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post #31 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 05:41 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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That's interesting and comforting to hear. If the Midwest doesn't get too hot to support crops, we'll be fine. If it does... well, I'll have to develop a taste for cactus, won't I?

That said, I dislike ethanol too. Solar and wind are good options, but rather inefficient. Nuclear is VERY efficient, and much much safer than it was 20 years ago, but people are afraid of nuclear. Dunno why. My father goes on business trips twice a month to oversee the inner workings of nuclear power plants. He's been inside an operating nuclear plant during an earthquake. He's 65 now and has never had cancer.
When the nuclear fuel is spent in those plants, that fuel has to be stored somewhere, for something like 10,000 years. I worked for years on a project that was storing nuclear waste underground. The part of the project that I worked on was studying the damage that was being done to the earth by the storage facility. There are so many problems with it that the public would be shocked. The canisters leak. The leaking material travels into the underground water table. The earth is not just one big rock. It's a series of plates, they shift, and when they do it causes all kinds of problems with waste stored underground.

Look at what happened in Japan's nuclear power plant after the tsunami. That thing is still contaminating the earth and sea.

Solar power farms do things like fry birds in mid air. The wind farms just chop birds and bats up by the thousands.

Most forms of power production, if not all, have serious problems. The best we can do is to manage those problems.


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post #32 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 06:00 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

EllaSuaveterre,

Government agencies are only as good as the science and the people who run them.

I'll give you two examples.

Years ago, men of science thought that in order to preserve our forests they had to stop all forests fires. So our government mandated that. And our Forest Service made it happen. No forest fires were allowed.

Well, guess what happened. As trees and other plants died, they just piled up on the forest floors... the forests started to look dead. Then slowly, one by one the inevitable happened. The forests in the Western USA have been catching fire. We have had horrific forest fires that have destroyed millions of acres of old growth forest.

These fires have killed millions of wildlife animals. The smoke in the air out here in the West has been hard to breath when these fires happen. I live quite a distance from most of them. But the smoke from them hung in our air for weeks with many of the fires.

Why did the fires happen? Because left to nature, small forest fires happen fairly often. The fires are low heat and burn off the small amount of dead wood fuel. This nourishes the living trees and plants; and it kills things like funguses, insect infestations, etc.

But instead, the oh-so-smart men of science prevented the low-heat forest fires that nature uses to manicure the forests. So when a fire did happen, either my lightening, combustion of rotten material or by man, the fires now had a LOT of fuel. So they burned hot. They burned so hot that they burned down the living trees and most of the wildlife. They sterilized the forest earth to the point that new plants cannot grow.

That is the fault of men who thought that their science was better than mother nature. Our government is responsible for the destruction of millions of acres of old growth forest. Yet no one talks about it. Our government has not reprimanded anyone for this.

The EPA has been a lot like that. They do a lot of good. And they do a lot of bad because of the arrogance of those who think that no one has the right to question their 'science',

We could go on about the EPA's destruction of millions of acres of farm land in California to save a fish that is not even indigenous. The fish is not even in danger of extinction. They exist in many places all over the world. But the EPA decided to withhold water from farmers who grow our food to save a small, non-indigenous fish. Thousands of people lost their livelihood and now live in poverty and on handouts because of this.

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post #33 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 06:29 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

@EllaSuaveterre,

I lost my progressive status, but I'm still a registered Democrat. I'm libertarian on social issues, moderately conservative on guns and immigration, moderately liberal on environmental issues, pretty dead center on fiscal policy. I voted for Clinton.

Anyway, read this and let me know what you think.

You Are Still Crying Wolf | Slate Star Codex

And don't believe anybody who tells you the end is coming unless they are actively engaged in doomsday prep. I've seen people get taken in and repeat hysterical predictions. Death squads. Totalitarianism. Germany 1933. Blah blah blah. Ask them if they recommend buying a gun. If they don't, then they are consciously or subconsciously exaggerating for effect. These are good people who have bought into a well-orchestrated marketing campaign. I've just about had it with the dogmatic party organizations.

There are some real concerns. If you're worried about people emulating the president president grabbing then I recommend seeing what self-defence preparations are available to you. If you're concerned about Trump-inspired bias incidents, anti-racist groups are experiencing a renaissance now.

My wife texted asking me if I was sitting down, and I knew what was coming next.

