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post #61 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 08:00 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

Could this be what people are all up in arms about? Paragraph (F) basically says that if a family wants to, they can have a fetus released to a funeral home and have a burial or cremation. That's normal. It's always been a choice. No where does it say that a funeral, burial or cremation is mandatory for every fetus that dies in spontaneous abortion (miscarriage), is still born or aborted. This is talking about choice.



RULE ß1.133 Scope, Covering Exemptions and Minimum Parametric Standards for Waste Treatment Technologies Previously Approved by the Texas Department of Health

(a) Exemptions.

**(1) Unless an item is specifically exempted, all special waste from health care-related facilities must be treated as provided in these sections.

**(2) These sections do not apply to:

****(A) teeth;

****(B) human tissue, including fetal tissue, donated for research or teaching purposes, with the consent of the person authorized to consent as otherwise provided by law, to an institution of higher learning, medical school, a teaching hospital affiliated with a medical school, or to a research institution or individual investigator subject to the jurisdiction of an institutional review board required by 42 United States Codes 289;

****(C) placentas designated for sale and obtained from a licensed hospital or a licensed birthing center;

****(D) in vitro tissue cultures that have not been intentionally exposed to pathogens;

****(E) any material included in the definition of special waste from health care-related facilities which has been sold, donated, or in any way transferred from one health care-related facility to a subsequent facility(s) and other entities specified in subparagraph (B) of this paragraph for research or teaching purposes until it is discarded; and

****(F) disposition of fetal remains of a single pregnancy, body parts, or tissue (including bulk blood), transferred for disposition to a licensed funeral director in accordance with the Health and Safety Code, Chapter 711, and Chapter 181 of this title (relating to Vital Statistics) with the consent of the person or persons authorized to consent to the disposition of the fetal remains, body parts, or tissue (including bulk blood). All subcategories of pathological waste, unless otherwise exempted, must be treated and disposed of in accordance with ß1.136 of this title (relating to Approved Methods of Treatment and Disposition).


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post #62 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 08:26 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
The inconsistency you claim does not existÖ itís your fabrication and I donít appreciate that fabrication.

You seem to think that you know what I think about the law and what is going on. YOU DO NOT as I have yet to give an opinion.

Instead, Iím trying to figure out which words in the law would lead to women or hospitals/clinics having to pay for cremation and/or burial of a fetus at the tune of a $1,000 or more per fetus. I cannot find it. So Iím simply asking for help understanding why people are upset.

Iím not quick to dismiss anyoneís concern. Iíve been asking for someone to show me the language in the law that is problematic.

If the law does indeed say that each fetus must be created/buried at a huge cost, $1,000 or more, I would object to the law. But all I see are words that say that an aborted fetus must be disposed of in the same way as blood, organs, and other human tissue.
First of all let's quote the latest updated law, not the 1991 version that you seem to be working from.

: Texas Register Preamble

In this latest version you can read:
"In undertaking this review, the department took into consideration a variety of statutes that express the Legislature's will to afford the level of protection and dignity to unborn children as state law affords to adults and children"

What does this mean? Is the cremation or burial of adults or children handled this same way random body parts are cremated or buried?

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post #63 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 09:08 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

Now all we need to do is pass open firearms carry in Texas and its transformation will be complete.
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post #64 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 09:37 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Originally Posted by Duguesclin View Post
First of all let's quote the latest updated law, not the 1991 version that you seem to be working from.

: Texas Register Preamble
The links I provided are the ones that are currently available online. The one you provided is the Texas Register Preamble, which lists changes to the rules and then has pages of comments and replies explaining the changes. Apparently, Texas has yet to actually update the pates for each of the rules.

https://www.tceq.texas.gov/permittin..._disposal.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duguesclin View Post
In this latest version you can read:

"In undertaking this review, the department took into consideration a variety of statutes that express the Legislature's will to afford the level of protection and dignity to unborn children as state law affords to adults and children"

What does this mean? Is the cremation or burial of adults or children handled this same way random body parts are cremated or buried?
Your link has the additional info that I was looking for. The 2016 modifications do state that fetal tissue is no longer handled as pathological waste.

After reading the link you provided, my take is:

1) The changes do not affect individual woman who have abortions. All of the changes apply to medical facilities.

2) The cost will be covered by medical facilities and cost about $450 annually so itís not a big deal since there would be a savings in that they already had to cover the cost of disposing of the fetal material and would save whatever they are spending right now.

3) I donít think that the changes provide any dignity to the unborn child/fetus. Aborted fetuses would be cremated/incinerated in bulk and their ashes disposed of as trash in bulk.

