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post #31 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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I am always very curious why similar graphs for Entertainer to Worker or Sports Star to Worker pay ratios don;t make the rounds.

At least a CEO could potentially be worth their pay.

Ben and Jerry's tried to limit their CEO's pay.

They couldn't do it.

Why would someone accept less pay than others were willing to pay them? Would you? I wouldn't.
I would have less of an issue with these people if they used their money to better society.. shouldn't they be an example to us all.. IF they actually did increase jobs, give their workers worthy health benefits...bring them up as well.. instead of pocketing all the excess...so many are looking for every way possible to have "machines" replace the working man/ woman... or taking these companies over seas , using slave labor to save more money to line their golden pockets, loop-holing their way through life.... I have nothing but disdain for people like this..

And No... I wouldn't be this way.. not that I could ever prove it.. I'll never be a rich person.. I just know I would have more concern & want to share the success -with those behind the scenes working for me..

But we can't legislate decency, treating others as we would want to be treated / care for our employees, can we ?? .. no because of A** holes like Henry Ford.. Unions had to be started..and I know.. I know.. people take advantage here too -being lazy.. my husband is in a Union.. he sees it.. but he's not like that.. no matter what it is.... someone will take advantage.. Yes it IS a crying shame..

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post #32 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 04:29 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Here is what I think... Ok fine.. he was left off the hook.. why forever - if he turned a profit of a billion the following year (he probably did & then some many times over ) .. ya know what... the poor man or woman may have massive debt (to them that could be $10,000), let's say in health care costs (yeah I am pounding that - because I hate how some are screwed over by it)...


Does our tax law care or allow their bills to be exempt that year because they couldn't afford it.. of course not.. they'd still be on the hook even if it took them the next 30 years to pay..so these big business Tycoons.. I think they should have to pay it back once they hit the BIG windfall - as its always going to be coming for the "Trumps" of our time...
There is a big difference between personal bills and the cost of business.

Trump’s personal bills are also not deductible against business income.

A business is usually a separate entity by law. They are considered like fictional people.

The income and expenses for the business are related to each other because the business has to spend money in order to make money.
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post #33 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 04:50 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

The problem with the law is that it is the result of a compromise. Let's talk the food stamps. It came about because the representatives of the farmers wanted a farm bill. To gain enough votes, the representative of the farming states agreed to vote for food stamps legislation in exchange for votes from the representatives of populated states (where major cities are).

Many people view food stamps as bad, but it passed with many Republican votes. Like many Democrats voted for the crop insurance which is the most anti capitalistic piece of legislature in existence. Basically transferring the farm risk on the tax payer without farmers having skin in the game.

It is welfare all around.

What we need is fair representation. I am not pro-union, but I acknowledge that unions helped defend the little guy. Today, their power is dwindling. It needs to be replaced by other groups. I doubt the Republicans are among those groups.

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post #34 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 04:51 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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I would have less of an issue with these people if they used their money to better society.. shouldn't they be an example to us all.. IF they actually did increase jobs, give their workers worthy health benefits...bring them up as well.. instead of pocketing all the excess...
I have no problem with people having a lot of money. But I want them to spend it. Because when they spend it that money goes back into the economy.

They build a brand new house… it creates construction jobs. They buy fancy cars and pay too much for them; buy overly expensive designer purses… let them blow their money and let that money create jobs.

The thing is that we do not need to take the money/wealth away from those who have it. What we can do is to create new wealth. How do we do that? Well people create new businesses and thus new jobs. They and their employees take their income and invest in things, buy/build houses, and so forth.
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many are looking for every way possible to have "machines" replace the working man/ woman... or taking these companies over seas , using slave labor to save more money to line their golden pockets, loop-holing their way through life.... I have nothing but disdain for people like this..
If it gets to the point where machines replace most jobs and we have even larger numbers of unemployed, those with money are going to have to support the unemployed mases… or face revolt. Unhappy, unfed masses are a disaster for a society.
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And No... I wouldn't be this way.. not that I could ever prove it.. I'll never be a rich person.. I just know I would have more concern & want to share the success -with those behind the scenes working for me..
I think that we need to protect the rights of employees. Over the last 16 years or so the rights of individuals in the work force have been eroded. With jobs moving overseas, employers are taking away benefits, lowering pay, etc. and telling employees that they are just lucky to have a job… so shut up.
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But we can't legislate decency, treating others as we would want to be treated / care for our employees, can we ?? .. no because of A** holes like Henry Ford.. Unions had to be started..and I know.. I know.. people take advantage here too -being lazy.. my husband is in a Union.. he sees it.. but he's not like that.. no matter what it is.... someone will take advantage.. Yes it IS a crying shame..
There will always be this kind of strive between employers/employees and hard-workers and lazy-people.
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post #35 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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There is a big difference between personal bills and the cost of business.

