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post #1 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 01:38 PM Thread Starter
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Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Talking with a friend yesterday.. she said something I now believe is the sorry truth..

I feel Republicans IN OFFICE / in the media put on a good front, basically USING side issues like abortion, embracing those who hold more "traditional values", all the 2nd amendment talk..... but ultimately their aim is ALL about Capitalism, free market and more benefits for the RICH, Corporations, more loopholes.. I am literally shocked someone like Trump didn't have to pay taxes.. I would have never entertained something like this.. it is so outrageous to me.. and his worth is ? and this is OK somehow.. defended ???

Admittedly I do not follow Politics much ...they all seem snakes to me.. like many, a certain issue may hold more of an appeal to me over another, while obviously I am clueless to the REAL agenda at play...I believe my friend is right.

I went to church yesterday, 1st time in a year or so...thought it'd be interesting to see what is said about Trump...I can't tell you how many times I rolled my eyes...thinking "Really!@#"... the Pastor was going on -how NOW WE HAVE "HOPE" AGAIN, hallelujah, euphoria rising in the pews... Trump is the answer to our prayers...he's being used by God like the heathen leader Cyrus ... had to come home & google this...many articles like these....

Is Donald Trump a Modern-Day Cyrus? ? Charisma News
Quote:
Christians have been pointing to the book of Isaiah and comparing Trump with the ancient Persian King Cyrus. Some have even claimed that God has revealed to them that He will use Trump for the good of America just as He used Cyrus for the good of the Jewish people, even though Cyrus was a "pagan" king.
.. then in the next breath he's saying something about us living honorably before God !

Have they lost their minds.... what I can't reconcile is how many Christians are turning a blind eye to obvious Greed.. defending those who perpetuate it..

Now this article I can get behind, reason is present and it's surely more Biblically sound - given these passages on Greed | Bibleinfo.com

Why Do Religious Republicans Stridently Defend Greed?

Quote:
I just can’t wrap my mind around the fact that many so-called conservative Christians defend so virulently the notion that Americans should be given free reign to covet and amass hugely disproportionate fortunes in finance by gaming the system, especially in the face of so much Biblical scripture and doctrine that speaks forcefully about the evils of unchecked greed and avarice. These are the same conservative Christians that are able to turn on a dime and spend huge amounts of time and anger frothing at the mouth about sins like homosexuality, which Jesus himself never even bothered to mention.

As a random blogger I came across noted:

When Jesus tossed over tables in the temple, he hadn’t just stumbled into an abortion clinic. He didn’t happen upon a homosexual tryst. He reacted in holy anger because he had walked into a cesspool of greed.

In fact, you can make a strong argument based on the full context of the Biblical narrative that Jesus was far more gracious and compassionate toward the woman caught in adultery than to the Pharisees and Sadducees whom he once called “vipers” or toward the money changers he saw cashing in on the floor of His father’s temple.
Does it really make any sense...

....

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post #2 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 01:54 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

[QUOTE=SimplyAmorous;16878674]Talking with a friend yesterday.. she said something I now believe is the sorry truth..

I feel Republicans IN OFFICE / in the media put on a good front, basically USING side issues like abortion, embracing those who hold more "traditional values", all the 2nd amendment talk..... but ultimately their aim is ALL about Capitalism, free market and more benefits for the RICH, Corporations, more loopholes.. I am literally shocked someone like Trump didn't have to pay taxes.. I would have never entertained something like this.. it is so outrageous to me.. and his worth is ? and this is OK somehow.. defended ???



Everything...EVERYTHING...always comes down to the dollars.

The only way that will change -is to change the tax laws. Our elected officials have the ability to do this -but they NEVER do.

Thinking that wealthy men and women will willingly change the existing tax laws to benefit ANYONE else is just insane. They won't do it -as people (pretty much all people) -will always do what they believe to be in their best interest at that moment.

It never ceases to both amuse and offend me that both of the major parties have been able to so consistently convince working people to vote against their best interests. It is doubtful that it will go on forever...eventually a reckoning will come, as they do, with blood.

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post #3 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 02:12 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

@SimplyAmorous I think you are spot on with the above post. But I would label all politicians as about enriching themselves.

The problem is that the Dems and Reps have try to carve out a niche of nominally 55% of the population. Reps have some of the rich, the social conservatives and what not. The Dems have some of the rich, social liberals, minorities. Many of us fall into the trap that the parties actually fit us....
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post #4 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 02:40 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

SA,

Do you think this is reasonable?

Speaking hypothetically:

I have a business with income and expenses. I'm going to use small numbers in my example to make this easy to write.

Income
Sales of sales of services...$10,000
Sale of widgets.................$ 5,000
Total Income......................$15,000 <- so I have 15K gross income for the year.

