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post #61 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 09:29 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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I see your empathy for the low income workers who can't afford health insurance, SA. ACA was written by the lobbyists and special interest groups. It is over 25K pages and as far as I know, no one has read it. The Dems rammed it through and Obama broke his promise to allow for adequate vetting time. Like Pelosi said, they had to pass it to know what's in it. My sister bought into it and now she has a hard time finding a service provider who would accept ACA, and she lives in a major city.
Yes.. it is a disaster.. I shriek to think my husband may loose his job over these "Enron" CEO's... then deal with Obama Care.. Please dear God.. No!!.... I will happily wipe butts to avoid that, I left in good standing.. they'll take me back in a heartbeat.. so yeah.. back to Direct care, awesome plan they have - (Teamsters Union)...

We have near directed our lives around Health care plans, we married when he threatened to quit his job -over health care.. they gave him a plan for our family... then he stayed at that job for 18 years because although he could find higher pay.. without the health plan, it wasn't worth it..

Our oldest is loosing his job in 45 days.. the RTF Facility he works is closing.. what am I harping on.. he has to find another with a decent health care plan.. he saved $17,000 in 12 months (frugal boy that one!) making $12.50 an hour, lots of overtime..I don't want to see that go up in smoke if , heaven forbid, he had an emergency crisis in between jobs/ coverage.. I realize the chances are very slim.. but still .. he'd be considered rich with all that in the bank, it would exhaust every dime he worked for..

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post #62 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 09:33 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

How old is your son?
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post #63 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 09:38 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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How old is your son?
he's 26.. he's the one with the worthless Psychology degree...and no, he's not going back to college for a Masters .... he's stubborn like that..
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post #64 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 10:14 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Yes.. it is a disaster.. I shriek to think my husband may loose his job over these "Enron" CEO's... then deal with Obama Care.. Please dear God.. No!!.... I will happily wipe butts to avoid that, I left in good standing.. they'll take me back in a heartbeat.. so yeah.. back to Direct care, awesome plan they have - (Teamsters Union)...

We have near directed our lives around Health care plans, we married when he threatened to quit his job -over health care.. they gave him a plan for our family... then he stayed at that job for 18 years because although he could find higher pay.. without the health plan, it wasn't worth it..

Our oldest is loosing his job in 45 days.. the RTF Facility he works is closing.. what am I harping on.. he has to find another with a decent health care plan.. he saved $17,000 in 12 months (frugal boy that one!) making $12.50 an hour, lots of overtime..I don't want to see that go up in smoke if , heaven forbid, he had an emergency crisis in between jobs/ coverage.. I realize the chances are very slim.. but still .. he'd be considered rich with all that in the bank, it would exhaust every dime he worked for..
It's unfortunate that Health Insurance is so tied to one's job. It really restricts employment choices.

At the company I work for the line workers make very little hourly pay but the Health Insurance is fantastic.

The weird thing is that we used to hire "lifers" to whom this was very important. Now we're getting young singles who don't need top shelf insurance but what we can pay them is restricted by the cost of the health benefits (we'd could pat them another $3-$4 /hr if the union didn't have such an expensive health plan (which is very important to the older workers).

I'd really like to unentangle the two, but it won't be easy.
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post #65 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 10:26 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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he's 26.. he's the one with the worthless Psychology degree...and no, he's not going back to college for a Masters .... he's stubborn like that..
Ok, so he's too old to be on your policy.

We he will be able to get on Medicaid if he does not have a job, or is very low income right now.
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post #66 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 10:39 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Well true.. Democrats haven't done anything about it either.. I don't hear people getting in an uproar about it.. it's not a hot topic.. had it been.. I would have voted...

Not everyone votes with their own pocketbook in mind.. at least many of the blind sheep in Christendom haven't, in church yesterday.. pounding the abortion issue, they showed a video of Hilary speaking - the whole "up to 9 months in the womb"... this plays on their emotions, the horror of it.....

Many of our Conservative Trump supporting friends are struggling financially.... I can't say Myself & husband are .. but if we lost our health care, couldn't afford it (he stayed at a lousy job for 18 yrs just for the health benefits)... if we suddenly had a Crisis.... everything we saved / built would go up in flames... it's a fear... I can't imagine the stress some are under just trying to put food on the table , if they have debilitating health issues & lousy insurance..

all I am really after in this thread is more honesty... can these people (like Ayn Rand)... just outright admit they are Greedy.. a virtue of theirs is "Selfishness", the title of one of her books...she defends it.. applauds it... my husband brought up her name the other day.. I never heard of her..