4) I think that the idea of a fetus death certificate is just down right stupid and a waste.

I also think that the article linked in the OP makes claims that are inaccurate.

Will these changes make it harder for women to get abortions? I donít think so. But I think that they will put more burden on medical facilities.

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post #65 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 10:00 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Now all we need to do is pass open firearms carry in Texas and its transformation will be complete.
I didn't realize they don't allow that

We have open and concealed carry, without permits needed for either. I didn't realize how much more free I am than by Texan brethren.
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post #66 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 10:33 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Do they make money doing this?

If they do profit, then it is not an accusation...

I am not associating my questions with a moral judgement in mind... I am sure Planned Parenthood is motivated for many reasons.
I don't know the answer, but I suspect any profit they make barely keeps them afloat. PP offers a wide range of women's health care for a very low cost to poverty stricken areas. When I worked in a different nonprofit, with urban poverty youth, birth control was only available from PP. If a girl developed a yeast infection, they went to PP. if a girl felt a lump in her breast, she went to PP. These are services that they used to have to go to the emergency room because my city had few community health clinics.

When people make a huge deal out of PP selling fetuses it's taken out of context and made to sound like a nefarious money making scheme in which the evil abortionists con pregnant women into getting an abortion so PP can make money from selling the fetus. And that is just ridiculous!

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post #67 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 10:48 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Originally Posted by 225985 View Post
A grandmother with a feeding tube is not a viable organ donor.

A living will prevents the issue your family went through.

My dad had the bed sores and that contributed to his death.

Your family made the right decision.
Yes, @soccermom2three her family did make the right decision. And the doctors did their job by making sure they were absolutely certain about DNR status.

My sister had a living will, and an advanced directive. My brother also had a living will and an advanced directive, and both my brother and sister had appointed a medical power of attorney. Every base was covered because they were terminal diseases. My brother was able to indicate on his own he refused a respirator, which meant within a few weeks his lungs would fill and he would die. My sister, unfortunately, was very confused towards the end and wasn't sound enough for her word or directions, so it fell to me.

On the other hand, I had no issue at all with the nursing home when my mother's dementia caused her to be completely immersed in hallucinations, and they weren't the happy fun hallucinations, they were night mares. So when I said enough, no more medical intervention, no more antibiotics, no tests, no trips to hospitals, they simply had me sign a DNR and when she developed another UTI it killed her.

People become doctors and nurses because they want to save lives and make people healthy. This idea that surgeons might discourage a live saving procedure in order to harvest organs is simply preposterous!

"Some women are blessed with multi-orgasmic ability for a reason and I'm damn sure not going to waste a blessing" ~FrenchFry

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post #68 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 11:13 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
These 2 things don't mesh. You're being irrational again.

Just sayin'
Jesus Christ you are annoying the hell out of me. The two things do mesh because of one single word you apparently overlooked. The word is "private."

Please continue to argue and bash and misconstrue and twist all you want. It's pathetic how you try to redirect the fact that you're wrong.

You can say you have a personal experience about the surgeons you know who claim to allow potential organ donors to die so they can harvest their organs. If you say that's your personal experience then all I can say in reply, according to @MattMatt is that I don't believe you. But when you imply that doctors or surgeons aren't organ donors because they've been on the inside of the nefarious racket of harvesting organs from people who might have been saved, that's an extrapolation from your doubtful personal experience that paints the entire organ donor system as fraudulent. And that would be a libelous statement and you would need to back that up with proof if you insist you are right.

Because:
Doctors More Likely To Register As Organ Donors Compared To The General Public

Doctors more likely than public to sign up for organ donation: study | Reuters

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0715165815.htm


Because it is people like you who spread utter nonsense that cause this:
From this article:https://www.advisory.com/daily-brief...e-their-organs

Quote:
There are a lot of people who subscribe to the belief that if a doctor knows you are a registered donor, they won't do everything they can to save your life," he says.

[QUOTE]

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post #69 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 03:32 AM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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I didn't realize they don't allow that

We have open and concealed carry, without permits needed for either. I didn't realize how much more free I am than by Texan brethren.
in Arizona you can carry concealed without permit. You can also carry a holstered sidearm anywhere in public. As long as you don't wear your gun into schools, government buildings or liquor stores you are fine.
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post #70 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 05:11 AM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

[quote=Anon Pink;16986290]Jesus Christ you are annoying the hell out of me. The two things do mesh because of one single word you apparently overlooked. The word is "private."

Please continue to argue and bash and misconstrue and twist all you want. It's pathetic how you try to redirect the fact that you're wrong.

