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post #61 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 08:57 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by john117 View Post
Comrade Kivlor,

Kleptocracy bothers you, but corporatocracy doesn't?

Why are we all of a sudden worrying about Bill's indiscretions but not about his worst decision ever, to let the Commodities Modernization Act thru? Or repealing Glass Steagalt?
Oh, it bothers me deeply. Trump wasn't my candidate. I think the only hope he may represent is that he's not necessarily beholden to any special interest groups. We may see some sort of change. And the system needs a shakeup.

I'm with you on the indiscretions being small potatoes compared to the real damage the Democratic Party has done to our country through the CMA, through unbridled immigration aimed at demographically shifting the country because they cannot win on arguments.
And it's nothing compared to the massive damage to liberty that will be made under Hillary. The Clintons are the KKKorporate candidates. They are a beautiful fusion of corporatism and kleptocracy. I'm not going to claim Trump is the great Libertarian candidate. Nor that he's Conservative. Nor that he's Alt-Right. Trump is a Populist, and in many ways that scares me.

I'm pro free market, which necessarily pits me against a lot of the corporate interests out there. Look at all of the massive, unreadable "regulatory" bills we've seen passed in the last 30 years. Then look at who supported them: almost always the major players in the industry about to be "regulated" because it would limit their competition and increase market share. They're the enemies of the Republic every bit as much as the politicians who are pushing these terrible policies.

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post #62 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 09:05 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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don't care about any of this. She has more experience as a politician. Case closed for me.
So you voted for McCain 8 years ago over Obama because he was far more experienced as a politician?

Doubtful.

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” - Maya Angelou
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post #63 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 09:10 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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No it is not. There's not POTUS SAT whereby we discover the ability of a proposed politician to fill the role. There's no Kobayashi Maru simulator for the job.



Me too. What makes you think I'm not informed on Hillary vs. Trump and you, by comparison, are so much more knowledgeable? Simply because I disagree with you?



I never claimed that there was any objective standard of correctness. Of course it's subjective. Always has been, always will be. There's nothing objectively wrong with Trump. There's nothing objectively wrong with Hillary. Pick the one who will do the job, in your opinion, most to your liking.



I don't like Trump because he personifies a whole bunch of things that I personally find loathsome. Much more so than Hillary. And no, there's not a damned thing objective about it. It's what I find compelling and important. And I get to decide, for myself, what those things are.

I thought I was having a reasonable discussion, but thanks for the reminder of why you were in my kill file for so long.
I like that your at least consistent Cletus. By giving up any semblance of objectivity, we move this to a debate of tastes, and if that is the case, then de gustibus non disputandum est.

The issues that we are interested / concerned with as individuals are subjective inasmuch as we tier them to their own relevancy to our lives / views. But from there we can have objective discussions about many of those issues.

Further, there are limits on what the the power and role of POTUS is, which means often people who have a misunderstanding of that position may be heavily weighting issues that are irrelevant to the position. Take abortion--something the right and left like to use as a litmus test--this is something outside of the purview of the POTUS, and it would be irresponsible to make it a part of your litmus test for the job. Contrast with diplomacy, negotiation and military command: all things that fall within the purview of the POTUS, and so things that we ought to be paying attention to.

One of my deeper concerns is that many on the Right and Left have come to see the POTUS as a cure all, when the position is intended to be a mere figurehead. But I guess I just find the idea of having a Dictator (in the Roman sense, not modern parlance) concerning.

What I find unreasonable is the pushing of Relativism from a man who is constantly harping about science and the policies we should take based on it. Isn't that inherently calling politics objective? Or is it only objective when you want it to be?
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post #64 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 09:12 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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So you voted for McCain 8 years ago over Obama because he was far more experienced as a politician?

Doubtful.
Don't logic bro. It confuses the plebeians.
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post #65 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 09:52 AM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
One of my deeper concerns is that many on the Right and Left have come to see the POTUS as a cure all, when the position is intended to be a mere figurehead. But I guess I just find the idea of having a Dictator (in the Roman sense, not modern parlance) concerning.
I have long been on record as being one of those who thinks the power of the President is grossly overstated by the average American. We blame the man in office for the economic travails and successes of the country when he in fact has very little direct influence over the affair. We act as if campaign promises to "do this" or "legislate that" have some real meaning beyond the authority to wield the veto pen which in itself is only as strong as Congress allows it to be.

The one place where the POTUS truly does wield some authority worth considering is over the armed forces.

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What I find unreasonable is the pushing of Relativism from a man who is constantly harping about science and the policies we should take based on it. Isn't that inherently calling politics objective? Or is it only objective when you want it to be?
Facing reality is never unreasonable.

You can only be objective when you have the means to be objective. Can you really show me peer reviewed unbiased data indicating with any degree of confidence at all which of these two candidates will make the better CinC? No such tests exist. We don't even agree as a society on the definition of what "better" means assuming we had even the remotest sense of how to measure it. Hell, even after the fact, we often can't agree on whether a given president was good or bad with his entire record on display. How are we to decide before they even take the oath?

I'm not advocating for the candidate I would "like to have a beer with". It is more important than a beauty contest. But until we have some means of answering the question of who is better with real data, then it will always default to a question of which one better fits my internal model of the leader of what is still the most powerful nation on earth. That your model and selection criteria lead you to a different choice doesn't surprise nor bother me. It doesn't make you irrational. It doesn't make you ill informed. The system has too many variables. Too many degrees of freedom. Too few constraints to have an answer that to which we can unambiguously say yay or nay. It is demonstrably hopelessly subjective.

Nonetheless, in the never ending search for better objectivity, I will always have a visceral dislike for a candidate who cannot get his or her facts straight, or who appears at least to not be the least concerned with what is verifiably true. Call it objectivity once removed. The inability to measure objectively a candidate's fitness for the office doesn't imply that anything goes. But of course, that's really just a statement of my subjective prejudice for accuracy. It might be that a serial liar is perfectly suited to the job. It would seem we will get a chance either way to discover the answer to that question next week.
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post #66 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 01:09 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Tell me Palodyne, what is the effective difference between Socialism, and Democratic Socialism?

Democratic Socialism is the same as Socialism. Heck, look at the Democratic Socialist website. They're straightforward about it.
Socialism isn't a bad thing when it is democratically moderated. This country has socialism laced all through it. Social security, medicare, Medicaid, post office, fire departments, police, army, libraries, the interstate highways, state and national parks, food stamps, the WIC program for kids, and many others.

Everyone gets a vote to decide what will be socialized and then we all pay taxes to fund these things. That is democratic socialism. We have had it since the beginning of this country.
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post #67 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 01:28 PM
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Re: Who will win?

Opposing legal immigration and claiming free market lover is inconsistent. Every year the USA admits one million people almost, legally. That's a Louisville. Or Columbus. Or Kansas City. Legally. Every year. Few of them are professional types like I was... it's not illegal immigration that's the problem dude.. it's hundreds of thousands of unskilled RELATIVES

Saint Reagan started the asylum and refugee games, then the first wave of amnesty... Then Bush opened the floodgates with h1b...

Pro free market and against corporatism? Good one.

Against regulations too?

You live in a fantasy land I am afraid, expecting money to self regulate...
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post #68 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 01:34 PM
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Re: Who will win?

Who cares about the election? GO TRIBE!

At the center of every moMEnt of my life is ME!
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post #69 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 01:40 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Who cares about the election? GO TRIBE!
I first voted in 1980, and this is by far the most interesting presidential election ever. Of course, it'd be more fun if it wasn't also the most terrifying election ever.

I don't even blame Comey for the way Clinton is slipping. I think that was all the slight nudge it took for a lot of struggling voters to jump ship. I know how they feel. I'm still hoping Clinton wins but damn. As thoroughly awful as Trump is, I should be feeling a lot more comfortable about my vote.
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post #70 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 01:42 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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I'm with you on the indiscretions being small potatoes compared to the real damage the Democratic Party has done to our country through the CMA, through unbridled immigration aimed at demographically shifting the country because they cannot win on arguments.
And it's nothing compared to the massive damage to liberty that will be made under Hillary. The Clintons are the KKKorporate candidates. They are a beautiful fusion of corporatism and kleptocracy. I'm not going to claim Trump is the great Libertarian candidate. Nor that he's Conservative. Nor that he's Alt-Right. Trump is a Populist, and in many ways that scares me.
It was Trump that received the endorsements of both David Duke and the KKK. High praise indeed. He may have denounced it but birds of a feather ..

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
I'm pro free market, which necessarily pits me against a lot of the corporate interests out there. Look at all of the massive, unreadable "regulatory" bills we've seen passed in the last 30 years. Then look at who supported them: almost always the major players in the industry about to be "regulated" because it would limit their competition and increase market share. They're the enemies of the Republic every bit as much as the politicians who are pushing these terrible policies.
The banking industry showed us very clearly what happens when regulations are removed, not only the initial housing and economic crash but Wells Fargo just reiterated that the desire for short term profits proves that they didn't learn a thing from tanking the economy.

Freedom only works when it's paired with responsibility, without that it's just anarchy and the banks have shown total disregard for the consequences of their actions. They need regulating, not that either candidate is going to do that.

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post #71 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 02:10 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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The banking industry showed us very clearly what happens when regulations are removed, not only the initial housing and economic crash but Wells Fargo just reiterated that the desire for short term profits proves that they didn't learn a thing from tanking the economy.

Freedom only works when it's paired with responsibility, without that it's just anarchy and the banks have shown total disregard for the consequences of their actions. They need regulating, not that either candidate is going to do that.
The bolded is one of the big problems we have. Regulations were NOT removed. They were changed to enable TBTF banks to get bigger. I really wish people would stop saying regulations were removed. They are seldom removed, they are simply changed to enable the powers that be gain more power under the guise of "security"

For some reason, many in this country mistake greed for profit.

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post #72 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 02:19 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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I believe Trump would win quite handily... if the votes were counted honestly, which of course they won't be. So he will need a big margin to overcome the massive voter fraud that the Ds are planning.
You must be pretty important to have access to all of your secret information.
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post #73 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 02:25 PM
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Re: Who will win?

*This is only my prediction of who will win. Most data and polls are showing that Hillary has the most clear path to 270. Polls would not risk their credibility by trying to be misleading. I interned at GALLOP. Poll organizations really, really care about being correct.
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post #74 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 02:48 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by BetrayedDad View Post
So you voted for McCain 8 years ago over Obama because he was far more experienced as a politician?

Doubtful.
McCain had much more political experience that Obama, but Obama had much more political experience eight years ago (US senator) than Trump now has.
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post #75 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 04:23 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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McCain had much more political experience than Obama, but Obama had much more political experience eight years ago (US senator) than Trump now has.
Yeah... half of his first term in the US senate. So what, three whole years? Give me a break dude.

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” - Maya Angelou
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