Expenses
Office rent.......................$ 2,000
Fuel and auto usage..........$ 2,000
Advertising Costs..............$ 2,000
Cost to build widgets.........$ 4,000
Total Expenses.....................$10,000

Net profit $5,000 <- that's 15K - 10K expenses

According to the tax laws, I got to deduct my expenses against the gross profit, leaving me with a real profit of only $5,000.

My company will only pay income tax on the $5,000

Does that seem reasonable to you?

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post #5 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 02:52 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
SA,

Do you think this is reasonable?

Speaking hypothetically:

I have a business with income and expenses. I'm going to use small numbers in my example to make this easy to write.

Income
Sales of sales of services...$10,000
Sale of widgets.................$ 5,000
Total Income......................$15,000 <- so I have 15K gross income for the year.

Expenses
Office rent.......................$ 2,000
Fuel and auto usage..........$ 2,000
Advertising Costs..............$ 2,000
Cost to build widgets.........$ 4,000
Total Expenses.....................$10,000

Net profit $5,000 <- that's 15K - 10K expenses

According to the tax laws, I got to deduct my expenses against the gross profit, leaving me with a real profit of only $5,000.

My company will only pay income tax on the $5,000

Does that seem reasonable to you?
I know you didn't ask me -but I will say -Yes, it's reasonable...you didn't even get into the depreciation...One of my favorites.

The rules are the rules -until they change - The reality (which is how My family -and most that I know) have run businesses is thus:

Income
Sales of sales of services...$10,000
Sale of widgets.................$ 5,000
Total Income......................$15,000 <- so I have 15K gross income for the year.

Expenses
Office rent.......................$ 4,000 (rent the property from yourself)
Fuel and auto usage..........$ 2,000 (ALL vehicles that you use are owned and maintained by your LLC or another that leases to your business)
Advertising Costs..............$ 2,000 (Sub out your advertising to another business)
Labor/Insurance...............$ 5,000 (Your pay -also part of the cost of goods sold)
Cost to build widgets.........$ 5,000.
Total Expenses.....................$18,000

Net profit ($3000) You've lost 3000....Taxes owed...zero. Bring into the mix....interest expense, Depreciation, etc...you pay nothing...and you carry your nothing over another year too.

None of this is illegal...It's not loopholes...It is the law as written.

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Raked by machine gun fire.
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post #6 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 02:56 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarriedDude View Post
Everything...EVERYTHING...always comes down to the dollars.

The only way that will change -is to change the tax laws. Our elected officials have the ability to do this -but they NEVER do.
Well true.. Democrats haven't done anything about it either.. I don't hear people getting in an uproar about it.. it's not a hot topic.. had it been.. I would have voted...

Not everyone votes with their own pocketbook in mind.. at least many of the blind sheep in Christendom haven't, in church yesterday.. pounding the abortion issue, they showed a video of Hilary speaking - the whole "up to 9 months in the womb"... this plays on their emotions, the horror of it.....

Many of our Conservative Trump supporting friends are struggling financially.... I can't say Myself & husband are .. but if we lost our health care, couldn't afford it (he stayed at a lousy job for 18 yrs just for the health benefits)... if we suddenly had a Crisis.... everything we saved / built would go up in flames... it's a fear... I can't imagine the stress some are under just trying to put food on the table , if they have debilitating health issues & lousy insurance..

Quote:
Thinking that wealthy men and women will willingly change the existing tax laws to benefit ANYONE else is just insane. They won't do it -as people (pretty much all people) -will always do what they believe to be in their best interest at that moment.
all I am really after in this thread is more honesty... can these people (like Ayn Rand)... just outright admit they are Greedy.. a virtue of theirs is "Selfishness", the title of one of her books...she defends it.. applauds it... my husband brought up her name the other day.. I never heard of her..

Just not interested in listening to their endless drivel about how they care for this group of people, that group of people... it's all lies and pandering...

I think this Urban Dictionary definition of "Capitalism" pretty much sums up what is happening all over the Political landscape.. (Yeah rich democrats are taking just as much advantage of this - no doubt!)
Quote:
Capitalism

You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows. The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company. The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more. You sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States, leaving you with nine cows. No balance sheet provided with the release. The public buys your bull.

Normal guy: "Dude, your company just took a crap but you just bought that mansion! How'd you do it?"

********* CEO: "Capitalism."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarriedDude View Post
It never ceases to both amuse and offend me that both of the major parties have been able to so consistently convince working people to vote against their best interests. It is doubtful that it will go on forever...eventually a reckoning will come, as they do, with blood.
...and the Gap grows steeper every year...

.....
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post #7 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 02:58 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
Talking with a friend yesterday.. she said something I now believe is the sorry truth..

