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post #46 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 04:49 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by WonkyNinja View Post
Well we all lost when Bernie got cheated out of the Democratic nomination
He was not only cheated, but was set up to fail by the Democratic party. They wanted a safe token running mate but were not prepared when he gained serious support and threatened her nomination.

While I would not vote for Sanders (he is a little to socialist for me) I have respect for him, he seems honest and is passionate for what he believes in, a good character trait.

Not like the two clowns we have now.

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post #47 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 05:24 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
Because it's intellectually lazy. It's an invalid argument. You've gotten so thoroughly used to doing it that you couldn't even help yourself when responding to me - "liberal faux outrage".

You're a smart guy. You're better than that. You can stand toe to toe with anyone here in an actual mano-a-mano argument. You don't need to stoop to stereotyping which does nothing but deflate your arguments.

I'm going to make a guess here, which I can't substantiate with anything but anecdotal data, that the vast majority of liberals accepted the outcome of the Bush/Gore election. They may not have liked it, but they accepted it. So some blowhards in the media made a ruckus and claimed it wasn't valid. BFD. They aren't paid to represent me or any of the other thinking individuals who get tarred with the "liberals are idiots" brush you carry around here like some kind of weapon. You want me to judge you against Anne Coulter? Well, maybe you do, but that would be a little embarrassing.

C'mon, man. I expect better from you.

I still don't know why you're taking this so personally. "Liberal Faux Outrage" is 100% accurate in what is happening. Not every liberal who is upset about Trump maybe not accepting the results is faking it, but this cacophony of outrage is absolutely manufactured and fake.

I'm not going to go back to find it and quote it for you, but I did say fine you are not a hypocrite if you personally never said anything about GWB not legitimately winning in 2000. You are excused from my comment about libs, progs, dems, and the media. I have heard from many individuals in conversation and seen on numerous internet discussions the belief that GWB stole the election.

But my comment still stands and is not lazy. Those who are using Trump's comment are indeed the very same individual human beings and the very same libera/progressive/dnc/media organizations which have been saying for the last 15yrs 11months 15 days that GWB stole the election. Those people and many regular folks on the left are indeed guilty of either faux outrage or they are hypocrits. They wouldn't be drumming it so loud as a campaign issue if they didn't believe it resonated with voters.

Those people are not you and do not represent you. I have said this now, what, 3 or 4 times. My comments exclude you. But what do you expect me to do, name a specific number? 123,543,221 people? I have named groups. DNC. Hillary. Hillary's campaign. All manner of left/liberal/progressive activist groups. The left mainstream media. So you are not a member of one of those groups, and thus my comment doesn't apply to you.

Last edited by Thor; 11-01-2016 at 05:30 PM.
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post #48 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 06:06 PM
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Re: Who will win?

Comrade Kivlor,

Kleptocracy bothers you, but corporatocracy doesn't?

Why are we all of a sudden worrying about Bill's indiscretions but not about his worst decision ever, to let the Commodities Modernization Act thru? Or repealing Glass Steagalt?
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post #49 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 08:12 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
That was hilarious. The lack of any self-awareness among the faithful is always good for a laugh.
The hell?

Quote:
"Trump is unfit to lead, so I'm voting for Hillary."
No, Trumpski is unfit to be human, let alone lead. I'm voting for Hillary because she beat Bernie in the primaries.

Quote:
So you imply that Hillary is fit to lead.
No, I'll come right out and say it. She's fit to lead.

Quote:
When she is demonstrably not.
So demonstrate it. That describes Trump not Clinton.

Quote:
What great thing has she accomplished?
What great things has Trump accomplished?

Quote:
What has she touched while in power that did not end in disaster or scandal?
What things has she done that did end in disaster or scandal? What things has Trump done, period?

[/quote]The conflating of political experience as coaching experience is quite alarming I think. The idea that only the Experts are fit to lead completely gives up on republicanism, and rather says that you aren't fit to govern yourselves, but that the Technocrats are your rightful masters. People making such arguments are either completely unaware of the arguments they make, or they absolutely hate the idea of a republic and self-rule.[/quote]

I would attribute much of what you said to paranoia. This country is of, for, and by the people. YOU are the government. So instead of trying to tear it apart, we should be trying to fix it. Experts in what? Big corporations, and especially billionaires, are dictatorships, not democracies or republics. What makes a lousy businessman/conman qualified to lead a democratic republic?

