom I get to ascribe characteristics to advance my argument?

If you want to be outraged at ME, for what I say, have at it. Otherwise, you're just tilting at a stereotype or a strawman of your own making.

So I get to scream about Trump not accepting the outcome of the election if I want without hypocrisy, because I wasn't running around screaming about the illegitimacy of the 2000 election. I can assure you, any outrage I feel is sincere. You don't get to dismiss it simply because I don't share your political persuasion or because someone somewhere cried about it 16 years ago.
I don't know why you're all butt hurt about my post. I was responding to this one which didn't even involve you.

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Originally Posted by arbitrator View Post

Notwithstanding, Trump will never concede his election defeat but will offer up some rather vociferous "sour grapes speech" extolling that the electoral college is "rigged" and needs to be constitutionally abolished and to further announce the immediate formation of his brand new news network!

Good luck with all of that, Donald!

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When one comments about a larger group it does not by definition include every single person who may have similar political beliefs. If you didn't care in 2000 about Gore's antics, fine you're not individually being a hypocrite if you complain about Trump's comments. But the fact remains that Trump's comment is being used as a central part of the Democrat, liberal, progressive, media campaign to malign him. And the vast majority of those doing so are the exact same people and the exact same organizations that were apoplectically refusing to accept Bush won in 2000, and continued to refuse to accept the results of that election right up until mere days ago when suddenly they forgot all about it.
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post #43 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 03:14 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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I don't know why you're all butt hurt about my post. I was responding to this one which didn't even involve you.
Because it's intellectually lazy. It's an invalid argument. You've gotten so thoroughly used to doing it that you couldn't even help yourself when responding to me - "liberal faux outrage".

You're a smart guy. You're better than that. You can stand toe to toe with anyone here in an actual mano-a-mano argument. You don't need to stoop to stereotyping which does nothing but deflate your arguments.

I'm going to make a guess here, which I can't substantiate with anything but anecdotal data, that the vast majority of liberals accepted the outcome of the Bush/Gore election. They may not have liked it, but they accepted it. So some blowhards in the media made a ruckus and claimed it wasn't valid. BFD. They aren't paid to represent me or any of the other thinking individuals who get tarred with the "liberals are idiots" brush you carry around here like some kind of weapon. You want me to judge you against Anne Coulter? Well, maybe you do, but that would be a little embarrassing.

C'mon, man. I expect better from you.
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post #44 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 03:32 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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All I know is we will all lose.
We all lost and became the laughing stock of the world when these are the best two that 300M people can come up with.

Well we all lost when Bernie got cheated out of the Democratic nomination but unfortunately there's nothing we can do about that now.
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post #45 of 171 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 03:37 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Apparently in some States you can recall your early vote if you change your mind!
I think it's about 5 states do that. Isn't that the most ridiculous idea ever? I wonder what idiots thought of that one.
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