Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance... - Page 2 - Talk About Marriage
Politics and Religion This is the place to discuss politics, morality, religion, and anything controversial.

User Tag List

 422Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
post #16 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:36 PM
Member
 
meson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Where I pitch a tent
Posts: 1,363
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy400 View Post
That's probably reasonable (but, I've heard good defenses of carried interest as well).

But before I'd propose getting rid of it, I'd want to know why the rule exists in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipe...rton%27s_fence

Democrats had 8 years of the White House (including 2 years with a Democratic House and a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate) and didn't change this, so let the other team give it a go.
I explicitly stated why the rules exist. They exist for the thrust of Elegirl's example. The tax code for the most part is fair and progressive. The problem arises in trying to be fair for cases like farm averaging also allows other to take advantage of a special situation that does not fully apply to them. The tax code is complicated and there will always be these loopholes discovered.

The simple solution is to increase corporate taxes and personal taxes for the wealthy so that they will be less likely to get out of paying taxes they should pay.


I don't want to not live because of my fear of what could happen. - Laird Hamilton
Listen to your spouse!
Fog v. Love
meson is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:41 PM
Member
 
Yeswecan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,374
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
Talking with a friend yesterday.. she said something I now believe is the sorry truth..

I feel Republicans IN OFFICE / in the media put on a good front, basically USING side issues like abortion, embracing those who hold more "traditional values", all the 2nd amendment talk..... but ultimately their aim is ALL about Capitalism, free market and more benefits for the RICH, Corporations, more loopholes.. I am literally shocked someone like Trump didn't have to pay taxes.. I would have never entertained something like this.. it is so outrageous to me.. and his worth is ? and this is OK somehow.. defended ???
Trump used the tax laws instituted by the very people who came before him. Everyone uses the tax laws to their advantage. Who wouldn't? There is not much anyone could say if Trump is using the laws as it was designed. If he was up to something the IRS would be all over him.

“You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.”
― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road
Yeswecan is online now  
post #18 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
SimplyAmorous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 13,856
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattMatt View Post
But what about the use of programmes that help ensure that there are always people who are poor and needy?

"What do those poor people need? Jobs?"

"Hell, no! Why bother to arrange jobs for them? Food stamps were good enough for their grandparents and parents and they'll be good enough for them, too!"

It's a cycle of poverty with no way out for the victims. But the oppressors can feel good about themselves. After all, they aren't going to let them starve, right?
See this is where I can see where the republicans are coming from.. can I share with you something that bugs me.. we have a lot of kids.. I don't look down on myself for shopping for clothes at a consignment shop.. I buy food on sale, with coupons. I am very careful to conserve money.. I have to be ! I know people who get free health care, hundreds a month in food stamps ...I cant say I begrudge them... I'd never want to live where they live though .. housing projects and such.. that's enough to put a fire under my a** to work, 2 jobs if I/we had to..

I don't know the answers.. obviously I am one who would frown mightily on taking drugs, having babies with a variety of men, things that can entrap one into poverty..I am not even sure I feel bad for these people (just being honest!).. I feel they bring the BAD upon themselves.. this is where I THINK more like a conservative.

I do feel one should work to eat - that's a scripture by the way.. not that I am even religious anymore.. but then should I feel guilty for my husband supporting me, when I didn't work.. I don't know..

I don't have the answers to what can motivate people to live rightly.. but I've seen situations -involving health problems.. it would have been better to have nothing... living off the government - in order to be covered... it shouldn't be this way!!
SimplyAmorous is offline  
 
post #19 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:44 PM
Member
 
Yeswecan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,374
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post

I went to church yesterday, 1st time in a year or so...thought it'd be interesting to see what is said about Trump...I can't tell you how many times I rolled my eyes...thinking "Really!@#"... the Pastor was going on -how NOW WE HAVE "HOPE" AGAIN, hallelujah, euphoria rising in the pews... Trump is the answer to our prayers...he's being used by God like the heathen leader Cyrus ... had to come home & google this...many articles like these....
Well....the same was heard when Obama took office. Certainly many churches had the praise going on high. You can put that in the bank. Jeremiah Wright ring any bells?

