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post #121 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 09:32 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
That's not fair. I have said many things many different ways. Often I get replied to with a red high five and a Trump Trump Trump. Or a "liberals" this or a "progressives" that. If you look at my posts, I rarely, if ever, specifically call out conservatives or republicans. Because I don't believe in that. I believe in people and Americans and doing what's right.

You know what is the most un-American ideology? If you say to yourself, "I will never vote for *blue*" or "I will never vote for *red*" you should not consider yourself an American (well, you know, the figurative sense of the word). We live in a democracy and BOTH parties have value to things that they say. To automatically dismiss one side is fascist. If all you want to read and see and hear is things that reinforce your beliefs, that is not American. I have not said one word about Republicans or Conservatives because Trump really isn't either, and he goes above and beyond that.

Trump is an example of what happens when people only vote for their color, giving up what they know is right and selling out just to "win". He is in no way qualified to be president and he is for almost all measures a terrible human being. If that offends you because you voted for him, don't hate the messenger. Hate yourself for putting President Trump in the back of all the Social Studies books.
Very few people voted for Trump because of his skin color, stop making stuff up. That is why you are intolerant, you project your beliefs as to why the other side did something. AND YOU ARE WRONG about this. People voted for Trump, primarily, because the economy has been in the crapper for ~12 years. Hope and change didn't fix it, worst recovery, ever. Is that BO's fault? Partially. hence why the D's lost.


Last edited by naiveonedave; 11-15-2016 at 09:37 AM.
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post #122 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 09:35 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Originally Posted by naiveonedave View Post
Very few people voted for Trump because of his skin color, stop making stuff up. That is why you are intolerant, you project your beliefs as to why the other side did something. AND YOU ARE WRONG about this. People voted for Trump, primarily, because the economy has been in the crapper for ~12 years. Hope and change didn't fix it, worst recovery, ever. Is that BO's fault? Partially. hence why the D's lost.
When did I say people voted for him based on skin color. You are making stuff up.

(I see the mix up...read my whole post...color refers to Red, meaning republican)
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post #123 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 09:38 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
When did I say people voted for him based on skin color. You are making stuff up.

(I see the mix up...read my whole post...color refers to Red, meaning republican)
I highlighted what you said. Clear as day.
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post #124 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 09:41 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
That's not fair. I have said many things many different ways. Often I get replied to with a red high five and a Trump Trump Trump. Or a "liberals" this or a "progressives" that. If you look at my posts, I rarely, if ever, specifically call out conservatives or republicans. Because I don't believe in that. I believe in people and Americans and doing what's right.

You know what is the most un-American ideology? If you say to yourself, "I will never vote for *blue*" or "I will never vote for *red*" you should not consider yourself an American (well, you know, the figurative sense of the word). We live in a democracy and BOTH parties have value to things that they say. To automatically dismiss one side is fascist. If all you want to read and see and hear is things that reinforce your beliefs, that is not American. I have not said one word about Republicans or Conservatives because Trump really isn't either, and he goes above and beyond that.

Trump is an example of what happens when people only vote for their color, giving up what they know is right and selling out just to "win". He is in no way qualified to be president and he is for almost all measures a terrible human being. If that offends you because you voted for him, don't hate the messenger. Hate yourself for putting President Trump in the back of all the Social Studies books.
I can get behind many things you have said here.

Trump may be a demagogue, blustery, and an @sshole, but that is no different than the current president. Anyone who sees it differently is either biased or has short term memory loss. Additionally, how many voters were willing to vote for Hillary because of her gender, or Obama because of his race? I will refer you to George Carlin for the entire process: " "Maybe it's the people who suck."

Lastly, @Herschel, you're far too educated to perpetuate the myth that America is a democracy. This is been pointed out to you at least one other time since the election took place.

ETA: I just saw your clarification regarding the color term. I withdraw that portion of my post, but left it in place so people didn't think I was modifying it nefariously.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #125 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 09:42 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Originally Posted by naiveonedave View Post
I highlighted what you said. Clear as day.
You said skin, I did not say skin...clear as mud.
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post #126 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 10:40 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Not denying this at all.. so am I wrong when I said that It was Democrats who started food stamps and housing for the poor? was their a majority vote from the Republicans too...(obviously I really don't know the facts).... those are still "hands UP" to me in a time of need.. and many still need food stamps after they are working even.. they can't afford to live on minimum wage jobs.... [/COLOR]
Your question of who started the food stamps and housing for the poor seems to assume that there was nothing available until the federal government created a federal welfare program in the 1930’s during the great depression.

Welfare programs existed in every state long before that. The issue during the depression became who should be responsible for it, not whether or not to help people in need. I have not found the voting records for which party voted for which bills. What I do know is that those who voted against is were not voting against offering welfare to those in need. They believed that welfare is better handled by the state and local governments than by the federal government because the states and local governments know what their local people need far better than a bunch of people sitting in Washington, DC.