Just not interested in listening to their endless drivel about how they care for this group of people, that group of people... it's all lies and pandering...

I think this Urban Dictionary definition of "Capitalism" pretty much sums up what is happening all over the Political landscape.. (Yeah rich democrats are taking just as much advantage of this - no doubt!)


...and the Gap grows steeper every year...

.....
Your church plays anti-Hillary and pro-Trump videos?!
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post #67 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 10:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Ok, so he's too old to be on your policy.

We he will be able to get on Medicaid if he does not have a job, or is very low income right now.
but he wouldn't qualify, even if he had 0 income... he has too much $$ saved !.. they have limits on these things, maybe $2,000 max ...or they always did before..... I would be hugely surprised if they lifted these..


So yeah.. . he needs to jump into another job unless he is going to pay for some stupid plan $300 + a month with a deductible of $15,000 or so.
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post #68 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 10:44 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Concerning Christianity, the bible supports free market capitalism with equal weights and measures. The bible warns against greed. There were plenty of men mentioned in the bible who obtained tremendous wealth for their time and were Godly men. It's not the wealth but the way it is obtained that matters to God. Obtaining wealth through hard work honors God as long as God is always the focus, not money. The LOVE of money, not money, is the root of all evil.

We, in the United States, have not had real capitalism for over 100 years. It's not possible with a private entity controlling interest rates while creating money from nothing with debt + interest owed to that entity. What we have is a bastardized combination of fascism, socialism, and capitalism. And this combination benefits mostly the ruling elite and its benefactors, the Wall Street Banks (hedge funds, really) and the multi-national corporations. Trump aims to reintroduce the Glass-Steaggall Act which was repealed by Bill Clinton and led to a taxpayer subsidized Wall Street and financial crisis (soon to be repeated 2017 -2020).

Capitalism creates wealth and prosperity. This is not opinion, just proven, historical fact.

There is not a single, successful historical example of socialism leading to increased prosperity. Not one. And if you think Western Europe is where it's at, wait for the coming financial crisis there as well.

That is why countries with freer economies (less government intrusion into a free person's decisions between a willing buyer and a willing seller), experience more prosperity.

By the way, Wall Street loved Hillary Clinton. She received mega$$$ from them in donations, not to mention all the $$$ to the Clinton Foundation for "speeches." She started her career in politics with a net worth of a couple hundred grand and now has a net worth of $45 million, all the while on a government "servant's" salary.


Wall Street does not represent capitalism. It is pure corporatism. If not for the government's financial support, they would not exist. They obtain vast wealth through non-productive labor, political graft, and outright fraud. You see, in capitalism, you are not protected from your poor choices or your corruption. But in corporatism, you are protected by the state, much the same way Obama protected John Corzine from his billion dollar theft of his clients' money.

Progressives make the mistake of correlating "helping the poor" with using other people's money to do so, while biblically speaking, it's an individual act and an act of the Church body. You see, big government has usurped the Church's role in providing for the poor. And there are plenty of able bodied people receiving welfare as a result.

Progressives suffer from two main capital vices, Pride and Envy. Pride is believing one is essentially better than others. Progressives believe they are better than others, both as individuals and as a group (better educated, more "enlightened"). Progressives envy those with tremendous wealth (unless they are Hollywood stars, liberal athletes, liberal politicians, or Oprah). Progressivism is a prideful reaction to envy. Progressives fan the flames of envy so they may play the prideful role of Robin Hood to the envious sinners they create.

Envy is the root of all Communist thought and the purist form of Marxism. In Communism there is tyranny, despair, and death. The Democratic party has embraced 9 out of the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto. This ideology has infected many college age kids. Look how they throw temper tantrums when their candidate loses, beat up Trump supporters, and threaten to kill the President Elect. Their Marxist ideology has never been challenged and they can't imagine anything else. That's why you see the endless ...ism's thrown like darts at people with opposing views. Racist, homophobic, xenophobic, uneducated, etc. That is because their arguments cannot hold up to even mild scrutiny backed by facts, correctly linking cause and effect. We seem to have a young generation of self-entitled, cry-baby, politically correct, morally relativistic, i-phone drones who are full of pride, greed, sloth, lust, and wrath. Pathetic. Makes me want to vomit.
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post #69 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 10:53 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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This^^^^^

So true. What bothers me the most....how many ideas has humanity lost due to this? How many minds never achieved all they could have due to poor nutrition, poor education, loss of hope???