You can say you have a personal experience about the surgeons you know who claim to allow potential organ donors to die so they can harvest their organs. If you say that's your personal experience then all I can say in reply, according to @MattMatt is that I don't believe you. But when you imply that doctors or surgeons aren't organ donors because they've been on the inside of the nefarious racket of harvesting organs from people who might have been saved, that's an extrapolation from your doubtful personal experience that paints the entire organ donor system as fraudulent. And that would be a libelous statement and you would need to back that up with proof if you insist you are right.

Because:
Doctors More Likely To Register As Organ Donors Compared To The General Public

Doctors more likely than public to sign up for organ donation: study | Reuters

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0715165815.htm


Because it is people like you who spread utter nonsense that cause this:
From this article:https://www.advisory.com/daily-brief...e-their-organs




@Anon Pink You were asked, by a moderator, in a Private Message, to substantiate your allegations against another member that they are a liar.

You have failed to do so.



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post #71 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 05:21 AM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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post #72 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 07:34 AM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
The links I provided are the ones that are currently available online. The one you provided is the Texas Register Preamble, which lists changes to the rules and then has pages of comments and replies explaining the changes. Apparently, Texas has yet to actually update the pates for each of the rules.

https://www.tceq.texas.gov/permittin..._disposal.html
I think this is the update you are looking for.
: Texas Register

Quote:
Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
Your link has the additional info that I was looking for. The 2016 modifications do state that fetal tissue is no longer handled as pathological waste.

After reading the link you provided, my take is:

1) The changes do not affect individual woman who have abortions. All of the changes apply to medical facilities.

2) The cost will be covered by medical facilities and cost about $450 annually so itís not a big deal since there would be a savings in that they already had to cover the cost of disposing of the fetal material and would save whatever they are spending right now.

3) I donít think that the changes provide any dignity to the unborn child/fetus. Aborted fetuses would be cremated/incinerated in bulk and their ashes disposed of as trash in bulk.

4) I think that the idea of a fetus death certificate is just down right stupid and a waste.

I also think that the article linked in the OP makes claims that are inaccurate.

Will these changes make it harder for women to get abortions? I donít think so. But I think that they will put more burden on medical facilities.
It is a common tactic to place undue burden to discourage something one disagree with but cannot outlaw. History, especially in Texas, is full of those tactics when it comes to abortion. This law is another example.

Who do you think is going to have to pay for this additional burden on the medical facilities? It is logical to think the customer will have to.

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post #73 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 07:48 AM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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I think this is the update you are looking for.
: Texas Register



It is a common tactic to place undue burden to discourage something one disagree with but cannot outlaw. History, especially in Texas, is full of those tactics when it comes to abortion. This law is another example.

Who do you think is going to have to pay for this additional burden on the medical facilities? It is logical to think the customer will have to.
I think the part in question here would be "undue" burden, right? As in an unjustified burden. That and whether or not the governing authority has the authority to regulate this. Which was established in your own previous links.

I'm curious Dug, what are your thoughts on professional licensing? (I promise this is going somewhere specifically related to this topic)
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post #74 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 08:35 AM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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I think the part in question here would be "undue" burden, right? As in an unjustified burden. That and whether or not the governing authority has the authority to regulate this. Which was established in your own previous links.

I'm curious Dug, what are your thoughts on professional licensing? (I promise this is going somewhere specifically related to this topic)
Professional licensing is important, but, like this Texas law, it can be carried away. It happens when one group has a self serving agenda. Unions are famous to put undue burdens on professional licenses like company owners are equally famous to push the other way and remove the professional licensing of its intent.

In the case of this Texas law, denying that the amendments are meant to put further burdens on the women is disingenuous.

It would far more honest to say that, because one is against abortion, these tactics are fair game. But just arguing there is no hidden agenda, knowing the history on this subject, is not true.

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Last edited by Duguesclin; 12-04-2016 at 08:40 AM.
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post #75 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 08:42 AM
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Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Originally Posted by Duguesclin View Post
Professional licensing is important, but, like this Texas law, it can be carried away. It happens when one group has a self serving agenda. Unions are famous to put undue burdens on professional licenses like company owners are equally famous to push the other way and remove the professional licensing of its intent.

In the case of this Texas law, denying that the amendments are meant to put further burdens on the women is disingenuous.

It would far more honest to say that, because one is against abortion, these tactics are fair game. But just arguing there is no hidden agenda, knowing the history on this subject, is not right.

Is it wrong to require abortion mills to treat the pre child with dignity? There are many more costly regulations affecting the industry.

I think you might be biased because you have not been aborted. If you were, you might take a different position.

Btw, every single law ever passed has a purpose and agenda behind it.
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