I feel Republicans IN OFFICE / in the media put on a good front, basically USING side issues like abortion, embracing those who hold more "traditional values", all the 2nd amendment talk..... but ultimately their aim is ALL about Capitalism, free market and more benefits for the RICH, Corporations, more loopholes.. I am literally shocked someone like Trump didn't have to pay taxes.. I would have never entertained something like this.. it is so outrageous to me.. and his worth is ? and this is OK somehow.. defended ???

Admittedly I do not follow Politics much ...they all seem snakes to me.. like many, a certain issue may hold more of an appeal to me over another, while obviously I am clueless to the REAL agenda at play...I believe my friend is right.

I went to church yesterday, 1st time in a year or so...thought it'd be interesting to see what is said about Trump...I can't tell you how many times I rolled my eyes...thinking "Really!@#"... the Pastor was going on -how NOW WE HAVE "HOPE" AGAIN, hallelujah, euphoria rising in the pews... Trump is the answer to our prayers...he's being used by God like the heathen leader Cyrus ... had to come home & google this...many articles like these....

Is Donald Trump a Modern-Day Cyrus? ? Charisma News .. then in the next breath he's saying something about us living honorably before God !

Have they lost their minds.... what I can't reconcile is how many Christians are turning a blind eye to obvious Greed.. defending those who perpetuate it..

Now this article I can get behind, reason is present and it's surely more Biblically sound - given these passages on Greed | Bibleinfo.com

Why Do Religious Republicans Stridently Defend Greed?



Does it really make any sense...

....
But what about the use of programmes that help ensure that there are always people who are poor and needy?

"What do those poor people need? Jobs?"

"Hell, no! Why bother to arrange jobs for them? Food stamps were good enough for their grandparents and parents and they'll be good enough for them, too!"

It's a cycle of poverty with no way out for the victims. But the oppressors can feel good about themselves. After all, they aren't going to let them starve, right?


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post #8 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:04 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
SA,

Do you think this is reasonable?

Speaking hypothetically:

I have a business with income and expenses. I'm going to use small numbers in my example to make this easy to write.

Income
Sales of sales of services...$10,000
Sale of widgets.................$ 5,000
Total Income......................$15,000 <- so I have 15K gross income for the year.

Expenses
Office rent.......................$ 2,000
Fuel and auto usage..........$ 2,000
Advertising Costs..............$ 2,000
Cost to build widgets.........$ 4,000
Total Expenses.....................$10,000

Net profit $5,000 <- that's 15K - 10K expenses

According to the tax laws, I got to deduct my expenses against the gross profit, leaving me with a real profit of only $5,000.

My company will only pay income tax on the $5,000

Does that seem reasonable to you?
What happened was that Trump apparently lost almost a billion dollars in one year.

Think of it this way.

A poker player lost $1 million dollars last year. This year he won $1 million.

Let's say he is in a 35% tax bracket.

Combining the two years, he didn't make any money at all.

Is it reasonable that he would pay $350,000 in taxes over the two years?

If that was the case, he'd be out $350,000 for the two years even though he didn't actually make any money at all.

Real Estate development is pretty much like poker. If you couldn't offset losses, I'm not sure anyone would do it.

This is one of those things that sounds bad but isn't.

(However, losing almost a billion dollars in one year doesn't say much about his business ability)

Edit: @SimplyAmorous, please read this and let me know what you think.

Last edited by Buddy400; 11-14-2016 at 03:26 PM.
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post #9 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:05 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post

.....
While true, I would not trade my life for a CEO. Most work >80 hours/week and are never home. But the same could be said for rock stars, pro athletes and movie stars, all of whom don't provide any/many jobs for others, we only look at CEO's as greedy. (and yes, greed is a big problem).
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post #10 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:06 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

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Originally Posted by MarriedDude View Post
I know you didn't ask me -but I will say -Yes, it's reasonable...you didn't even get into the depreciation...One of my favorites.

The rules are the rules -until they change - The reality (which is how My family -and most that I know) have run businesses is thus:
I am asking SA specifically for a reason.


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post #11 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:12 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post

Have they lost their minds.... what I can't reconcile is how many Christians are turning a blind eye to obvious Greed.. defending those who perpetuate it..
There have been all kinds of attempts to structure economies based on people doing the "right" thing. They didn't work. You can never get everyone to do the right thing and it ends up with those who don't "do the right thing" taking advantage of those who do.

Capitalism is the only system that, instead of trying to change human nature, uses people's self interest to motivate them to serve the public good.

Capitalism has lifted over a billion people out of grinding poverty.

I'd rather have good results than good intentions.
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post #12 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
SA,

Do you think this is reasonable?

Speaking hypothetically:

I have a business with income and expenses. I'm going to use small numbers in my example to make this easy to write.