We all lose
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post #70 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 11:15 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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so you don't have any issues with the huge disparity.. asking these questions.. I don't see the point.. it's a freaking huge disparity.. if that speaks nothing to you, or you want to argue this somehow.. .. I GET IT.....it's loud & clear...though I am surprised that so many feel like you.. I'll just go sit back in my corner...
I'm disturbed that I seem to have used the wrong tone here entirely. I am VERY sympathetic to your situation and others in it. I'm not the least bit interested in the well being of rich people. Anyone who is willing to show up for work for 40 hours / week and do their best should be able make a decent living and afford a reasonable level of health care.

I believe in capitalism because I care about people exactly like you. The problem is that "everyone looking out for their own self interest" sure doesn't sound good, but it's been the only economic system that's worked to improve the lives of most people (remember that the whole of human history has consisted of the great majority of people living in grinding poverty).

I'm not interested in people's motivation, I care about results.

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I am not envious of these people.. I'm not a materialist type of woman..oh I have some complaints in life.. but it's never been that I longed for more wealth.
Neither am I. I look at capitalism as a way of tricking smart, driven people to work way too hard and ignore their families in order to improve the lives of everyone. It's just that, in order for capitalism to benefit the masses, some people have to get really stinking rich (some undeservedly so). That's the price that needs to be paid.

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so far we have good health...but still I would like a world where health care is not an issue for the working man & women though... as you see I keep mentioning this.. there was a poster on another thread..... who I felt was very callous to another's situation.. a child with cancer...how Obama's plan saved a tremendous amount of worry during the darkest of times in their lives... he says something back how this is a privilege.. not a right...
Just because the ACA helped some people doesn't mean that it was the best way to help the most people. Conservatives didn't oppose the ACA because it cost money or because they hated Obama. It was a bad policy that catered to the interests of the drug companies, insurance companies and the health care industry. There are far better ways to make health care affordable to more people. Really. I've got two feet of bookshelf filled with proposals. Hopefully, Trump will choose one of them.

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Ok.. so really .. can we just be brutally honest here.. a # of conservative Republicans actually do feel - if you are not savvy enough, worked hard enough to be successful, stupid enough to not get a job where health benefits cover you (these are not easy to find anymore)...so basically the unlucky son of a B who has a major health crisis who didn't have coverage under his belt... even if this person works 60 hrs a week trying to take care of his family.....so what - let the sucker die, his kids too!! Hell yeah...
I don't think many Republicans feel this way at all. They want people to have well paying jobs, health care and be able to raise families. They think that an excessive nanny state government is what's getting in the way. They may be wrong, but they have exactly the same good intentions that Democrats have. It seems to me that Democrats mostly think that having good intentions is all that matters.

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post #71 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 11:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Progressives make the mistake of correlating "helping the poor" with using other people's money to do so, while biblically speaking, it's an individual act and an act of the Church body. You see, big government has usurped the Church's role in providing for the poor. And there are plenty of able bodied people receiving welfare as a result.
well, don't you know God is DEAD.. this is far from a christian caring nation.. what a joke... church attendance has fallen mightily... I don't know the statistics... don't even get me started on the Prosperity Mega churches of our time.. and we wonder why everyone calls Christians Hypocrites.. just like I can't defend Trump.. I can't defend them either... they have tainted so much..

And think about it...one health care crisis.. a family without coverage.. could wipe a church & it's members dry in giving.... it's not reasonable to even go there.. not with these outrageous health care costs.. it's a real problem.. there are no easy answers..