“You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.”
― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road
Yeswecan is online now  
post #20 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:47 PM
Member
 
Yeswecan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,374
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
See this is where I can see where the republicans are coming from.. can I share with you something that bugs me.. we have a lot of kids.. I don't look down on myself for shopping for clothes at a consignment shop.. I buy food on sale, with coupons. I am very careful to conserve money.. I have to be ! I know people who get free health care, hundreds a month in food stamps ...I cant say I begrudge them... I'd never want to live where they live though .. housing projects and such.. that's enough to put a fire under my a** to work, 2 jobs if I/we had to..
And that my friend is what makes you a horse of a different color. Many stay within the system and look no further to improve their situation. I have family members who sit doing nothing and have not plans to do much more than work the systems as best they can.

“You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.”
― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road
Yeswecan is online now  
post #21 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:50 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,885
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

The top 1% or whatever get out of paying taxes and then people like my husband and I (that are small business owners) end up paying in the 39% tax bracket. It blows.
karole is online now  
post #22 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:52 PM
Forum Supporter
 
MarriedDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: ORYGUN
Posts: 1,850
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattMatt View Post
But what about the use of programmes that help ensure that there are always people who are poor and needy?

"What do those poor people need? Jobs?"

"Hell, no! Why bother to arrange jobs for them? Food stamps were good enough for their grandparents and parents and they'll be good enough for them, too!"

It's a cycle of poverty with no way out for the victims. But the oppressors can feel good about themselves. After all, they aren't going to let them starve, right?
This^^^^^

So true. What bothers me the most....how many ideas has humanity lost due to this? How many minds never achieved all they could have due to poor nutrition, poor education, loss of hope???

We all lose

Holes burn deep in your chest,
Raked by machine gun fire.
Screaming soul sent out to die,
Living mandatory suicide.
MarriedDude is offline  
post #23 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:55 PM
Forum Supporter
 
MarriedDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: ORYGUN
Posts: 1,850
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by karole View Post
The top 1% or whatever get out of paying taxes and then people like my husband and I (that are small business owners) end up paying in the 39% tax bracket. It blows.
Fire your accountant

Holes burn deep in your chest,
Raked by machine gun fire.
Screaming soul sent out to die,
Living mandatory suicide.
MarriedDude is offline  
post #24 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:57 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,544
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
Talking with a friend yesterday.. she said something I now believe is the sorry truth..

I feel Republicans IN OFFICE / in the media put on a good front, basically USING side issues like abortion, embracing those who hold more "traditional values", all the 2nd amendment talk..... but ultimately their aim is ALL about Capitalism, free market and more benefits for the RICH, Corporations, more loopholes.. I am literally shocked someone like Trump didn't have to pay taxes.. I would have never entertained something like this.. it is so outrageous to me.. and his worth is ? and this is OK somehow.. defended ???

Admittedly I do not follow Politics much ...they all seem snakes to me.. like many, a certain issue may hold more of an appeal to me over another, while obviously I am clueless to the REAL agenda at play...I believe my friend is right.

I went to church yesterday, 1st time in a year or so...thought it'd be interesting to see what is said about Trump...I can't tell you how many times I rolled my eyes...thinking "Really!@#"... the Pastor was going on -how NOW WE HAVE "HOPE" AGAIN, hallelujah, euphoria rising in the pews... Trump is the answer to our prayers...he's being used by God like the heathen leader Cyrus ... had to come home & google this...many articles like these....

Is Donald Trump a Modern-Day Cyrus? ? Charisma News .. then in the next breath he's saying something about us living honorably before God !

Have they lost their minds.... what I can't reconcile is how many Christians are turning a blind eye to obvious Greed.. defending those who perpetuate it..