Here is a bit of history that covers this.
BRIA 14 3 a How Welfare Began in the United States - Constitutional Rights Foundation

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
This is happening today, isn't it.. when one is out of work & getting any Government benefits... now they have to PROVE they are looking for work with documentation in order to keep those benefits.. [/COLOR]

Did you know that one of Bill Clinton’s campaign promises was to reform welfare requiring people on welfare to look for work? It was the welfare to work program.

Why do you think it’s wrong to require able bodied people to look for work? Do you know that when a person gets unemployment that they have to provide proof that they are looking for work? If they are not looking, they don’t get unemployment. The only time I was on unemployment was in the early 1970’s. I had to go into the unemployment office every week with a paper signed by the people who interviewed me for jobs. If I did not turn in that paper every week I would have lost my unemployment.

The idea of welfare to work laws is to stop what was happening with some people who were getting unemployment for decades. No able bodied person should be able to get welfare for life while they do nothing.

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
like I mentioned my GF earlier, she was given I think $1,200 towards a car, when her's died...so she could continue working..she always worked.. In her case.. she even bought a house.. she lived very poorly in order to do these things.. her income was so low.. she still qualified for help... but honesty... she still needed help in order to live, even working near full time at these jobs.. so someone would look at her and think... it needs taken away.. but she never stopped working.. she was a responsible citizen.. it just wasn't enough to live on.. [/COLOR]

I am sure that there are some small subset of people who would want to take welfare assistance away from someone like your friend. But it’s a very small minority. If she was hard working but not able to earn enough to live on, then most would agree that she should get some help. Too bad our system is not set up to help her get better skills so that she could earn more. That would be the best scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
I've already said I am not Up on Politics.. I have learned enough on this thread to see.. what is the point.. what is happening with the mega rich , Democrats & Republicans alike.. they are all in bed with each other - your own words "The Democrat party has been as much a supporter of this as the Republicans. The party leaders are all making big bucks off this. They have for a very long time. And they have sold their souls to the corporate interests. There is no difference between the parties in this."

This is a lot of why Trump won. Like Michael more said, it was the biggest “F U” to the establishment in history.

Last edited by EleGirl; 11-15-2016 at 10:48 AM.
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post #127 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 10:55 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Democrats are NOT supporters of CEOs and the .01%. Bernie Sanders was their real pick. Dems believe in caps on top earners, even out the wealth gap. Do that and can stop having this conversation and let decent people live decent lives. Requires hard truth and not believing the party who gives tax breaks to a man who earns 9.5M a year. Stop it! Stop believing their lies!
No, Bernie was not the their real pick. Their real pick was Hillary. The democrat party is defined by the people who run it, the people that the voters put in Congress, and in their state government. And all of those people have sold their souls to big corporations, all of them are getting rich off insider trading info, hugely inflated speaking fees, etc.

Bernie Sanders is one guy who was allowed to play for a while by the real democrats who are all in the pocket of big business.
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post #128 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 10:57 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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I was a Bernie voter, too, Anon. Bernie truly cares about people.

His wife said he ran because the Democrats needed "a good person" in the race. Tells me a lot about how they viewed Hillary Clinton.

Ele posted two links recently from the Jimmy Dore show talking about why Hillary lost the election. @EleGirl, could you post them here? I think SA (and her husband) would enjoy watching them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyBMhmK79tg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOcstHhtL4Y
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post #129 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 11:08 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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SA, here is an article examining Mrs. Clinton's and Mr. Trump's tax plans.

Putting all other campaign rhetoric aside, what does each plan tell you about their priorities?

Trump v Clinton: Comparing their economic plans - BBC News
Looking at the numbers do not tell the intent.

Trump wants to do what JFK and Ragan did. Both of them reduced the tax rates across the board. What happened was that people spent their tax savings thus energizing the economy. In the end, the amount of taxes collect was much higher with lower tax rates because more people had jobs and so more people were paying taxes.

Further, Trump wants to simplify the tax code because it's just gotten to be ridiculously complicated.

What the table tells me is that there are two different philosophies.

The one we have had for 16 years has not worked. So let's see if this change works.
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post #130 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 11:13 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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They are selling milkshakes during a church service? Seriously?

When I was going to church, years ago, we got a sip of wine and a paper-thin wafer at the end of the mass. Otherwise there was sometimes a water fountain in the church basement.

Dug says they want that 10% of your income . . . They are doing a sales job on you, SA.
Tithing 10% is in the Bible. The reason for it is that the Church is supposed to use that to support the priests so that they can spend their time taking care of the congregation; having a place for worship; and the rest of the money, the bulk of it, is supposed to be used to help the poor, the sick, etc.

At one time in history, the church was a large part of how people governed... it was basically the social welfare part of society.

If your church is not using their money that way, they are not a good church.

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post #131 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 11:16 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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I get it .. it's not the role of the Government.. that's your position.. so just own it Please.
If the best way to help people was for the government to do something, I'd be for the government doing it.