So again.. it is well & good to just let people die who can't afford to live ?? I see not a soul is addressing this .. I guess it's not "politically correct" to ask such a thing.. it's easier to throw arrows at those with my concerns.... telling us we must be envious or prideful.. wanting to play Modern day Robin Hood.
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Progressives suffer from two main capital vices, Pride and Envy. Pride is believing one is essentially better than others. Progressives believe they are better than others, both as individuals and as a group (better educated, more "enlightened"). Progressives envy those with tremendous wealth (unless they are Hollywood stars, liberal athletes, liberal politicians, or Oprah). Progressivism is a prideful reaction to envy. Progressives fan the flames of envy so they may play the prideful role of Robin Hood to the envious sinners they create.
I am clueless on the whole "Progressive" thing.. so I tried reading this to make some sense.. What's the Difference Between a Liberal and a Progressive? | The Huffington Post

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Envy is the root of all Communist thought and the purist form of Marxism. In Communism there is tyranny, despair, and death. The Democratic party has embraced 9 out of the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto. This ideology has infected many college age kids. Look how they throw temper tantrums when their candidate loses, beat up Trump supporters, and threaten to kill the President Elect. Their Marxist ideology has never been challenged and they can't imagine anything else. That's why you see the endless ...ism's thrown like darts at people with opposing views. Racist, homophobic, xenophobic, uneducated, etc. That is because their arguments cannot hold up to even mild scrutiny backed by facts, correctly linking cause and effect. We seem to have a young generation of self-entitled, cry-baby, politically correct, morally relativistic, i-phone drones who are full of pride, greed, sloth, lust, and wrath. Pathetic. Makes me want to vomit.
it's a F'd up world out there.. I will agree with you here..
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post #72 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 11:26 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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but he wouldn't qualify, even if he had 0 income... he has too much $$ saved !.. they have limits on these things, maybe $2,000 max ...or they always did before..... I would be hugely surprised if they lifted these..
It's stupid rule like this that make me think we can't trust the government to run things. Good behavior is encouraged. Bad behavior rewarded.

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So yeah.. . he needs to jump into another job unless he is going to pay for some stupid plan $300 + a month with a deductible of $15,000 or so.
At his age, unless he has some significant medical problem, he should absolutely prioritize opportunity over whatever health plan is being offered.

In the worst case scenario his savings would cover the deductible (nothing happens to 26 year old men, they're indestructible).

He has to seize whatever opportunity comes his way.
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post #73 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 11:33 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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So again.. it is well & good to just let people die who can't afford to live ?? I see not a soul is addressing this.
No. It's absolutely NOT okay to just let people die who can't afford to live.

There are food stamps for people who can't afford food.

Housing vouchers for people who can't afford homes.

There should be "healthcare" vouchers for people who can't afford decent health care.

Every alternate health care plan I know of addresses this.

For a good example of an alternative, try "Catastrophic Care" by David Goldhill.
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post #74 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 12:04 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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I don't think many Republicans feel this way at all. They want people to have well paying jobs, health care and be able to raise families. They think that an excessive nanny state government is what's getting in the way. They may be wrong, but they have exactly the same good intentions that Democrats have. It seems to me that Democrats mostly think that having good intentions is all that matters.
They may WANT IT.. they may speak this.. I just see them with empty hands at this point.. sorry @Buddy400... not convinced ...... it's in all of our backyards... they turn a blind eye... yet applaud and defend these CEO's taking our jobs to other countries. it's a FREE MARKET after all...

Look many of you are defending their right to be do whatever the he** they want.. to give themselves 3 million in bonuses...go for it !!....meanwhile.. next breath... it's completely OK that we're blind to the lower incomes plight... if this is your reality... and you look to the dead Church to be helping these people... (pipe dream- fantasy as unrealistic as a romance novel)...I see your mouths moving.. .but what good it is in the lives of men??

It's similar to those , when they hear of devastation, of pain, or need .. but all they offer is "I will pray for you" .. "I will pray for you"... and do NOTHING....absolutely nothing to help someone ..empty hands...

I get it .. it's not the role of the Government.. that's your position.. so just own it Please.. if Republicans had their way.. people who can't afford whatever ...they just need to pull up the boot straps , if they fall down dead trying to live.. so be it... we're NOT our brothers keeper.. but we'll continue to pass all sorts of laws for loopholes for the rich .. gotta love it..

I guess it's official.. I must be a Liberal .... Gawd I cringe with that word.. what did @jld say the other day .. Politically she is a Liberal & Socially / family wise she is more conservative.. something to that effect...I guess that's me too!!

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No. It's absolutely NOT okay to just let people die who can't afford to live.

There are food stamps for people who can't afford food.

Housing vouchers for people who can't afford homes.

There should be "healthcare" vouchers for people who can't afford decent health care.

Every alternate health care plan I know of addresses this.