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post #34 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 06:49 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Originally Posted by EllaSuaveterre View Post
but the thought is always in the back of my mind that we've elected Orange Hitler to run our country, and now there are groups openly talking about whether Jews are human.
"Another group the left has been desperate to link to Trump is the so-called “alt-right,” a faction of the right you’d never heard of before, but liberals would have you believe*is*taking over the Republican Party. The alt-right has been in the news again after The Atlantic posted a video from a speech at the opening of a new alt-right think tank in Washington, D.C., the National Policy Institute. The statements made by the speaker and founder of the think tank, Richard Spencer, are indefensible. He attacked Jews, quoted from Nazi propaganda in German, and you can see people in the audience giving a Hitler salute many times during his speech.

Liberals are citing this as evidence that racism is alive and well in America. However, you might say it’s actually pointing to just the opposite. The event in question managed to attract about 100-150 people… while earlier this year BronyCon (a conference for grown men who watch the children’s show My Little Pony) attracted nearly 8,000 attendees. Speaking of racism and anti-semitism, where was the liberal media when hundreds to thousands of protestors in Chicago held a rally last year calling for a Third Intifada against the State of Israel? It’s almost as if they only cared about this story because in this case, the racists supported Trump."

"President-elect Donald Trump disavowed an alt-right conference in Washington, D.C. over the weekend led by Richard Spencer that celebrated the election of Donald Trump.

Asked directly about the event that was widely covered by the mainstream media, Trump replied, “I condemn them. I disavow, and I condemn.”

Trump clarifies view on 'alt-right' with TWO WORDS... - Allen B. West - AllenBWest.com

Could you please explain why you think that Trump is "orange Hitler"?

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post #35 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 08:09 PM
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Cool Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

Being placed in the unenviable position of now being fully responsible for any kind of an economic disaster, it will summarily be the GOP's turn to lose seats in both legislative houses, as well as governorships!

The GOP would have no one else to blame other than themselves!

I cannot help but believe that it's cyclical in nature!

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post #36 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 09:23 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

Just focus on the world that you want to build, embody the values that you wish to promote, and fight for the causes that you believe in with whatever skills and time you are able to do so. That way, whatever happens, you can say "at least I tried, and put forward my best effort.

Another strategy is to always be open to developing your skill set and resourcefulness. Anxiety is understandable, but the more equipped you are and feel about a situation, the more you can contribute.
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post #37 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 09:30 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Did you know that food has never been cheaper in human history than it is in the West today? (And that it would actually be significantly cheaper than now if we got rid of the government subsidized and mandated ethanol market?)

Did you know that we use less farmland and produce way more food than ever before?

.
Yes, thank goodness for all those migrant workers and illegal immigrants who are willing to work for much less than minimum wage, in often very toxic environments, with no health care support or other benefits, and for only those very short periods of the year when their labour is needed. Whatever would we do without them?

It is no doubt quite possible, to grow more food on less acreage with certain sorts of farming practices. But in most cases, famine is an issue of distribution not of quantity. Even in those areas most prone to drought, this can be true. And for those other instances, where blight or drought wiped out all food, the problem was largely intensive agriculture with mono crops.

A better focus for solving famine problems is to reconsider both distribution systems as well as the reliance on large-scale mass farms.
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post #38 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 10:59 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Yes, thank goodness for all those migrant workers and illegal immigrants who are willing to work for much less than minimum wage, in often very toxic environments, with no health care support or other benefits, and for only those very short periods of the year when their labour is needed. Whatever would we do without them?
About 3 percent of illegal immigrants were working in farming and related sectors, according to Pew.

https://www.google.com/#q=what+perce...in+agriculture

I've read that if they were paid the same a workers who are legal immigrants and citizens, it would raise the cost of a head of lettuce by ten (10) cents.

Just think how the lives of those illegal immigrants would improve if our government actually fixed our guest worker and immigration system so that the illegals would have work permits and thus legal standing. If we need all those workers, our government needs to do a lot better by them than it has in a long time.

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It is no doubt quite possible, to grow more food on less acreage with certain sorts of farming practices. But in most cases, famine is an issue of distribution not of quantity. Even in those areas most prone to drought, this can be true. And for those other instances, where blight or drought wiped out all food, the problem was largely intensive agriculture with mono crops.

A better focus for solving famine problems is to reconsider both distribution systems as well as the reliance on large-scale mass farms.
I agree on this. I live in the desert. It's completely possible to grow plenty of food here. We just have a slightly different way of doing things because of low water.... such as underground irrigation. Works great.
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post #39 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-23-2016, 11:37 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

I ditched politics years ago. Put your time, energy, and focus into yourself. Only you can control your future. 1 president and 535 elected officials won't affect your life one bit.

As I get older (35), I focus on: Spending time with family/friends, making money, getting laid, and having fun. If you aren't doing that, you aren't living.
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post #40 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 01:04 AM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

OP, I get it, I'm with you. We're major league fVcked. All of the bad stuff that's about to happen is Trump's fault, but that does not negate the reality of the situation.