The only reason I don't think the government should be involved is because, in my opinion, that makes things worse.

I think work is very important to a person's self esteem.

We have to be very careful, while trying to help, that we don't take that away from them.

If it was possible for me to not work and maintain close to my current standard of living, I'd do it too.

So we have to maintain the incentive to work while, at the same time, not allow people to suffer. It's a difficult balancing act.
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post #132 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 11:18 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Welfare prevents them from living like that. It would be an embarrassment to America to let them live that way. And to keep them from rising up like to French Revolution. We give them something to placate ourselves and to not have 47% homeless or living in shanty towns.

Wake up, all. It's right in front of you. The numbers are astounding. Appalling. Wake up.
What are you talking about? Wake up? To what?

No one here is saying to not have welfare and give people a hand up.

Capitalism, kept under control by laws, has been the best producer of wealth in the history of the human race. We need to fix some things, but we cannot throw out capitalism entirely.

Do you want to live like places in Africa and SA where most people are not allowed the benefits of capitalism?
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post #133 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 11:19 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

This is who Trump brings on to help his strategy and messaging.

10 of Breitbart's most incendiary headlines - Nov. 14, 2016
Posted via Mobile Device
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post #134 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 11:21 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Capitalism doesn't "work." Industrial Revolution brought up the standard of living for many, but the rich/poor wealth gap always widens with capitalism. A war or crash comes and corrects this, but crashes are stopped now. Wealth divide is huge! Tax breaks for wealthy is stupid! The top 1% make 10X the average worker. Real story is 15,000 families with $9.5M annual income. The .01%. $142,500,000,000 combined annual income for these people. They make more combined annually than the fiscal year state budget of Texas. Budget for Temp Assistance for Needy families is 1/10th the annual income of the super rich. Republicans want you to get mad at the poor so you won't notice them getting richer. Cries against welfare is just purposeful massive distraction. Stop falling for it.

If you think giving the super rich will do anything except line their pockets and donate to the party who makes them rich, you are mistaken. Workers, Christians: you've been played for fools.
I'd rather make $50,000 a year while others make billions than make $20,000 while the richest only make $40,000.

The wealth gap doesn't concern me. My standard of living (and that of the working poor) concerns me.

The wealth gap widened under Obama because the stock market kept going up while wages for working people stagnated. This was largely due to government policy.
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post #135 of 346 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 11:24 AM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Out of the Old Testament, right? I thought Christianity came out of the New Testament?

But don't let that interfere with a great marketing program . . .
It is in both the OT and NT.

The topic of what applies, OT/NT differs depending on the Christian sect. For Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic and Byzantine Christians the NT takes precedence but the OT is still relevant.

Old Testament

"Tithe" means a tenth or 10 percent. The tithing system described in the Bible was designed specifically to meet the needs of the religious, economic and political system of ancient Israel. Each of the twelve tribes of Israel, except the tribe of Levi, initially received an allotment of land in the promised land of Canaan. The Levites were assistants to Israel's priests and were supported by a tithe offering from other eleven tribes. All families of those eleven tribes were to give a tenth of all produce, flocks, and cattle to the Levites. In turn, the Levites were to give a tenth of that to support the priests (Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18:21-28). Tithes were also used to meet the needs of foreigners, orphans and widows. (Deuteronomy 26:12-13)

In addition, everyone was to be generous with those in need:
If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs. (NIV, Deuteronomy 15:7-8)

New Testament

There are several mentions of tithing in the New Testament (Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, 18:12; Hebrews 7:5-9), but all refer to the Old Testament system. The New Testament does not give any specific rules about tithing, and most aspects of the Old Testament Law do not apply to Christians. (See What Does the Bible Say About the Old Testament Law?)

Jesus seems to support the tithe in Matthew 23:23-24, but these verses are primarily intended as a criticism of the Pharisees as hypocrites who obeyed the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. They were so meticulous about the law that they tithed even the small amounts of spices they grew in household gardens, but they ignored the more important matters of justice, mercy and faith!
However, Jesus made it clear that we are obligated to be generous to those in need (Matthew 25:31-46).

Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (NIV, Matthew 5:42)

Giving is to be done cheerfully, rather than as an obligation (2*Corinthians 9:6-7), and not for the purpose of public recognition (Matthew 6:1-4). The right amount to give may be more or less than ten percent, depending on one's circumstances (Matthew 19:21, Luke 18:22, 21:1-4, Hebrews 13:16, 1*John 3:17). Generous giving is an acknowledgment that everything we have is a gift from God, and is to be used in His service (Luke 12:33, Acts 20:35, 1*Timothy 6:17-19, James 1:17, 1:27, 1*Peter 4:10).

Rather than give a certain amount as an obligation, we are urged to share generously of whatever talents, abilities and wealth God has entrusted to us:
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. (NIV, Romans 12:6-8)

What Does the Bible Say About the Tithe or Tithing?
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