Now this article I can get behind, reason is present and it's surely more Biblically sound - given these passages on Greed | Bibleinfo.com

Why Do Religious Republicans Stridently Defend Greed?



Does it really make any sense...

....

I agree, I don't see anything in Jesus' message about making a heaven on earth. He specifically said "go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation". Peter, James, John and Paul were not trying to turn Rome into a Christian state, or even worried about the Jewish nation which would have made sense from there point of view.

American Christianity is very much American Christianity.

However as a Christian I would say what someone pays in taxes should be the furthest thing from your mind. If you want to help the poor, help the poor. Join a church who helps the poor. You personally have no control over tax law so don't worry about it. "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." Christians need to be working much more on the micro of their daily lives and less on the macro of politics. If they would stop worrying about everyone else and only do what they should everything else would work out.

Last edited by sokillme; 11-14-2016 at 04:03 PM.
sokillme is online now  
post #25 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
SimplyAmorous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 13,856
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy400 View Post
What happened was that Trump apparently lost almost a billion dollars in one year.

Think of it this way.

A poker player lost $1 million dollars last year. This year he won $1 million.

Let's say he is in a 35% tax bracket.

Combining the two years, he didn't make any money at all.

Is it reasonable that he would pay $350,000 in taxes over the two years?

If that was the case, he'd be out $350,000 for the two years even though he didn't actually make any money at all.

Real Estate development is pretty much like poker. If you couldn't offset losses, I'm not sure anyone would do it.

This is one of those things that sounds bad but isn't.

(However, losing almost a billion dollars in one year doesn't say much about his business ability)

Edit: @SimplyAmorous, please read this and let me know what you think.
Here is what I think... Ok fine.. he was left off the hook.. why forever - if he turned a profit of a billion the following year (he probably did & then some many times over ) .. ya know what... the poor man or woman may have massive debt (to them that could be $10,000), let's say in health care costs (yeah I am pounding that - because I hate how some are screwed over by it)...


Does our tax law care or allow their bills to be exempt that year because they couldn't afford it.. of course not.. they'd still be on the hook even if it took them the next 30 years to pay..so these big business Tycoons.. I think they should have to pay it back once they hit the BIG windfall - as its always going to be coming for the "Trumps" of our time...

SimplyAmorous is offline  
post #26 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 04:01 PM
Member
 
meson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Where I pitch a tent
Posts: 1,363
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeswecan View Post
And that my friend is what makes you a horse of a different color. Many stay within the system and look no further to improve their situation. I have family members who sit doing nothing and have not plans to do much more than work the systems as best they can.
These people that are lazy and work the system are on both sides of the income ladder. I have relatives who do nothing but live on family money. They are a drain on society just as much because they are not contributing to the ecomomic growth of the country.

The fact that some people wether poor or not are lazy will not be altered by welfare policy. Also there are people who are not lazy who find themselves in bad situations that can use welfare for their family benefit to help get back on their feet. Let's not not help the truly needed by unfairly claiming all on welfare are lazy.

I don't want to not live because of my fear of what could happen. - Laird Hamilton
Listen to your spouse!
Fog v. Love
meson is offline  
post #27 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
SimplyAmorous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 13,856
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by meson View Post
Net operating losses applied to taxes is fair for a large number of cases especially small businesses like this example is tailored towards.

What is not fair is the ability of S Corporations, Trusts and Limited partnerships to take business losses and transfer them to someone with limited liability towards the enterprise. This allows reasonable losses to be magnified to shift towards canceling personal tax liability. It should really be restricted to the companies themselves and should not be transferable toward personal returns past a certain point. This is what is unfair.

