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post #16 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 02:23 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

Do you think others' fears are real or justified? I read from a wide variety of sources and I am still worried. I think the more you know, the more reasons there are to be concerned and that is partially informed by what I see of my countrymen every day. I think there are well founded reasons to be very concerned. I don't think this is business as usual. I think figuring this out starts with acknowledging the concerns and fears of others as legitimate, even if we don't perceive them ourselves. I do think that ultimately, an election won't solve problems. If Trump is doing something you don't like- organize and do something about it! Voting is never enough. Don't listen to people ridicule you for protesting or being engaged etc. Get to know your reps. Write them. Call them regularly. Doing these things will help you get connected and feel more in control over what is yours to control.

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post #17 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 02:24 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Climate change is global, yes, but it will affect more countries than others. It's been theorized (I forget by whom but I will go back and cite my sources upon request) that if the US succumbs to famine due to the Midwest becoming unsuitably arid, Canada may be very prosperous, its once inclement cold being softened and its general climate taking on a more agreeable form. Basically, Canada would become the bread basket of the world because it would be warm enough for crops, and the southern US would become a desert.
Oh my, were do you get your information from? The US is not going to become a desert. I agree humans have an affect on climate. The jury is still out concerning just how much we humans have on the climate and some of these climate changes are the natural progression of the earth.

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post #18 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 02:29 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
Yep.
What makes you think that we are going to have a massive famine?

Did you know that food has never been cheaper in human history than it is in the West today? (And that it would actually be significantly cheaper than now if we got rid of the government subsidized and mandated ethanol market?)

Did you know that we use less farmland and produce way more food than ever before?

I think that if we talk this out, there are many people here at TAM who can help alleviate your fears.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #19 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 02:53 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
Climate change is global, yes, but it will affect more countries than others. It's been theorized (I forget by whom but I will go back and cite my sources upon request) that if the US succumbs to famine due to the Midwest becoming unsuitably arid, Canada may be very prosperous, its once inclement cold being softened and its general climate taking on a more agreeable form. Basically, Canada would become the bread basket of the world because it would be warm enough for crops, and the southern US would become a desert.
I think that's a lot of "if's" to hang your hat on.

I live here in the Midwest, and I'll be the first to admit to water concerns. But we would have already solved them if the EPA didn't exist. I know. I've tried. Perhaps less government interference is what you should be considering? Eventually, if it gets bad enough, we'll fix it, whether they like it or not.

Don't let the fear-mongers control your thoughts. When I start to worry about things, I do this:

Look at your life, and everything you have. All the amazing things you can buy. The vehicles that take us wherever we want to go. The phones that we carry in our pockets that can call the other side of the world, and allow you to see someone in Africa talk to you in real time. Air conditioning. Clean water available at the twist of a knob. Vaccines for viruses and cures for infections. This unbelievable invention we are communicating with each other over, right now, which houses the entirety of the intellectual wealth of all humanity, and places it at the fingertips of every single American adult.

Now... think about what it was like for your ancestors to live without these things. To toil all day to barely succeed at subsistence farming. To not have clean water. Life is getting better by the day, not worse. And if you've got the courage and willpower to seize the day, you can help be a part of ensuring your children have it better than you did, just like all of our ancestors have done, leading up to this moment, this conversation...

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #20 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 03:01 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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I think that's a lot of "if's" to hang your hat on.

I live here in the Midwest, and I'll be the first to admit to water concerns. But we would have already solved them if the EPA didn't exist. I know. I've tried.
Can you elaborate on that? How would the disbanding of an agency designed to make sure businesses don't trample on the planet too roughly help us solve our incoming environmental crises?

Also, thinking about my luxurious life as compared to my great-great grandfather's life of agony and toil actually makes me more nervous, as I truly believe there's a very good chance that all that luxury will be gone and all that toil will be our new reality within a couple decades.

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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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What makes you think that we are going to have a massive famine?

Did you know that food has never been cheaper in human history than it is in the West today? (And that it would actually be significantly cheaper than now if we got rid of the government subsidized and mandated ethanol market?)

Did you know that we use less farmland and produce way more food than ever before?

I think that if we talk this out, there are many people here at TAM who can help alleviate your fears.
That's interesting and comforting to hear. If the Midwest doesn't get too hot to support crops, we'll be fine. If it does... well, I'll have to develop a taste for cactus, won't I?