Quote:
Here's the real breakdown folks:

Trump is a blowhard who is appealing to the masses. He offers the people what they want when they are asked, which is called Populism. (Personally, I'm a fan of republicanism (little r) so I have serious reservations with that, because it smacks of the tyranny of the majority. Most people want something done about illegal immigrants. Most people want something done about trade. Most people want something done about the stagnation of wages and destruction of opportunity for the blue-collar sector. Most people want to stop invading every little upstart in North Africa and the Middle East. So he promises to do what they ask. It's closer to democracy than technocracy though.
All Trump's promises are empty. What makes people think he'll follow through on any of them? I really want to know.

Quote:
Clinton is a corrupt kleptocrat and a power-hungry demagogue. She and her friends have sold US interests (including the attempted sale of military secrets to the Chinese) because she has no care for the people, and views them with contempt. She is demonstrably pro-intervention in the Middle East and North Africa, and is posturing for some sort of renewed cold (possibly hot?) war with the Russian Federation. Kleptocracy is a pure tyranny, and is not in the best interests of anyone but those who hold the power at the top.
Grains of truth, but mostly exaggeration.

Quote:
Johnson is a moron who has no understanding of just about any issue. He is a walking billboard advertisement for why we should ban drugs (and I'm in favor of legalizing them ). He can't hold coherent thoughts, however, for those regressive "progressives" out there, he does offer something you can get behind: Legalize Drugs, Cap and Trade carbon taxes and open borders. He will destroy the country demographically speaking, and many economic sectors will crumble if he has his way, but he's not likely to entangle us in Syria or abroad.

Stein is a communist. Look up the term. She's definitely the most honest of the politicians running, and probably the least crazy (and I'm a free-market liberal). She has a solid understanding of international geo-politics. She is a disaster in many ways, but she is certainly competent. If you're a regressive "progressive" this is your candidate. She's smart. She holds all of the values you claim to hold. She's not obviously corrupt.
I don't disagree about those two, who are essentially irrelevant to this election (except to the extent they siphon support from the major party candidates).

-10th Engineer Harrison

"“Your brunette,” was how Gleed had described her. What had given him that idea? Had she made some remark that he’d construed as complimentary because it had contained no reference to outsize ears?" - "And Then There Were None", Eric Frank Russell, 1951.
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post #50 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 08:14 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Only if he changed to a Democrat.

He has, though not recently.

"“Your brunette,” was how Gleed had described her. What had given him that idea? Had she made some remark that he’d construed as complimentary because it had contained no reference to outsize ears?" - "And Then There Were None", Eric Frank Russell, 1951.
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post #51 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 08:18 PM
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Re: Who will win?

I think Trump will win. Lots of closet Trump lovers and this last email resurgence has pushed a lot of undecideds to him.
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post #52 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 08:19 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by Thor View Post
Let us not forget Al Gore in 2000. As recently as this calendar year on this very forum I've read people saying GWB stole that election. The sour grapes are still there from 16 years ago with the Dems. The hypocrisy would be breathtaking if it weren't SOP for them.
I voted for McCain in the primaries for that election.

"“Your brunette,” was how Gleed had described her. What had given him that idea? Had she made some remark that he’d construed as complimentary because it had contained no reference to outsize ears?" - "And Then There Were None", Eric Frank Russell, 1951.
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post #53 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 08:32 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by Thor View Post


Who is it, which side is it, that has been screaming and yelling about Trump's comment he may not accept the outcome of the election? Not the Republicans, not the conservatives, not the Constitutionalists, not the Tea Party. It has been liberals, Democrats, Progressives, and the liberal mainstream media.
[/quote]So I pointed out the utter hypocrisy of the situation. Sixteen years ago all we had was a howling cacophony from the left about how GWB stole the damn election. Up until Trump's recent comment, one could still find people claiming GWB stole the election.

The faux outrage from the left is really unbelievable sometimes.[/QUOTE]

The faux outrage from Trump when he loses will be pretty unbelievable. As I recall, it was Gore himself who conceded the election to Dubya, and not long after the votes were counted. But that was a pretty close election, by comparison to what this one is likely to be.

-10th Engineer Harrison

"“Your brunette,” was how Gleed had described her. What had given him that idea? Had she made some remark that he’d construed as complimentary because it had contained no reference to outsize ears?" - "And Then There Were None", Eric Frank Russell, 1951.
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post #54 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 08:58 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by 10th Engineer Harrison View Post
The faux outrage from Trump when he loses will be pretty unbelievable. As I recall, it was Gore himself who conceded the election to Dubya, and not long after the votes were counted. But that was a pretty close election, by comparison to what this one is likely to be.