I am not a farmer but some twenty five years ago I owned interest in a company which was categorized as farming for tax purposes. A farmer has the ability to average income over a certain number of years to smooth out the boom/ bust income from crops. This is fair. However my ownership and the vehicle that allowed it granted me a non-farmer the ability to income average my entire return for five years. This is not fair but it is a loophole in a rule trying to be fair over extended to others. It would have been fair to limit the income averaging to that portion of the investment but at the time the law was not specific.
Sure happy someone more intelligent over me answered this.. as I really DON'T understand all this .. at all.. I feel inadequate on this thread even..
SimplyAmorous is offline  
post #28 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 04:15 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,544
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

You seem to be down on Capitalism but I am not sure what you think would be better? Socialism in it's pure form has worked much worse, and normally takes the form of dictatorship, death and misery. Look there is always going to be winners and looser, but in general Capitalism has best method of lifting large groups of people out of poverty ever. If some people get obscenely rich because of it that is a price I am willing to pay.

I think another thing that is troubling by this kind of thinking is that it always seems to hing on the idea that Money makes you happy. Which it doesn't. Even if everyone was rich it wouldn't solve the worlds problems. Personally I would love the 1% to pay more taxes. 50% seems about right to me, but I care more about Capitalism and freedom then if Zuckerberg pays his fair share.
sokillme is online now  
post #29 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 04:23 PM
Member
 
Kivlor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Rural Midwest
Posts: 2,870
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
Talking with a friend yesterday.. she said something I now believe is the sorry truth..

I feel Republicans IN OFFICE / in the media put on a good front, basically USING side issues like abortion, embracing those who hold more "traditional values", all the 2nd amendment talk..... but ultimately their aim is ALL about Capitalism, free market and more benefits for the RICH, Corporations, more loopholes.. I am literally shocked someone like Trump didn't have to pay taxes.. I would have never entertained something like this.. it is so outrageous to me.. and his worth is ? and this is OK somehow.. defended ???

Admittedly I do not follow Politics much ...they all seem snakes to me.. like many, a certain issue may hold more of an appeal to me over another, while obviously I am clueless to the REAL agenda at play...I believe my friend is right.

I went to church yesterday, 1st time in a year or so...thought it'd be interesting to see what is said about Trump...I can't tell you how many times I rolled my eyes...thinking "Really!@#"... the Pastor was going on -how NOW WE HAVE "HOPE" AGAIN, hallelujah, euphoria rising in the pews... Trump is the answer to our prayers...he's being used by God like the heathen leader Cyrus ... had to come home & google this...many articles like these....

Is Donald Trump a Modern-Day Cyrus? ? Charisma News .. then in the next breath he's saying something about us living honorably before God !

Have they lost their minds.... what I can't reconcile is how many Christians are turning a blind eye to obvious Greed.. defending those who perpetuate it..

Now this article I can get behind, reason is present and it's surely more Biblically sound - given these passages on Greed | Bibleinfo.com

Why Do Religious Republicans Stridently Defend Greed?



Does it really make any sense...
SA, I feel for you. It’s a tough thing for a lot of people to realize that most politicians in either party are running for their own gain, and not fo any of their supposed altruistic policies they claim they’ll push.

Regarding taxes, I think it’s important to realize that what we’re talking about are income taxes, and if Trump (or any other wealthy person) has a very bad year (or series of bad years) they may not pay taxes at all because they lost money, and didn’t gain it, so just like the rest of us, they file their taxes based on how well (or not well they did). In the end, we don’t have “wealth” taxes, we have income taxes, so a person may have accumulated a ton of wealth, and not be paying much in taxes, if they didn’t have much income.

As to the whole “modern day Cyrus” or “now we can have hope again”, I think these people are grasping at straws. I would avoid anyone who thinks they know what God is doing right now. We can’t know His will, or His plan, short of a prophet being sent to tell us directly. And I doubt any of us knows a such a person.

As to a Christian defense of greed... well, that's probably best handled in a separate post, but we can really boil it down to the idea that it is better to teach a man to fish (or to be industrious / have a trade) than to give him a fish. Of course, interestingly, one might note that the Bible is very short on examples of Jesus teaching men to fish, but very long on examples of him giving them fish.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
Kivlor is online now  
post #30 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 04:24 PM
Moderator
 
EleGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 32,249
Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
Those figures absolutely reasonable!! .. heck such a person is paying more than TRUMP did ! and making hardly any profit at all.. doesn't seem worth it even... I guess if one X this by a million.. your profit would seem astounding to me though. Not like you are struggling in any form.