That said, I dislike ethanol too. Solar and wind are good options, but rather inefficient. Nuclear is VERY efficient, and much much safer than it was 20 years ago, but people are afraid of nuclear. Dunno why. My father goes on business trips twice a month to oversee the inner workings of nuclear power plants. He's been inside an operating nuclear plant during an earthquake. He's 65 now and has never had cancer.

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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 03:09 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
That's interesting and comforting to hear. If the Midwest doesn't get too hot to support crops, we'll be fine. If it does... well, I'll have to develop a taste for cactus, won't I?

That said, I dislike ethanol too. Solar and wind are good options, but rather inefficient. Nuclear is VERY efficient, and much much safer than it was 20 years ago, but people are afraid of nuclear. Dunno why. My father goes on business trips twice a month to oversee the inner workings of nuclear power plants. He's been inside an operating nuclear plant during an earthquake. He's 65 now and has never had cancer.
I'd certainly love to see more nuclear energy. Cheaper. Cleaner. More efficient. Through use of newer reactor models it can become darn close to self-sustaining as an energy source. (You still need a supply, but there are ways to re-enrich the waste, and to use the resulting new elements as well)

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 03:18 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
I know I haven't posted in awhile, and in part it's due to my anxiety over the political situation that has currently taken over the US. I'm very much a progressive, and though I certainly wasn't a fan of Hillary, I bit my tongue and voted for her, because she's better than the demagogue we've currently got. And now we've got a demagogue in the White House, a Republican house, a Republican Senate, and potentially anywhere between one and three new Republican Supreme Court members. God save us.

Between Trump's destructive climate policies (placing a climate change denier in charge of the EPA springs immediately to mind) and the fact that he was literally endorsed by the KKK, I genuinely believe this might be the end of the world. Or, alright, the start of the end of the world. Will we even have a habitable planet by the time I'm 80? Perhaps not, considering our new president's climate policies.

For 2 weeks now I have been unbearably anxious. Sedatives do little. For the first week post-election I didn't do anything but cry. I took time off from school and I laid in my bed with several handkerchiefs and several boxes of tissues and bawled almost constantly. The second week I've been floating somewhere in between panic and grim acceptance. "Oh God help us this is the end of society what do we do?!!" or "Well... I'm gonna die soon. Pity, that." have been my two dominant trains of thought. Over the last few days I've been able to relax a little bit and enjoy life to some degree, but the thought is always in the back of my mind that we've elected Orange Hitler to run our country, and now there are groups openly talking about whether Jews are human.

As usual, the only constant in my life has been my dear and beloved husband. He's done his best to hold me when I cry, promise me that he'll (somehow) protect us from whatever is coming our way, and make sure I keep a basic level of functioning (eating, sleeping, etc). He's even done his best to navigate smoothly around my changing and chaotic biological schedule. Rather than being upset that I ate his chicken, for example, he told me he was just glad I was still eating. He's been an absolute hero. Thank the stars for good men who love us.

Anyway, if there are any Democrats or progressives reading this, what's your take? Is this the moment that we'll look back on years from now and say, "Yep. This was the catalyst for WWIII and the moment we set our Earth onto a downward spiral of climate chaos."?

My therapist told me yesterday to post my political worries to a forum with both sides of our political spectrum. Here seemed like a good place, as good as any. It's not nearly totally liberal like Reddit, nor is it totally progressive like Tumblr. So I'll turn to you. Are you afraid? If you are, what have you done to mitigate your fears somewhat? Do you have a safety plan for when it all goes down? If you're not afraid, why not? Please tell me. I could really do with a little bit of hope right now.
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 03:24 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
As I said before, I fear famine, natural disasters, war, being impoverished, being pushed out of our home... those things.
Trump couldn't make his airline, vodka, steaks or magazine work (along with numerous other ventures and two marriages) but now he can cause world disasters of biblical proportion?
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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 03:58 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
Can you elaborate on that? How would the disbanding of an agency designed to make sure businesses don't trample on the planet too roughly help us solve our incoming environmental crises?

Also, thinking about my luxurious life as compared to my great-great grandfather's life of agony and toil actually makes me more nervous, as I truly believe there's a very good chance that all that luxury will be gone and all that toil will be our new reality within a couple decades.
Sorry, I missed this somehow.

