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post #16 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 12:31 PM
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Re: So...

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What was done to keep Carrier is not unusual at all. The saved jobs will produce more tax revenue than the incentive given.
And you know this because?

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post #17 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 12:33 PM
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post #18 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 12:43 PM
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Re: So...

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States give tax breaks and all kinds of bennies to attract companies. This happens all the time.

New Mexico has been bidding to get many companies to move here. Part of the incentive package is the state offering low cost land, tax incentives and other things that the companies want. We lose a lot of them because NM is a poor state. Other states can offer more incentive.

What was done to keep Carrier is not unusual at all. The saved jobs will produce more tax revenue than the incentive given.
You can ask any southern state how well their incentives to foreign automakers worked...

Occasionally you get good results like with Toyota in Kentucky. In general, you don't. The Benz plant in Alabama required spectacular incentives if memory serves me correctly...

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post #19 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 12:43 PM
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If Carrier left the State of Indiana would lose all of the tax revenue generated by company operations there, along with the jobs and other taxes. States do this all the time. Better to have some than none.

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They will eventually do it. Ask the automakers.

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post #20 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 12:53 PM
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Re: So...

Really needs to be a country wide, not a state wide issue. We should really be competing with other countries, not inside the US.
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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 12:55 PM
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Re: So...

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If Carrier left the State of Indiana would lose all of the tax revenue generated by company operations there, along with the jobs and other taxes. States do this all the time. Better to have some than none.

~MS
Even if you take the tax revenue out of the equation, the thing that really stinks about this deal is that Carrier is still going to take 1300 jobs away from people that really need a job. Carrier does frickin care. They get the tax break, get to move to Mexico anyway taking advantage of cheap labor and still get to sell their products in the US. It's like they are being reworded for being a heartless company where the almighty buck is the only thing that matters. If companies are going to get deals like this from Trump nothing will ever get better. I guess stopping companies from taking jobs to other countries is just another broken campaign promise.

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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 01:01 PM
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Re: So...

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
States give tax breaks and all kinds of bennies to attract companies. This happens all the time.

New Mexico has been bidding to get many companies to move here. Part of the incentive package is the state offering low cost land, tax incentives and other things that the companies want. We lose a lot of them because NM is a poor state. Other states can offer more incentive.

What was done to keep Carrier is not unusual at all. The saved jobs will produce more tax revenue than the incentive given.
Carrier is moving to Mexico not New Mexico

"I've paid double for every transgression I've ever made and that motel and that boat are little to ask for"
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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 01:25 PM
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Re: So...

So...

Obama spent nearly a trillion on stimulus package with no shovel ready jobs to show for it. No outrage from his supporters.

His family's one vacation to Africa cost anywhere from $60 million to $100. No outrage from his supporters.

He gave a cool half a billion to Solyndra and it went belly up. No outrage from his supporters.

Obama spent a billion on a non-working ACA website. No outrage from his supporters.

Obama spent a trillion on the disaster that is ACA. No outrage from his supporters.

All in one accord: But he had to do something!

Trump gives $7 million to keep jobs in the US. That's an outrage! How dare he waste taxpayers' money?! Seven million is too much!

The intellectual dishonesty reeks to high heaven.
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 01:25 PM
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Re: So...

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Paul Krugman ‏@paulkrugman Nov 30
Another metric: Trump would have to do one Carrier-sized deal a week for 30 years to save as many jobs as Obama's auto bailout

Thanks Obama
Ah, Paul Krugman. The left's favorite retarded economist.

His estimate is not cited, but it comes from a study of "what if" of the auto companies just shut down, published by the Center for Automotive Research. It also includes the numbers of jobs lost from suppliers / transportation work, and anything ancillary. When we cherry pick our numbers, we can make them say anything we like.

Doesn't mean I'm a fan of crony capitalism under Trump, any more than I was under Obama. But Krugman is a shill still whining after Hilary lost, whose politics and ego come before any analysis. He has a terrible track record in predicting trends, especially completely missing the financial crisis despite all the warning signs. In fact, he publicly attacked the economists who pointed it out in advance.

In fact, there's a saying among the more economically competent: "Never Go Full Krugman."

You would do better with folks like Nassim Taleb.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 01:40 PM
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Ah, Paul Krugman. The left's favorite retarded economist.
LOL, that he is.

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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 02:08 PM
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Re: So...

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And you know this because?
Because I know how these deals work to bring (or save) jobs in communities. When a state makes a deal like this they look at the amount of tax revenue is created by the jobs. Remember that when a job is saved/created each employee spends money at the local stores. That creates more jobs at local stores and so more taxes are paid. In stead with sales taxes and state income taxes, that brings a lot of tax money into the state coffers.
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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 02:10 PM
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Re: So...

