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post #211 of 225 (permalink) Old 11-30-2016, 02:32 PM
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Re: Bannon

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Ah, it's different because he's not white. There is truly nothing like the racism of low expectations. If this were a white man, as a member of a white nationalist association, we wouldn't be discussing whether or not he is racist. He would be.

My case is made. You don't engage with the points. Again, all you say is "nuh-uh". Look to your own comments below. You have no real evidence, but these white people must be racist. Because they're white.
Wrong. That's not at all what I said, and once again you have completely turned what I said into the straw man of saying "nuh uh".

Since you obviously really do not want to engage in any meaningful way, I'll leave you with this parting thought:

What I said was advocating for the disadvantaged is a very different thing than advocating for those who already have all of the advantages. This is not at all the same as saying "it's different because of skin colour." And what I said was that Trump and Bannon have a long history of racism. This is not at all the same as saying that someone is racist because they are white.

Adios senor.

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post #212 of 225 (permalink) Old 11-30-2016, 07:53 PM
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Re: Bannon

Wild Jade, I'm not white and I'd be the first to call out whites on racism. However, I like to be fair in my accusations, and even I can't see how Trump or Bannon are racist/supremist - no one as of yet has posted proof, only biased media articles that fling around the accusations without backing. Also nationalism doesn't automatically mean racist/supremist, there are a ton of non-white nationalists as well worldwide.

As Kivlor said:
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Again, anti-illegal-immigrant =/= white nationalist / racist
I'm also anti-illegal immigration, people work hard to get their visas, but why should these folks how get on boats or jump the fence just get a free pass? Not to mention I too would like to know that my government has my home's borders secured.

Now if you start to talk about racial screening on immigration then ok, we have something to talk about, but the only screening mentioned by Trump or Bannon is due to the threat of Islamic fundamentalism which is understandable. That's only trying to protect one's borders from a very militant religion. I reckon it's still going to be futile as long as Islam exists and I laugh at Trump thinking it would work to protect US citizens from terrorism, but at least he's trying to do something.
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post #213 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 04:51 AM
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Re: Bannon

MODERATOR NOTE: Any claims that such and such a person are racist or are guilty of any other illegal act/s must cite a credible source or risk being deleted without further notice.

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post #214 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 05:46 AM
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Re: Bannon

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MODERATOR NOTE: Any claims that such and such a person are racist or are guilty of any other illegal act/s must cite a credible source or risk being deleted without further notice.
1. What's a credible source? Who decides that?

2. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck isn't valid reasoning? That is to say basic deductive reasoning is out? Circumstantial evidence is not allowed? For someone to be called an X they have to say "I am an X?" That certainly simplifies things.

3. The same applies to claiming that someone is a socialist, a communist, anti-American, a felon, a traitor, etc.?
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post #215 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 07:12 AM
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Re: Bannon

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I'm also anti-illegal immigration, people work hard to get their visas, but why should these folks how get on boats or jump the fence just get a free pass? Not to mention I too would like to know that my government has my home's borders secured.

.
Trump is not anti- *illegal* immigrant, he is anti-immigrant. Period. As for my credible source, I cite the video and materials that Kivlor has posted in defence of his position. Trump has made it clear where he stands on immigration, on Mexico (tho whole country, not just the illegal immigrants, or even the immigrants for that matter), on *all* of Islam (not just the fundamentalism). And so on.

And the big defense of him is "oh no, he can't really be racist because Islam and Mexico are not races." An answer which to my mind entirely misses the point.
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post #216 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 07:14 AM
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Re: Bannon

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1. What's a credible source? Who decides that?

2. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck isn't valid reasoning? That is to say basic deductive reasoning is out? Circumstantial evidence is not allowed? For someone to be called an X they have to say "I am an X?" That certainly simplifies things.

3. The same applies to claiming that someone is a socialist, a communist, anti-American, a felon, a traitor, etc.?
Clearly it isn't sufficient to observe a consistent pattern of behavior or draw any conclusions from a very public election platform. I wonder if there's a peer-reviewed article on the topic. Do you think that will be taken as a credible source?