I'll give an example of the EPA making things worse from my experience, regarding the topic you are concerned with. The EPA regularly prevents the creation of new reservoirs to increase water supplies. My father and I tried to develop one near our hometown, because we are over-using the aquifer beneath us, and this would reduce the stress from human usage in our area. It would also have many other benefits. The EPA was not receptive to any new reservoir being developed. It might displace some crickets or something.

Sometimes, when you act with the best of intentions, but don't consider the consequences of your actions, you make things worse. This is a good example. In the future, if a massive drought happens, it is going to cause unbelievable human displacement, and those humans are going to trample the environment around them in order to survive. And trust me, if it comes down to keeping your kids alive or following an EPA mandate, that EPA mandate will burn. An "emergency" will be much worse in its effects than working in stages now to avert such a problem. An ounce of prevention can be worth a pound of cure.

The mistake is believing that the EPA does anything to "help us solve our incoming environmental mess". Heck look at that gold mine mess they created. It's quite obvious that they were being reckless and negligent. And why wouldn't they be? It's not like they'll be held personally accountable if they screw up. It's not like their budget will get sliced and their manpower reduced over this. If anything, it'll result in more money, more manpower, and larger jurisdictions.


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 04:19 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
Yes, as open and welcome as I can be. Spilling one's guts on a public forum is like standing in the middle of an arena and speaking, and waiting for audience members to come up and either hug you or slap you. I welcome the hugs, and I've braced myself for the blows.
How about if I just stand next to you and smile with you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
I think they could all plausibly happen. For example, I fear starvation due to lack of food due to climate-change-induced drought due to Trump's anti-climate policies. Yes, it's a ways off, but it could happen. Other things I fear are widespread poverty and warfare, also due to said policies and climate change.
We give ourselves too much credit in knowing what others will do. We are not fortune tellers and too often we fill in the blanks we don't know or guess at with negativity. We think we know and understand climates, and even worse, believe that one man can tip it away into hazard and oblivion. We observe climates and how they are shaping in the last decade, century, millennia, how far back can we go and still believe we suddenly know all the answers... yet I hear no international outcry against such consumerism except led by those who consume the most.

What false gods (or demons) shall we create next... I hear so many claiming their happiness was horribly ended by one election, the tears, the anger, the gnashing of teeth... literally... what strength did their happiness truly carry I wonder.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
I would like to know what the solutions are. I feel quite helpless at present. My husband is British so the only solution I've found might be in fleeing to England... but from the news I've read, England isn't faring too terribly much better at the moment.
Our present solution is not found in telling others what they should do... there is a proverb "Don’t use a lot where a little will do", I am going to mention again that those telling us to conserve do little to reduce their footprint while doing so... most unmindful. The movement must start from within to end the "affluenza" we serve on ourselves.

Flee... from ourselves? That may end up as a treadmill of recurring challenges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
Honestly, all I hope for tomorrow and the other tomorrows after it is to keep the life I have now- the life I fear losing. If I do end up losing my home, my country, or my way of life in general, perhaps I may find a way to carry on, although right now, from my current vantage point, summoning the will to live through a natural disaster or a famine seems all but impossible.
You will lose this life one day... this is simply to be. Nothing is static, our country has changed four noticeable times that I can see in my short time here, I have lived in dozens of homes, I have changed thousands of ways... how we live in the present is so much more important paying attention not to the doors that close, but the ones that open should we try them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
Thank you for your input.
You are most welcome...the worry of tomorrow's troubles are an erosion that removes today's peace.

Last edited by Emerging Buddhist; 11-23-2016 at 05:07 PM. Reason: Mindful quote brackets added...
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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 04:25 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
I know I haven't posted in awhile, and in part it's due to my anxiety over the political situation that has currently taken over the US. I'm very much a progressive, and though I certainly wasn't a fan of Hillary, I bit my tongue and voted for her, because she's better than the demagogue we've currently got. And now we've got a demagogue in the White House, a Republican house, a Republican Senate, and potentially anywhere between one and three new Republican Supreme Court members. God save us.

Between Trump's destructive climate policies (placing a climate change denier in charge of the EPA springs immediately to mind) and the fact that he was literally endorsed by the KKK, I genuinely believe this might be the end of the world. Or, alright, the start of the end of the world. Will we even have a habitable planet by the time I'm 80? Perhaps not, considering our new president's climate policies.