Trump’s personal bills are also not deductible against business income.

A business is usually a separate entity by law. They are considered like fictional people.

The income and expenses for the business are related to each other because the business has to spend money in order to make money.
All reasonable and good.. it all needs separated, of course.... I just want to see a living wage for the lower income people... people who DO want to work, who are out there struggling to put food on the table.... not everyone is cut out for college ... not everyone is going to be financially successful (even if they do go!) -there simply isn't enough good jobs to go around for all the college grads... but we still should be able to make a living, own a home... have a kid or 2...

Just answer me this.. is the average American really OK with this ??

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post #36 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 05:09 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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All reasonable and good.. it all needs separated, of course.... I just want to see a living wage for the lower income people... people who DO want to work, who are out there struggling to put food on the table.... not everyone is cut out for college ... not everyone is going to be financially successful (even if they do go!) -there simply isn't enough good jobs to go around for all the college grads... but we still should be able to make a living, own a home... have a kid or 2...

Just answer me this.. is the average American really OK with this ??

I think that the average worker is not so much looking at what CEOs earn. Instead they are looking at what they earn. And many cannot even find jobs, still. Many found jobs but work only part time now or make a small percentage of what they used to earn.

Obama promised to work towards getting good jobs and helping this problem. He did nothing really for 8 years.

So now people decided to see if Trump will keep his promise to help with things like the infrastructure work, making trade fairer for the USA and bringing businesses and industries back to the USA.

The rich do not need use working folk to stand up for them. We need to be standing up for our own interests. And so far both parties have been on the side of the large corporations because they are bought and paid for.



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post #37 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 05:18 PM
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Cool Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Talking with a friend yesterday.. she said something I now believe is the sorry truth..

I feel Republicans IN OFFICE / in the media put on a good front, basically USING side issues like abortion, embracing those who hold more "traditional values", all the 2nd amendment talk..... but ultimately their aim is ALL about Capitalism, free market and more benefits for the RICH, Corporations, more loopholes.. I am literally shocked someone like Trump didn't have to pay taxes.. I would have never entertained something like this.. it is so outrageous to me.. and his worth is ? and this is OK somehow.. defended ???

Admittedly I do not follow Politics much ...they all seem snakes to me.. like many, a certain issue may hold more of an appeal to me over another, while obviously I am clueless to the REAL agenda at play...I believe my friend is right.

I went to church yesterday, 1st time in a year or so...thought it'd be interesting to see what is said about Trump...I can't tell you how many times I rolled my eyes...thinking "Really!@#"... the Pastor was going on -how NOW WE HAVE "HOPE" AGAIN, hallelujah, euphoria rising in the pews... Trump is the answer to our prayers...he's being used by God like the heathen leader Cyrus ... had to come home & google this...many articles like these....

Is Donald Trump a Modern-Day Cyrus? ? Charisma News .. then in the next breath he's saying something about us living honorably before God !

Have they lost their minds.... what I can't reconcile is how many Christians are turning a blind eye to obvious Greed.. defending those who perpetuate it..

Now this article I can get behind, reason is present and it's surely more Biblically sound - given these passages on Greed | Bibleinfo.com

Why Do Religious Republicans Stridently Defend Greed?



Does it really make any sense...

....
Truth be told, I
would certainly wager that "The Donald" hasn't really picked up a Bible in years, even if at all!

Like most ardent GOPers, his mantra is to just greatly wrap himself up in the cross, but strictly at campaign time! He would enter a house of worship only as a muchly needed campaign photo-op!

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post #38 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 05:26 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

If you want money returned to the economy, you give it to the poor. The marginal propensity to consume is much greater for the poor than the rich.
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post #39 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 05:27 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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[B][COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Truth be told, I
would certainly wager that "The Donald" hasn't really picked up a Bible in years, even if at all!
Yes he has. Why just this year, he quoted from Two Corinthians in front of an audience. I saw the tape.

Hell, I'm an atheist and even I cringed when I heard that one.
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post #40 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 05:33 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...



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post #41 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 05:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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I agree with this. The company I just retired from is doing something similar. A lot of CEO’s run a company into the group to make profits look high. They get their bonus and then change jobs before the company the full effect of their corporate raiding is noticed. And because stock holders demand high dividends they look the other way… killing the cow by over milking it.

I agree that it’s stupid business. But it’s a private business and they can be as stupid as they want.
So you at least can emphasize why I feel this way... this is the height of ugly greedy selfish business practices. ... utterly Shameful, disgraceful.... this is a moral issue to me.. but we can't legislate morality... we have to allow people the freedom to be the vilest they can.. that's american , after all..

I realize now all I can do is VOTE...