ETA: Oh, look at that. Charleston Law Review. Is this sufficiently credible?

Huber, L. P. (2016). " MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!": DONALD TRUMP, RACIST NATIVISM AND THE VIRULENT ADHERENCE TO WHITE SUPREMACY AMID US DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGE. Charleston L. Rev., 10, 215-475.

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post #217 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 07:26 AM
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Re: Bannon

MODERATOR NOTE:

This is getting off topic.

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post #218 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 08:11 AM
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Re: Bannon

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Originally Posted by wild jade View Post
Trump is not anti- *illegal* immigrant, he is anti-immigrant. Period. As for my credible source, I cite the video and materials that Kivlor has posted in defence of his position. Trump has made it clear where he stands on immigration, on Mexico (tho whole country, not just the illegal immigrants, or even the immigrants for that matter), on *all* of Islam (not just the fundamentalism). And so on.

Jade, you're making your closing arguments before you make your case. I likely haven't heard everything Trump has said about immigrants but from what I've heard, I cannot conclude he's anti-immigrant because he seeks to control the flow of people entering the country without authorization. Can you say with any certainty that his position on immigration wouldn't be the same if the majority of illegal immigrants were eastern Europeans?
For clarification on your position, do you believe anyone favoring vetting of immigrants and securing the borders are "anti-immigrant"?

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #219 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 08:12 AM
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Re: Bannon

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Originally Posted by wild jade View Post
Trump is not anti- *illegal* immigrant, he is anti-immigrant. Period. As for my credible source, I cite the video and materials that Kivlor has posted in defence of his position. Trump has made it clear where he stands on immigration, on Mexico (tho whole country, not just the illegal immigrants, or even the immigrants for that matter), on *all* of Islam (not just the fundamentalism). And so on.

And the big defense of him is "oh no, he can't really be racist because Islam and Mexico are not races." An answer which to my mind entirely misses the point.
Please quote, because from what I've seen on this thread, all the so-called videos that "prove" Trump is a racist instead proves to me how messed up the media truly is, cutting and editing his speeches to the point it conveys a completely different message. I'm not the only one who is asking for FULL and IN CONTEXT proof of his racism.

Bannon as well WTF! Why the heck hasn't Briedbart sued for defamation?
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post #220 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 08:25 AM
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Re: Bannon

I have seen claims that Breitbart is anti-Semitic.

Except that Andrew Breitbart the founder of the publication was Jewish.

Would Breitbart.com have employed Steve Bannon if he was really anti-Semitic?

That seems to be very, very unlikely to be honest.


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post #221 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 10:20 AM
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Re: Bannon

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Originally Posted by wild jade View Post
Wrong. That's not at all what I said, and once again you have completely turned what I said into the straw man of saying "nuh uh".

Since you obviously really do not want to engage in any meaningful way, I'll leave you with this parting thought:

What I said was advocating for the disadvantaged is a very different thing than advocating for those who already have all of the advantages. This is not at all the same as saying "it's different because of skin colour." And what I said was that Trump and Bannon have a long history of racism. This is not at all the same as saying that someone is racist because they are white.

Adios senor.
If you think that being "disadvantaged" is an excuse for racism, or that it somehow makes a person engaged in racist activities / espousing racist ideals / joining racist organization magically not a racist, you and I disagree. You appear to be holding 2 irreconcilable positions. Or you're completely changing the definition of racism to "only white people" / "only people with power" which we see commonly on the left.

The problem here is that if it's only white people, that is inherently a racist position per the common parlance and dictionary definition of the term. If it is only white people, we are saying that minorities are beneath us, and can't be expected to overcome race, only white people are that self-aware and that competent. And that is in fact a very condescending, racist position to have.

If it is only people with power, then suddenly we have to question if the common poor white person can be racist. Because he/she has no power, and thus cannot be racist. Except, a person's power / wealth / influence doesn't preclude them from having racist views or taking racist actions. In fact, the same people pushing this idea have no problem referring to those poor rural white americans as being racist, xenophobic, islamophobic, etc rascals clinging to their God and their guns. So, then you have to change this entire assumption and painting of America, and even probably of many white nationalists who may be poor and have no power.