-10th Engineer Harrison
We'll see what happens if he does lose. If there is demonstrable voter fraud then he has good reason to complain. If he whines that the media was unfair, he'd just be a sore loser. If there is some crazy dirty surprise, then he probably has reason to complain.

There is a big difference between challenging the validity or sanctity of the vote and whining about a biased media.

I think he has good reason to give the GOP insiders a severe thrashing if he loses.

The issue with Gore was valid in the first challenge. Things were close, there were some questions, yeah go ahead and do a recount. I didn't have a problem with that. But when it gets to the point of trying to change the outcome by changing the rules, recounting and playing Carnac until getting the desired count, that was over the top. And I will fault Trump if he plays those kinds of games.
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post #55 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 09:30 PM
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Re: Who will win?

I'm not sure. It seems to be up for grabs with a week to go. Who will be better or worse? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fquxSlBpiaE

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post #56 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 12:08 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by rockon View Post
He was not only cheated, but was set up to fail by the Democratic party. They wanted a safe token running mate but were not prepared when he gained serious support and threatened her nomination.

While I would not vote for Sanders (he is a little to socialist for me) I have respect for him, he seems honest and is passionate for what he believes in, a good character trait.

Not like the two clowns we have now.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #57 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 01:55 AM
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Re: Who will win?

Bernie was to socialist for you??? Are you serious? He is a Democratic Socialist!! The same as FDR and JFK!!! So the New Deal is to socialist for you. You hate welfare, the WPA, the GI bill, and the Glass-Steagall act. You also hate medicare, that was passed by LBJ after JFK was killed.

Bernie wanted to extend the policies and legacies of these great leaders. Single payer health care, $15.00 minimum wage, free college tuition to public schools. These are very easily attainable goals for this country. But the conversation was drowned out by the special interests and military hawks of this country.
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post #58 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 02:05 AM
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Re: Who will win?

If your still not sure Bernie was the best choice that was passed over, then listen to a former Titan of Wall Street. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJj2kSbwpqE
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post #59 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 08:44 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by 10th Engineer Harrison View Post
The hell?



No, Trumpski is unfit to be human, let alone lead. I'm voting for Hillary because she beat Bernie in the primaries.



No, I'll come right out and say it. She's fit to lead.



So demonstrate it. That describes Trump not Clinton.



What great things has Trump accomplished?



What things has she done that did end in disaster or scandal? What things has Trump done, period?
The conflating of political experience as coaching experience is quite alarming I think. The idea that only the Experts are fit to lead completely gives up on republicanism, and rather says that you aren't fit to govern yourselves, but that the Technocrats are your rightful masters. People making such arguments are either completely unaware of the arguments they make, or they absolutely hate the idea of a republic and self-rule.[/quote]

I would attribute much of what you said to paranoia. This country is of, for, and by the people. YOU are the government. So instead of trying to tear it apart, we should be trying to fix it. Experts in what? Big corporations, and especially billionaires, are dictatorships, not democracies or republics. What makes a lousy businessman/conman qualified to lead a democratic republic?



All Trump's promises are empty. What makes people think he'll follow through on any of them? I really want to know.



Grains of truth, but mostly exaggeration.



I don't disagree about those two, who are essentially irrelevant to this election (except to the extent they siphon support from the major party candidates).

-10th Engineer Harrison[/QUOTE]

I like that you can't name a single thing you like about her, but rather simply wish to turn the questions back. I'll be glad to discuss Trump's pros and cons when you start to debate honestly, and drop the disingenuous sophistry.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #60 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 08:47 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by Palodyne View Post
Bernie was to socialist for you??? Are you serious? He is a Democratic Socialist!! The same as FDR and JFK!!! So the New Deal is to socialist for you. You hate welfare, the WPA, the GI bill, and the Glass-Steagall act. You also hate medicare, that was passed by LBJ after JFK was killed.

Bernie wanted to extend the policies and legacies of these great leaders. Single payer health care, $15.00 minimum wage, free college tuition to public schools. These are very easily attainable goals for this country. But the conversation was drowned out by the special interests and military hawks of this country.
Tell me Palodyne, what is the effective difference between Socialism, and Democratic Socialism?

Democratic Socialism is the same as Socialism. Heck, look at the Democratic Socialist website. They're straightforward about it.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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