For a good example of an alternative, try "Catastrophic Care" by David Goldhill.
Yeah because Democrats have brought these things into existence, or do I have this wrong?? Frankly.. I don't believe , without them.. we'd have any of this.. I do not believe the majority of wealthy Republicans care at all... how can they relate to us ?? .. for those who are RICH Democrats... I actually give them some credit !...they must want to share the wealth (and yeah this hits their pockets too)...I'm actually surprised more don't just join Republican ranks so less of their pay is eaten up...stopping these Robin Hood Dem's from giving to the masses...

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post #75 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 12:31 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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They may WANT IT.. they may speak this.. I just see them with empty hands at this point.. sorry @Buddy400... not convinced ...... it's in all of our backyards... they turn a blind eye... yet applaud and defend these CEO's taking our jobs to other countries. it's a FREE MARKET after all...
It is not only republicans who support CEOs taking jobs out of the country. The Democrat party has been as much a supporter of this as the Republicans. The party leaders are all making big bucks off this. They have for a very long time. And they have sold their souls to the corporate interests. There is no difference between the parties in this. And this is a big reason for Trumpís win.
He says that heís going to do the things necessary to being business back here. And he says that he wants to put term limits for Congress in place. We need these things.

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Look many of you are defending their right to be do whatever the he** they want.. to give themselves 3 million in bonuses...go for it !!....meanwhile.. next breath... it's completely OK that we're blind to the lower incomes plight... if this is your reality...
Who are you talking about here? Republicans? Libertarians? People on this thread? Not sure.
I think that the issue is not that most conservatives are blind to the plight of lower income people. Itís that they might see different ways of handling it. Giving people a hand up is very different than giving a hand out. It would seem to me that we should strive to get anyone off welfare/support as soon as possible. That means job training programs and/or educational opportunities. What most do not like is turning welfare into a lifelong and even generational life style. How does this help anyone? We need to find ways to get people back to work, off support and earning a good living. That is so superior to welfare.

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and you look to the dead Church to be helping these people... (pipe dream- fantasy as unrealistic as a romance novel)...I see your mouths moving.. .but what good it is in the lives of men.. it's similar to those , when they hear of a devastation, of pain, or need .. but all they offer is "I will pray for you" .. "I will pray for you"... and do NOTHING....absolutely nothing to help someone in need.. deplorable..
I agree that the Church cannot be relied on anymore for taking care of the poor. There are way too many sects in this country to get any kind of really strong program out of the over 2,000 sects in this country.
I think that government programs is the way we have to go. It would be wrong to tell a person that they have to go to x church to get support when that person does not believe in what is taught at that church. Often times churches will try to force a person to exercise their version of Christianity in order to get any support. Plus, the churchís no longer have a resources that they used to have.

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I get it .. it's not the role of the Government.. that's your position.. so just own it Please.. if Republicans had their way.. people who can't afford whatever ...they just need to pull up the boot straps , if they fall down dead trying to live.. so be it... we're NOT our brothers keeper.. but we'll continue to pass all sorts of laws for loopholes for the rich .. gotta love it..
I disagree with the above. I do not believe that this is the Republican platform. Not all republicans want some church to take this over. Few are ok with the idea of not helping the poor. The questions are how much, for how long and how to get people self sufficient. I
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I guess it's official.. I must be a Liberal .... Gawd I cringe with that word.. what did @jld say the other day .. Politically she is a Liberal & Socially / family wise she is more conservative.. something to that effect...I guess that's me too!!
I think that you are talking in stereo types here. There are plenty of conservatives that are not like what you are describing here.

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Yeah because Democrats have brought these things into existence, or do I have this wrong?? Frankly.. I don't believe , without them.. we'd have any of this.. I do not believe the majority of wealthy Republicans care at all... how can they relate to us ?? .. for those who are RICH Democrats... I actually give them some credit !...they must want to share the wealth (and yeah this hits their pockets too)...I'm actually surprised more don't just join Republican ranks so less of their pay is eaten up...stopping these Robin Hood Dem's to giving to the masses...
Rich democrats are just as selfish as rich republicans. I am not sure why you think that there is a difference. Well the difference is that the rich democrats talk a good speal about all this, but in the end the also use every tax break they can get; they get their huge bonuses; and they contribute much less to charity than rich republicans.

I think you are grossly mistaken on the Republican platform. Do you even know what it is?

Just because some guy here says that he does not care about poor does nto mean that he is speaking for anyone but himself.
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