Quote:
One way to fight this is to start your own business. Or the employees buy the business and run it as an employee run business.
But Elegirl.. not everyone can just start their own business.. that's not realistic.. this is where I sometimes see a great divide between the upper & lower classes.. you may have achieved it and been successful, you are a very intelligent woman.... but so many would only destruct their lives, enter into financial ruin to go down that road...some can't even manage a household.. or their kids, let alone a business..

I'm not trying to be down on myself in this way.. just imagining saying this to some of the people I know.. that's a pipe dream... Could I pull it off.. if I had enough passion & drive. probably.. I'm not hurting enough to venture there.. I'd opt to go back to where I worked.. in Direct care, for the assume health benefits (sucky job, great benefits !) working overtime to keep what I have.. if things got tight.. hoping that would sustain us..

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The thing is that the Republican Party is not the only party that supports the corporate greed. The Democrats do exactly the same thing…all the while talk as though they are not. They are all owned by the big corporations… bought and paid for. Their reward is their power and their increased wealth. The average congress person increases their wealth by 14% a year. Now how do they do it on their salary?
No doubt this is the truth .. I think I recall where Trump corrected Hilary in a debate... how he had HER & Bill bought ... or something like that.. she had no response ... what a racket.
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post #42 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 05:46 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Go to the agm of any big company and watch what happens.The first thing up for discussion is the directors compensation.If there are a lot of small shareholders then you will nearly always have some objections.
They may as well stay at home.
The large investment trusts,insurance companies,banks,fund managers etc will own most of the shares and the last thing they want is any unrest in the boardroom which might make it to the financial journals,so after the objections the vote will be taken and everything will go on as normal.The share price has to be protected at all costs.
The math used at the start of the thread by EleGirl while being very simplistic also proves an interesting point.If everyone used this formula there would be no need for accountants or tax lawyers.
But who would spend years and millions of dollars trying to develop new drugs or new anything.A lot of billionaires spent years trying to develop ways of doing things but they used tax breaks as funding and they get slaughtered for it.
I'm not taking any particular side here but it's not always as simple as people think.
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post #43 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 05:51 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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The top 1% or whatever get out of paying taxes and then people like my husband and I (that are small business owners) end up paying in the 39% tax bracket. It blows.
See.. stuff like this us unbelievable to me @karole.. why is this allowed to be....this destroys the middle class , doesn't it.. you probably could add so much to this discussion -with your living situation in comparison to the elite rich ....

I have a friend who owns a Plumbing business.. her & her husband, also they rent houses... I can assure you.. they are not rich people.. drive average vehicles.. they live "good enough" I suppose.. .she probably knows a lot about this and has her views.. maybe our next luncheon.. I'll bring this up and get an earful... she did give me heck for not voting.. even though she , too, hated them both, and still didn't know who she was voting for...
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post #44 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 05:54 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Talking with a friend yesterday.. she said something I now believe is the sorry truth..

I feel Republicans IN OFFICE / in the media put on a good front, basically USING side issues like abortion, embracing those who hold more "traditional values", all the 2nd amendment talk..... but ultimately their aim is ALL about Capitalism, free market and more benefits for the RICH, Corporations, more loopholes.. I am literally shocked someone like Trump didn't have to pay taxes.. I would have never entertained something like this.. it is so outrageous to me.. and his worth is ? and this is OK somehow.. defended ???

Admittedly I do not follow Politics much ...they all seem snakes to me.. like many, a certain issue may hold more of an appeal to me over another, while obviously I am clueless to the REAL agenda at play...I believe my friend is right.

I went to church yesterday, 1st time in a year or so...thought it'd be interesting to see what is said about Trump...I can't tell you how many times I rolled my eyes...thinking "Really!@#"... the Pastor was going on -how NOW WE HAVE "HOPE" AGAIN, hallelujah, euphoria rising in the pews... Trump is the answer to our prayers...he's being used by God like the heathen leader Cyrus ... had to come home & google this...many articles like these....

Is Donald Trump a Modern-Day Cyrus? ? Charisma News .. then in the next breath he's saying something about us living honorably before God !

Have they lost their minds.... what I can't reconcile is how many Christians are turning a blind eye to obvious Greed.. defending those who perpetuate it..

Now this article I can get behind, reason is present and it's surely more Biblically sound - given these passages on Greed | Bibleinfo.com

Why Do Religious Republicans Stridently Defend Greed?



Does it really make any sense...

....
Calls to mind Matthew 24:11 "and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people" maybe that is what is going on?
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post #45 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Calls to mind Matthew 24:11 "and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people" maybe that is what is going on?
Yes.. my observation- in light of scripture (from my Deistic point of view, that is).... it baffles me how many continue to defend the obvious.. it's like common sense have been thrown out the window.
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