I DO feel small business owners should get breaks like that.. they NEED IT - for sure.. I feel terribly bad for them -when it comes to health insurance costs ! Most can't even get off the ground..
Ok, so now let’s look at my business, but now the dollar figures are huge.. in the millions+ and I’m going to add some capital expenditure.
Income
Sales of sales of services...$100 Million
Sale of widgets.................$500 Million
Total Income....................$600 Million

Expenses
Office rent.......................$ 20 Million
Fuel and auto usage..........$ 20 Million
Advertising Costs..............$ 20 Million
Cost to build widgets.........$ 40 Million
Factory to build Widgets… $ 1,000 Million <- meaning 1 billion
Total Expenses.....................$1.1 Billion

Net profit – 500 Million That’s a 500 Million loss

The tax code allows me to take the 500 million loss and spread it out over some period of years. The tax code recognizes that many businesses do not have 12-month business cycles. Often times a business will take years to start showing a profit. It’s calling making an investment.

This is what Trump did. He invested a large amount of money in year one into something and had a big loss for that year.

Did you know that the Clintons took the exact same type of tax deductions for about $600,000 one year? That way they could spread that loss over many years.

If this kind of tax relief was not allowed for business, few people would take the risk of starting a business. Or the other solution is to just raise your prices and charge enough for products to make up for not being able to get the tax relief. So that way consumers will cover the tax part of investments.

There is absolutely nothing morally or legally wrong with the tax deduction that Trump took. The only thing wrong was the way the Clinton camp played it to make it look like he did something wrong. And he’s right. He was smart to do what he did. The tax code is the way it is to encourage huge, at risk, investments like what he made.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
It's this crazy rampant Corporate Greed.. it's killing small businesses...

Where my husband works.. the top CEO's are running the company into the ground.. laying everyone off, train derailments are up, they flap their mouths about "safety" - another line of BS....while giving themselves 3 - 7 million in bonus's.. last he heard they are selling most of the stock.. he calls it another Enron -not that I even understand all that... I don't... something's in the wind... no care or concern for their workers while they line their golden pockets...

I just wish the law had "caps" on the Greed... it's never going to stop..
I agree with this. The company I just retired from is doing something similar. A lot of CEO’s run a company into the group to make profits look high. They get their bonus and then change jobs before the company the full effect of their corporate raiding is noticed. And because stock holders demand high dividends they look the other way… killing the cow by over milking it.

I agree that it’s stupid business. But it’s a private business and they can be as stupid as they want.

One way to fight this is to start your own business. Or the employees buy the business and run it as an employee run business.

The thing is that the Republican Party is not the only party that supports the corporate greed. The Democrats do exactly the same thing…all the while talk as though they are not. They are all owned by the big corporations… bought and paid for. Their reward is their power and their increased wealth. The average congress person increases their wealth by 14% a year. Now how do they do it on their salary?
EleGirl is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on Talk About Marriage, you must first register. Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Important! Your username will be visible to the public next to anything you post and could show up in search engines like Google. If you are concerned about anonymity, PLEASE choose a username that will not be recognizable to anyone you know.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Struggling with Reconciliation Sallysman21 The Men's Clubhouse 29 08-12-2016 09:45 AM
Struggling with Progression after all that's happened. liza.melani Coping with Infidelity 4 04-13-2016 08:48 PM
Newly married and struggling. Need advice! busybee1 General Relationship Discussion 11 02-04-2016 12:47 PM
I feel in my gut my Hub is having an affair with my so called BF sharplle General Relationship Discussion 114 01-11-2016 12:06 AM
Struggling with this decision gaby Considering Divorce or Separation 20 12-28-2015 09:44 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome