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post #91 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 12:51 PM
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Re: Who will win?

I believe Trump will win. I hope not, but I believe his base of CHANGE people is bigger than polls show. I also think that many minority voters just simply are not as into it as they were in the last two elections.


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post #92 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 01:13 PM
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Re: Who will win?

I've already voted. I voted for Hillary Clinton because she is the Democratic candidate.


If Donald Trump wins, I hope he delegates a lot of the responsibilities to qualified people. I think he would do that. I think he'll find it boring to actually be the President.

I don't think he'll win though.
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post #93 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 04:11 PM
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Re: Who will win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
You're one of those confused or misled people who don't see the difference between public service jobs and redistribution of wealth.

The police are paid by tax dollars. Police officers are doing work for which they are paid wages. Whether they are employees of the government or they are employees of a private corporation contracted by the government, they are nevertheless workers who are earning a paycheck. Same with military, fire fighters, librarians, park rangers, and road construction workers. All of those people are working for a paycheck. All of the goods and services paid for out of tax dollars are intended to provide services to the population at large.

Now let's contrast that to Medicaid or food stamps. Those programs are also paid for by tax dollars. The $$ is given directly to individuals as wealth redistribution. My tax $ is given to some other person for their own personal enrichment. No park visitor, crime victim, vehicle operator, or homeowner is receiving any service or product in return. This is not a paycheck for work done.

Whether or not we as a society at large want to be generous to help others is a completely different issue.

It may be true that some people get more benefit than others from these tax supported services. If you don't have a vehicle, you only get indirect benefit from the roads. If you don't visit a National Park, you've paid for something you don't use. Some of these services are insurance-ish, such as fire departments. You pay to have the emergency service there if you need it. Same with the police, though they provide a generalized benefit to the community even if you never need them to respond to your home. But that doesn't make these socialistic programs. No wealth is taken from one person for the sole direct benefit of others. Every person has the right and opportunity to go to the park, to call the fire department, to check a book out of the library.

When Joe uses food stamps to buy his bread, he is taking my earned cash and using it to put food into his mouth. That is socialism.

The Constitution is not a living document, it is a legal document with specific meanings. It means what it says, nothing more and nothing less. It is a legal contract no different than your mortgage contract or your employment contract. It is not subject to change just because you want it to mean something else. With an official, lawful amendment, yes you can change the Constitution just as you can change the terms of your mortgage and employment.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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post #94 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 04:36 PM
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Re: Who will win?

I will vote for neither Clinton nor Trump. Wasted vote then eh? Funny I see those two as wasted votes. I would rather write-in the dep't. head of poli-sci at my university.

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post #95 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 06:31 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by Chuck71 View Post
I will vote for neither Clinton nor Trump. Wasted vote then eh? Funny I see those two as wasted votes. I would rather write-in the dep't. head of poli-sci at my university.
I always love it when some nimrod makes the argument that you are "wasting" your vote if you don't vote for their guy. IMO, a candidate should have to have an absolute majority of the eligible voters, not just the votes cast. If that were the case, we would see both of our major parties modulating their platforms to gain that majority instead of catering to the extremes within their parties and hoping to pick off a slim majority of the undecided to win an election.
And spare me the "if you don't vote you can't b!tch" argument. Most people who don't vote simple realize that it doesn't matter who wins, their lives will continue to suck. Real wages in this country have steadily decreased for over 50 years. That would include every sort of permutation of division of power between the two major parties. In case anyone is paying attention, about the only time during that period that things even marginally improved for the middle class of this country came just after Ross Perot gained 17% of the popular votes. The two major parties realized they had better get it together or they would lose power.

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post #96 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 10:05 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by Chuck71 View Post
I will vote for neither Clinton nor Trump. Wasted vote then eh? Funny I see those two as wasted votes. I would rather write-in the dep't. head of poli-sci at my university.
I thought you were writing me in, I've been practicing my victory speech

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post #97 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 10:21 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by katies View Post
don't care about any of this. She has more experience as a politician. Case closed for me.
Not even if she is a serial liar and a crook? What good is her "experience" if she has failed over and over again? Her experience didn't help her deal with a small situation like Benghazi, or the Russia Reset Button, or the setup of the private email server, or the erasing of the tens of thousands of email with national security info. A person could be on a post for decades, but if they have repeatedly revealed their incompetence and corruption, what good would that experience serve them at a higher post?
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post #98 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-05-2016, 12:17 AM
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Re: Who will win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
You're one of those confused or misled people who don't see the difference between public service jobs and redistribution of wealth.

The police are paid by tax dollars. Police officers are doing work for which they are paid wages. Whether they are employees of the government or they are employees of a private corporation contracted by the government, they are nevertheless workers who are earning a paycheck. Same with military, fire fighters, librarians, park rangers, and road construction workers. All of those people are working for a paycheck. All of the goods and services paid for out of tax dollars are intended to provide services to the population at large.

Now let's contrast that to Medicaid or food stamps. Those programs are also paid for by tax dollars. The $$ is given directly to individuals as wealth redistribution. My tax $ is given to some other person for their own personal enrichment. No park visitor, crime victim, vehicle operator, or homeowner is receiving any service or product in return. This is not a paycheck for work done.

Whether or not we as a society at large want to be generous to help others is a completely different issue.

It may be true that some people get more benefit than others from these tax supported services. If you don't have a vehicle, you only get indirect benefit from the roads. If you don't visit a National Park, you've paid for something you don't use. Some of these services are insurance-ish, such as fire departments. You pay to have the emergency service there if you need it. Same with the police, though they provide a generalized benefit to the community even if you never need them to respond to your home. But that doesn't make these socialistic programs. No wealth is taken from one person for the sole direct benefit of others. Every person has the right and opportunity to go to the park, to call the fire department, to check a book out of the library.

When Joe uses food stamps to buy his bread, he is taking my earned cash and using it to put food into his mouth. That is socialism.

The Constitution is not a living document, it is a legal document with specific meanings. It means what it says, nothing more and nothing less. It is a legal contract no different than your mortgage contract or your employment contract. It is not subject to change just because you want it to mean something else. With an official, lawful amendment, yes you can change the Constitution just as you can change the terms of your mortgage and employment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palodyne View Post
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
While the term "socialism" is so filled with prejudged reaction that it distracts from the conversation, the distinction between the categories of goods/services that Thor alludes to has merit.

Economists differentiate between "Rivalrous" and "Non-Rivalrous" goods, as well as "Excludable" and "Non-Excludable". Rivalrous means only one person can use it (like a Food Stamp Coupon) and using it leaves less for others, while non-Rivalrous means many people can benefit without degrading/preventing use by others (like a road, or a dam). Excludability means access can be controlled (like a Cable TV subscription), non-excludability means access cannot be controlled (like tuning into a broadcast TV station).

There is quite a difference between a government providing Non-Rivalrous/Non-Excludable goods, such as police protection, roads, parks, or national defense that does not leave less for others if you use it, as opposed to Rivalrous, Excludable goods (such as Food Stamps, Welfare, etc. which are open only to those who qualify, and each use leaves less in the budget for others). This is basic economic theory, not Thor's own distinction.

You might think it's a good thing to provide more welfare, food stamps, handouts, etc., and that's fine to have that position, but they are very different items than roads, dams, lighthouses and national defense. And Thor's desire to put limits on Rivalrous, Excludable handouts is perfectly legitimate, as the differentiation between the two types is not artificial at all.

(Wikipedia is your friend in further learning on this topic, if you so desire.)
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post #99 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-05-2016, 10:27 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
I have long been on record as being one of those who thinks the power of the President is grossly overstated by the average American. We blame the man in office for the economic travails and successes of the country when he in fact has very little direct influence over the affair. We act as if campaign promises to "do this" or "legislate that" have some real meaning beyond the authority to wield the veto pen which in itself is only as strong as Congress allows it to be.