So... we find ourselves back at the current textbook definition of racism, which in fact does seem to be the best definition we can supply. Now, we take this definition, and apply it to the "Trump University" situation, which I have already described in detail. We then apply the law for recusal, which I have provided, and we find that Trump is correct and the judge in fact should recuse himself.

Now, we can use this same definition of racism, to apply to the question of Trump, of Bannon, and of any of Trump's potential picks for cabinet (or Czar/adviser) and look at the evidence. What we have is no real evidence for Bannon, and for Trump, the best argument so far has been the Judge Curiel accusation, which we have now proven to be incorrect, leaving us with the conclusion that there is no current evidence these people are racist. (Which doesn't mean they aren't, but that it would be remiss of us to judge them as such without evidence, so we find them not-guilty.)

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #222 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 10:21 AM
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Re: Bannon

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I have seen claims that Breitbart is anti-Semitic.

Except that Andrew Breitbart the founder of the publication was Jewish.

Would Breitbart.com have employed Steve Bannon if he was really anti-Semitic?

That seems to be very, very unlikely to be honest.
That's dangerous reasoning. Without knowing Andrew Breitbart or interviewing him how would you know what his motivations were?

As they say, politics makes strange bedfellows. People that you wouldn't expect to work together will often unite against a common enemy.
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post #223 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 10:36 AM
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Re: Bannon

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That's dangerous reasoning. Without knowing Andrew Breitbart or interviewing him how would you know what his motivations were?

As they say, politics makes strange bedfellows. People that you wouldn't expect to work together will often unite against a common enemy.
Internalized Antisemitism!! Guilty until innocent!! "It's time to CONFESS"

You people are always full of entertaining ideas.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #224 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 11:25 AM
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Re: Bannon

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Internalized Antisemitism!! Guilty until innocent!! "It's time to CONFESS"

You people are always full of entertaining ideas.
You're betrayed by your stereotypes. Not every Jew is observant or even down with the Jewish cause. For some it's just not that important in the same way that the Bible has no importance to many Christians.

A Jewish acquaintance of mine introduced me to Wendy's Baconator sandwich (he said "bacon is the most awesome food ever"), when it came out which I thought was pretty funny at first, but after I skipped communion for four years running I realized that he and I weren't that different. Neither of us identify with our birth religions much. He's American born and has no connection to Israel or his Jewishness.

So if you have some great knowledge of Breitbart's dedication to all things Jewish and Israeli I'd like to hear it.
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post #225 of 225 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 11:44 AM
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Re: Bannon

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You're betrayed by your stereotypes. Not every Jew is observant or even down with the Jewish cause. For some it's just not that important in the same way that the Bible has no importance to many Christians.

A Jewish acquaintance of mine introduced me to Wendy's Baconator sandwich (he said "bacon is the most awesome food ever"), when it came out which I thought was pretty funny at first, but after I skipped communion for four years running I realized that he and I weren't that different. Neither of us identify with our birth religions much. He's American born and has no connection to Israel or his Jewishness.

So if you have some great knowledge of Breitbart's dedication to all things Jewish and Israeli I'd like to hear it.
Perhaps you are unaware, but Reform Judaism dispensed with the dietary laws in the 1800's. Along with a ton of other things, like purity requirements, and marriage laws for rabbis and even considered civil divorce good enough to satisfy religious requirements. Orthodox and Hasidic Jews don't accept these changes. Reconstructionists and many other jewish movements do not require that Kosher be kept.

Comparing jews who don't keep kosher--something permitted in many forms of Judaism--with Jews who are antisemitic is just odd. It would be like saying I know this Christian (not necessarily Catholic) who doesn't go to Confession, therefore this other Christian potentially hates all Christians. The logic doesn't follow.

Again. I find you funny. The more we discuss these things, the more hoops you have to create and subsequently jump through to maintain your predetermined conclusions. Sure it's possible. But Occam's Razor would say no.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
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For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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