Your linchpin for fleeing to Canada/Alaska should be when the Big Ten suspends all football games, indefinitely, for undisclosed reasons. This will happen before the Midwest turns to desert.

Until that happens, don't sweat the small stuff and squeeze whatever joy you can out off this miserable existence.

Recognize that all things have a beginning and an end, including this planet. Consider yourself lucky to have had the opportunity to watch it burn.

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post #41 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 08:16 AM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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About 3 percent of illegal immigrants were working in farming and related sectors, according to Pew.

https://www.google.com/#q=what+perce...in+agriculture

I've read that if they were paid the same a workers who are legal immigrants and citizens, it would raise the cost of a head of lettuce by ten (10) cents.

Just think how the lives of those illegal immigrants would improve if our government actually fixed our guest worker and immigration system so that the illegals would have work permits and thus legal standing. If we need all those workers, our government needs to do a lot better by them than it has in a long time.
I don't know where this number comes from, but if you look at the National Agriculture Workers Survey, it says that the number of immigrant workers in agriculture has been somewhere in the 70% range for years, decades even. Of those, about half are illegal.

https://www.doleta.gov/agworker/naws.cfm

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to making it easier for immigrants to come legally to work in the US. And I am definitely a proponent of fair wages. My point was simply that our lovely cheap food is an artifact of an exploitative industry. And so perhaps is not something that provides much reassurance to someone with a progressive bent who is worried about our future.

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post #42 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 10:59 AM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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I don't know where this number comes from, but if you look at the National Agriculture Workers Survey, it says that the number of immigrant workers in agriculture has been somewhere in the 70% range for years, decades even. Of those, about half are illegal. .
There are 2 statistics that tell 2 parts of the story.

About 3.5% of illegals work in agriculture. But they make up between 50% of migrant farm workers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by wild jade View Post
Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to making it easier for immigrants to come legally to work in the US. And I am definitely a proponent of fair wages. My point was simply that our lovely cheap food is an artifact of an exploitative industry. And so perhaps is not something that provides much reassurance to someone with a progressive bent who is worried about our future.
From what I've read, increasing their pay to the same wages paid to legal and citizen workers is not going to raise our food prices all that much... about 10 cents for a head of lettuce. That's less than a 10% increase.

So the impact on our food prices would not go up all that much.

Keep in mind that a lot of farm/crop work today is not done by humans. With large corporate farms, almost everything is automated. Large farm equipment is use for everything from preparing fields, to planting, care and then harvesting.

Also, a lot of our food now comes from other countries. For example a lot of our produce is now grown in Mexico.

I don't think that low paid illegal immigrants have that big of an impact on our food.
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post #43 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 02:25 PM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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I don't think that low paid illegal immigrants have that big of an impact on our food.
Yes, absolutely agreed. There are lots of things that contribute to cheap food that include large scale mechanized agri-business and importing from other countries where the wages are even lower.

And you're absolutely right that raising the wages for the illegal immigrants to that of the others won't be that much of a raise in salary. Truth is, wages and working conditions in agriculture aren't good for anyone, whether legal or illegal, native born or immigrant.

It's just that for some reason, immigrant populations are the highest represented demographic in agriculture. Why do you think that is?
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post #44 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
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About 3 percent of illegal immigrants were working in farming and related sectors, according to Pew.

I've read that if they were paid the same a workers who are legal immigrants and citizens, it would raise the cost of a head of lettuce by ten (10) cents.

Just think how the lives of those illegal immigrants would improve if our government actually fixed our guest worker and immigration system so that the illegals would have work permits and thus legal standing. If we need all those workers, our government needs to do a lot better by them than it has in a long time.
I don't know where this number comes from, but if you look at the National Agriculture Workers Survey, it says that the number of immigrant workers in agriculture has been somewhere in the 70% range for years, decades even. Of those, about half are illegal.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to making it easier for immigrants to come legally to work in the US. And I am definitely a proponent of fair wages. My point was simply that our lovely cheap food is an artifact of an exploitative industry. And so perhaps is not something that provides much reassurance to someone with a progressive bent who is worried about our future.
Inexpensive food means millions of more people get to eat and stay alive.

I used to make chemicals that increased food production. I am very proud that in a small way I helped keep people from starving to death.
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post #45 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-25-2016, 07:54 AM
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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?

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Could you please explain why you think that Trump is "orange Hitler"?
Because it makes them feel so good to say it and it would be so unlady/ungentlemenly like to call him a MFer .

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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