The one place where the POTUS truly does wield some authority worth considering is over the armed forces.
I have to agree. Candidates make promises and act like all they have to do is walk in the Oval Office for the first time and make a phone call and it's all done. It's just not that easy.

Presidents talk about "creating jobs" as if they've opened up a lot of new companies and are hiring people by the millions, or as they have personally done something toward entrepreneurs and business owners in the country that created millions of jobs that otherwise wouldn't have been with any other president.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TX-SC View Post
I believe Trump will win. I hope not, but I believe his base of CHANGE people is bigger than polls show. I also think that many minority voters just simply are not as into it as they were in the last two elections.
I agree. I don't put much stock in polls. I believe there are a lot of people who will vote for Trump that aren't publicizing it.

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post #100 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-05-2016, 11:59 AM
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Re: Who will win?

Of course, if Hillary Clinton wins---I *do* think that former President Bill Clinton will have substantial influence; almost like a third term????

Will it corrode their marriage? Bill Clinton's health seems kind of frail, so it's hard to imagine him up to anymore sexual hijinks, or anything like that.

But I wonder if they will fight over policies and issues. I'm just thinking out loud. After all, this dynamic has never taken place before in the White House.

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post #101 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-05-2016, 02:10 PM
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Re: Who will win?

As in 2008, 2016 was a perfect time to have a strong third party form. Until then... we have, what we have. Bloomberg has his chance. He feared he would not win but would pull enough Dem voters to allow GOP a win. The campaigning, debates... going back to the primaries, were like a teenage couple having it out after a break up.

In the end, it doesn't matter. "Voting is an illusion of choice," Carlin. The DC political machine will march on no matter who wins. Same goes for Congressional seats. They are becoming figureheads, like in England and the royal family.

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post #102 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-05-2016, 02:46 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by becareful2 View Post
Not even if she is a serial liar and a crook? What good is her "experience" if she has failed over and over again? Her experience didn't help her deal with a small situation like Benghazi, or the Russia Reset Button, or the setup of the private email server, or the erasing of the tens of thousands of email with national security info. A person could be on a post for decades, but if they have repeatedly revealed their incompetence and corruption, what good would that experience serve them at a higher post?
I don't consider her a crook or a liar. I consider the other candidate a poor reflection of humanity.
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post #103 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-05-2016, 02:47 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Freedom only works when it's paired with responsibility, without that it's just anarchy and the banks have shown total disregard for the consequences of their actions. They need regulating, not that either candidate is going to do that.
Actually freedom less responsibility is not anarchy, instead it is greed. That is one of the other problems we have in the US today, many people, including many "conservatives" mistake greed for legitimate profit, which should come about as a result of a mutually beneficial exchange of goods and services. In the absence of any real competition in most major industries in this country (and the world) often most exchanges are not necessarity mutually beneficial.

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post #104 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-05-2016, 02:48 PM
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Re: Who will win?

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Originally Posted by notmyrealname4 View Post
Of course, if Hillary Clinton wins---I *do* think that former President Bill Clinton will have substantial influence; almost like a third term????

Will it corrode their marriage? Bill Clinton's health seems kind of frail, so it's hard to imagine him up to anymore sexual hijinks, or anything like that.

But I wonder if they will fight over policies and issues. I'm just thinking out loud. After all, this dynamic has never taken place before in the White House.
I saw him speak about a month ago in person. He looked healthier than he appears on TV. He spoke about policy for over an hour. Policy after policy. Melania speaks about well whatever Michelle Obama says, only in a foreign accent with a kick a$$ outfit on.
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post #105 of 179 (permalink) Old 11-05-2016, 02:57 PM
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Re: Who will win?

Random thought......... Trump wins and gets a D. Wonder how that would play out.... Sure bet it would be on PPV. Can see it now..... America's First Mistress. Maybe have a g/f or new wife like Carla Bruni. Talk about tabloids LOL

A-Every single thing that has ever happened in your life is preparing you for a moment that is yet to come.
B-We know what we are, but know not what we may be
C-Never make the person in your present pay for the sins committed by people from your past
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