Income
Sales of sales of services...$10,000
Sale of widgets.................$ 5,000
Total Income......................$15,000 <- so I have 15K gross income for the year.

Expenses
Office rent.......................$ 2,000
Fuel and auto usage..........$ 2,000
Advertising Costs..............$ 2,000
Cost to build widgets.........$ 4,000
Total Expenses.....................$10,000

Net profit $5,000 <- that's 15K - 10K expenses

According to the tax laws, I got to deduct my expenses against the gross profit, leaving me with a real profit of only $5,000.

My company will only pay income tax on the $5,000

Does that seem reasonable to you?
Those figures absolutely reasonable!! .. heck such a person is paying more than TRUMP did ! and making hardly any profit at all.. doesn't seem worth it even... I guess if one X this by a million.. your profit would seem astounding to me though. Not like you are struggling in any form.

I DO feel small business owners should get breaks like that.. they NEED IT - for sure.. I feel terribly bad for them -when it comes to health insurance costs ! Most can't even get off the ground..

It's this crazy rampant Corporate Greed.. it's killing small businesses...

Where my husband works.. the top CEO's are running the company into the ground.. laying everyone off, train derailments are up, they flap their mouths about "safety" - another line of BS....while giving themselves 3 - 7 million in bonus's.. last he heard they are selling most of the stock.. he calls it another Enron -not that I even understand all that... I don't... something's in the wind... no care or concern for their workers while they line their golden pockets...

I just wish the law had "caps" on the Greed... it's never going to stop..
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post #13 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:17 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
SA,

Do you think this is reasonable?

Speaking hypothetically:

I have a business with income and expenses. I'm going to use small numbers in my example to make this easy to write.

Income
Sales of sales of services...$10,000
Sale of widgets.................$ 5,000
Total Income......................$15,000 <- so I have 15K gross income for the year.

Expenses
Office rent.......................$ 2,000
Fuel and auto usage..........$ 2,000
Advertising Costs..............$ 2,000
Cost to build widgets.........$ 4,000
Total Expenses.....................$10,000

Net profit $5,000 <- that's 15K - 10K expenses

According to the tax laws, I got to deduct my expenses against the gross profit, leaving me with a real profit of only $5,000.

My company will only pay income tax on the $5,000

Does that seem reasonable to you?
Net operating losses applied to taxes is fair for a large number of cases especially small businesses like this example is tailored towards.

What is not fair is the ability of S Corporations, Trusts and Limited partnerships to take business losses and transfer them to someone with limited liability towards the enterprise. This allows reasonable losses to be magnified to shift towards canceling personal tax liability. It should really be restricted to the companies themselves and should not be transferable toward personal returns past a certain point. This is what is unfair.

I am not a farmer but some twenty five years ago I owned interest in a company which was categorized as farming for tax purposes. A farmer has the ability to average income over a certain number of years to smooth out the boom/ bust income from crops. This is fair. However my ownership and the vehicle that allowed it granted me a non-farmer the ability to income average my entire return for five years. This is not fair but it is a loophole in a rule trying to be fair over extended to others. It would have been fair to limit the income averaging to that portion of the investment but at the time the law was not specific.

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post #14 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:18 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post

.....
I am always very curious why similar graphs for Entertainer to Worker or Sports Star to Worker pay ratios don;t make the rounds.

At least a CEO could potentially be worth their pay.

Ben and Jerry's tried to limit their CEO's pay.

They couldn't do it.

Why would someone accept less pay than others were willing to pay them? Would you? I wouldn't.
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post #15 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:23 PM
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Re: Struggling with my so called "Conservative" stance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by meson View Post
What is not fair is the ability of S Corporations, Trusts and Limited partnerships to take business losses and transfer them to someone with limited liability towards the enterprise. This allows reasonable losses to be magnified to shift towards canceling personal tax liability. It should really be restricted to the companies themselves and should not be transferable toward personal returns past a certain point. This is what is unfair.

I am not a farmer but some twenty five years ago I owned interest in a company which was categorized as farming for tax purposes. A farmer has the ability to average income over a certain number of years to smooth out the boom/ bust income from crops. This is fair. However my ownership and the vehicle that allowed it granted me a non-farmer the ability to income average my entire return for five years. This is not fair but it is a loophole in a rule trying to be fair over extended to others. It would have been fair to limit the income averaging to that portion of the investment but at the time the law was not specific.
That's probably reasonable (but, I've heard good defenses of carried interest as well).

But before I'd propose getting rid of it, I'd want to know why the rule exists in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipe...rton%27s_fence

Democrats had 8 years of the White House (including 2 years with a Democratic House and a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate) and didn't change this, so let the other team give it a go.
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