For 2 weeks now I have been unbearably anxious. Sedatives do little. For the first week post-election I didn't do anything but cry. I took time off from school and I laid in my bed with several handkerchiefs and several boxes of tissues and bawled almost constantly. The second week I've been floating somewhere in between panic and grim acceptance. "Oh God help us this is the end of society what do we do?!!" or "Well... I'm gonna die soon. Pity, that." have been my two dominant trains of thought. Over the last few days I've been able to relax a little bit and enjoy life to some degree, but the thought is always in the back of my mind that we've elected Orange Hitler to run our country, and now there are groups openly talking about whether Jews are human.

As usual, the only constant in my life has been my dear and beloved husband. He's done his best to hold me when I cry, promise me that he'll (somehow) protect us from whatever is coming our way, and make sure I keep a basic level of functioning (eating, sleeping, etc). He's even done his best to navigate smoothly around my changing and chaotic biological schedule. Rather than being upset that I ate his chicken, for example, he told me he was just glad I was still eating. He's been an absolute hero. Thank the stars for good men who love us.

Anyway, if there are any Democrats or progressives reading this, what's your take? Is this the moment that we'll look back on years from now and say, "Yep. This was the catalyst for WWIII and the moment we set our Earth onto a downward spiral of climate chaos."?

My therapist told me yesterday to post my political worries to a forum with both sides of our political spectrum. Here seemed like a good place, as good as any. It's not nearly totally liberal like Reddit, nor is it totally progressive like Tumblr. So I'll turn to you. Are you afraid? If you are, what have you done to mitigate your fears somewhat? Do you have a safety plan for when it all goes down? If you're not afraid, why not? Please tell me. I could really do with a little bit of hope right now.
@EllaSuaveterre, I am a progressive, but that's in British terms, so I am not quite a fit in US politics.

But! I am not convinced that Hillary Clinton was a real progressive.

And not all people of the left consider climate change to be a valid construct.

One of the leading voices against Climate Change in the UK is the left wing older brother of Jeremy Corbyn, Piers Corbyn, who runs a weather forecasting bureau in Britain.

This is his website Welcome

Piers holds a BSc in Physics, having been interested in weather observation and recording since the age of 5, even building his own weather observatory equipment.

He also hold an MSc in Astrophysics.

And he spent several years as a political activist on the left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_Ae4DES9z8

https://weatheraction.wordpress.com/.../mini-ice-age/

This is his -left wing- take on the win of Donald Trump https://weatheraction.wordpress.com/

It looks like he thinks you do not have to worry at all about Donald Trump being elected.

And Piers is so left wing he makes Hillary look like a Conservative!


So, please do not worry. It'll be OK.

http://mygeneralblog1.blogspot.co.uk
http://mygeneralblog1.blogspot.co.uk...-cheaters.html (Be afraid UK cheaters! CheaterVille has come to the UK!

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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 05:07 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

First, as a conservative I would say this is how a bunch of people felt when Obama became president. And we are still here after 8 years. People were convened that he would cause crazy inflation that would destroy our economy much like the Vymar Republic.

Secondly, if climate change is so bad, why have so many Climate Change scientists been been caught changing data to fit their predictions. And if you look into the people pushing Cap and Trade, they will get rich off of it. We are in a period of cooling now, not heating.
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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 05:13 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Can you elaborate on that? How would the disbanding of an agency designed to make sure businesses don't trample on the planet too roughly help us solve our incoming environmental crises?
The EPA has been doing some pretty bad things. Here's what they did out west here where I live. They killed one of our major rivers. And do you know what happened? Nothing. No one at the EPA was disciplined, not one too responsibility. They did nothing to clean it up or help all the people who were affected by it either. And this is only one place where they have done more damage than good.

The EPA accidentally ripped a hole in a toxic mine in Colorado — it ruined a river and people are furious
http://www.businessinsider.com/epa-c...aster-2015-8\\

New Mexico Will Sue EPA For Polluting A River With Mine Waste
New Mexico Sue EPA For Polluting River With Mine Waste | The Daily Caller



Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
Also, thinking about my luxurious life as compared to my great-great grandfather's life of agony and toil actually makes me more nervous, as I truly believe there's a very good chance that all that luxury will be gone and all that toil will be our new reality within a couple decades.
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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 05:15 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Every solid object has a harmonic frequency at which it will vibrate when excited by another separate and outside force.

In the human body the only thing that is hard enough and large enough to synchronize with an outside vibration, such as speech, is the skull.

If I say what I think and what I feel, a glass head and mind will "sing" and explode.

That said, I am going silent on this thread.
I actually thought you'd come back... where's your spunk!
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