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Carrier is moving to Mexico not New Mexico
Exactly when did I say that Carrier is moving to New Mexico? Good grief...
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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 02:13 PM
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Re: So...

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Ah, Paul Krugman. The left's favorite retarded economist.
I audibly sighed.

Quote:
His estimate is not cited, but it comes from a study of "what if" of the auto companies just shut down, published by the Center for Automotive Research. It also includes the numbers of jobs lost from suppliers / transportation work, and anything ancillary. When we cherry pick our numbers, we can make them say anything we like.
I love how you say his estimate is not cited, but then continue to say what it entails. We can't make numbers say anything we like. It's impossible. Numbers say what numbers say and it's the interpretation of the methodology that matters. Of course, you deem this analysis as cherry picking, because that fits your narrative.

Quote:
Doesn't mean I'm a fan of crony capitalism under Trump, any more than I was under Obama. But Krugman is a shill still whining after Hilary lost, whose politics and ego come before any analysis. He has a terrible track record in predicting trends, especially completely missing the financial crisis despite all the warning signs. In fact, he publicly attacked the economists who pointed it out in advance.

In fact, there's a saying among the more economically competent: "Never Go Full Krugman."

You would do better with folks like Nassim Taleb.
Regardless of how you want to view Krugman (because the value is in what he wrote and not who wrote it) and even more so, it was slightly flippant (well, in terms that it's obvious that you cannot extrapolate an instance like this across a long time period and expect it to be really valid in terms of an actual metric).

The point is that people are EATING up this Trump "victory" like it is significant when it pales in comparison to what Obama has already done in terms of "saving" jobs.
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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 02:57 PM
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Re: So...

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
Because I know how these deals work to bring (or save) jobs in communities. When a state makes a deal like this they look at the amount of tax revenue is created by the jobs. Remember that when a job is saved/created each employee spends money at the local stores. That creates more jobs at local stores and so more taxes are paid. In stead with sales taxes and state income taxes, that brings a lot of tax money into the state coffers.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/1996/09/01...des-plant.html

And

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bro...then-what/amp/

I can provide even more hair rising examples


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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 03:12 PM
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Re: So...

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I audibly sighed.



I love how you say his estimate is not cited, but then continue to say what it entails. We can't make numbers say anything we like. It's impossible. Numbers say what numbers say and it's the interpretation of the methodology that matters. Of course, you deem this analysis as cherry picking, because that fits your narrative.



Regardless of how you want to view Krugman (because the value is in what he wrote and not who wrote it) and even more so, it was slightly flippant (well, in terms that it's obvious that you cannot extrapolate an instance like this across a long time period and expect it to be really valid in terms of an actual metric).

The point is that people are EATING up this Trump "victory" like it is significant when it pales in comparison to what Obama has already done in terms of "saving" jobs.
There is only 1 "study" that has been published that provides the number of jobs "saved" that provides an estimate in range of his claim. It is from CAR Anne Arbor. Or are you arguing that he just pulled these numbers from the ether and we should trust them because he is Krugtron the Invincible? I easily could have just dismissed your claim due to absolutely zero evidence, but I tried to be charitable, and assume that these numbers actually came from somewhere--an actual study. Now, if we look at CAR--who lists GM as a client and affiliate--they actually revised these numbers down to ~1.2M jobs, something not included in the Krugman numbers. (He sets it at over 2M)

Now, it is cherry-picking, to take numbers based on the assumption that when a company as massive as GM dissolves it will just cease to exist, along with any assets it had. Bankruptcy generally does not end that way, and in fact, a simple, high-profile and relatively recent example would be Hostess. As it turns out, although Hostess died, it's property was bought, and the same items are being sold under the same names today. As it also turns out, GM did file bankruptcy, and this didn't happen...

Now, when we talk about a company being "saved", do we count only the actual employees, or do we estimate how many ancillary positions will be lost due to clients of osing business? If you include ancillary 3rd party jobs, do you do the same for this Trump project? Are these fair comparisons? Is it fair to compare a President Elect, who has no actual power as of the moment, to a then sitting POTUS whose party had significant majorities in both house and senate? (And to be clear, the $7M was already on the table before the election. The state wanted them to stay and was begging)

Now, as to your audible sigh, if you take the time to study Taleb, you'll find he is neither a conservative nor right wing. He is actually on the left. He's just not a political hack. Krugman is the favorite toy of the left, because he says what they want to hear. He's a part of the echo chambers that I personally abhor. People like Taleb are less loved because they aren't concerned with forcing their ideas to conform to a political ideology.

Krugman is a pundit. He is rightly discounted, and for good reason.

But you are right, I shouldn't have been charitable. I just should have refuted your assertion with its lack of evidence. I shall remember that next time.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...

Last edited by Kivlor; 12-03-2016 at 03:24 PM.
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