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post #76 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 09:03 AM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Is it wrong to require abortion mills to treat the pre child with dignity? There are many more costly regulations affecting the industry.

I think you might be biased because you have not been aborted. If you were, you might take a different position.

Btw, every single law ever passed has a purpose and agenda behind it.
Is it trying to fix a current problem or to fight abortion? It is the latter.


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post #77 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 09:37 AM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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@Anon Pink You were asked, by a moderator, in a Private Message, to substantiate your allegations against another member that they are a liar.

You have failed to do so.

@MattMatt

I believe the links I provided (and I've reposted them below) served as clarification and substantiation that Kivlor's claim that 'doctors don't become organ donors because of some nefarious scheme to harvest organs from donors who might be saved....' is false.

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...and they don't recommend it either. Because sometimes, when you're on the table and a surgeon sees you're on the list... oops... we just couldn't save that one. But fortunately, he'll be used as spare parts for all these other people! Good News!
I provided credible links that prove his assertion is wrong.

If a higher percentage of doctors are organ donors than the general public, how then could Kivlor's claim that "doctors don't become organ donors because...." be true?




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post #78 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 09:46 AM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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@MattMatt

I believe the links I provided (and I've reposted them below) served as clarification and substantiation that Kivlor's claim that 'doctors don't become organ donors because of some nefarious scheme to harvest organs from donors who might be saved....' is false.



I provided credible links that prove his assertion is wrong.

If a higher percentage of doctors are organ donors than the general public, how then could Kivlor's claim that "doctors don't become organ donors because...." be true?
@Anon Pink

But he was talking about surgeons he knows.

I knew a surgeon who was also very wary about becoming an organ donor.

And it is possible that surgeons may tell their friends stuff they would not want to say in their capacity as an employee of a hospital.

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post #79 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 10:11 AM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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@Anon Pink

But he was talking about surgeons he knows.

I knew a surgeon who was also very wary about becoming an organ donor.

And it is possible that surgeons may tell their friends stuff they would not want to say in their capacity as an employee of a hospital.
Oh sure anything is possible but being possible doesn't make it very likely or even reasonably likely.

It's possible I could become a doctor myself, but highly improbable. As such, if I claimed I was likely to become a doctor based on a friend having praised me for knowledge of first aid and quick thinking in an emergency, it would still be so unlikely that I would be lying.

Lying is when you say something is true when you know it is very unlikely to be true.

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post #80 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 11:14 AM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Oh sure anything is possible but being possible doesn't make it very likely or even reasonably likely.

It's possible I could become a doctor myself, but highly improbable. As such, if I claimed I was likely to become a doctor based on a friend having praised me for knowledge of first aid and quick thinking in an emergency, it would still be so unlikely that I would be lying.

Lying is when you say something is true when you know it is very unlikely to be true.
@Anon Pink

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1. Treat others on the forum with dignity and respect.
Personal attacks, hate speech, racist or sexist statements or attacks, sexual harassment, explicit sexual comments, promoting violence, will not be tolerated.
There is a difference between: "Based on my experience I think you might be wrong" and "You are a liar."

One complies with the rules. The other doesn't.

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post #81 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 11:30 AM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Originally Posted by Duguesclin View Post
Is it trying to fix a current problem or to fight abortion? It is the latter.


Maybe it's to help the mom. Now they will know afterwards that their baby was treated with dignity, not just thrown out with the trash.

It should help with their emotional healing in a very difficult time. How can you be against helping them heal?

I can even see this helping to sway them TOWARDS abortion.
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post #82 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 11:39 AM
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Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

Lying is saying something is true when you KNOW it is not.

Mrs Blue and I spent four years in organ donor hell. I could clearly see the difference in attitude and procedure between the medical staff at the transplant hospital vs the non transplant hospital.

There are widely reported stories of medical unethical or illegal practices. Happens all the time but it is the exception not the rule.

I can tell you true verified stories from my professional career that would blow your mind where people were put in harm for profit. And these were only the ones that were caught.

It is possible even subconsciously that medical staff will make different decisions concerning a potential donor.

I am listed as a donor. My wife is alive because of another person's choice.

I am willing to take my chances in the hospital.

A single donor can save at least a half dozen lives.

Last edited by blueinbr; 12-04-2016 at 11:45 AM.
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post #83 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 01:49 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Is it wrong to require abortion mills to treat the pre child with dignity? There are many more costly regulations affecting the industry.
Again, "abortion mills" implies in some way that we should make laws based on feelings. Isn't that usually the first thing people point out against liberal types that they are "all up in their feelings?" We have lots of people - living breathing people who aren't treated with dignity in our country or by healthcare - including veterans, the homeless, and the mentally ill. We could do a lot of things to regular the treatment of dignity, but we seem to be rather selective about how we apply it.

Quote:
I think you might be biased because you have not been aborted. If you were, you might take a different position.
Clearly anyone having an opinion about anything, here or elsewhere wasn't aborted. Asking how you'd feel if you'd been aborted is a form of conversation ending rhetoric that's pointless. It's like asking what life would be like if humans hadn't been kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

Quote:
Btw, every single law ever passed has a purpose and agenda behind it.
Sure, but the question often is what's the real purpose and agenda. IE - what were the people who wrote the laws thinking versus what we think about it or what we assume they thought. So is the real concern with this law "dignity" or something else?
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post #84 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 02:40 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post
@MattMatt

I believe the links I provided (and I've reposted them below) served as clarification and substantiation that Kivlor's claim that 'doctors don't become organ donors because of some nefarious scheme to harvest organs from donors who might be saved....' is false.



I provided credible links that prove his assertion is wrong.

If a higher percentage of doctors are organ donors than the general public, how then could Kivlor's claim that "doctors don't become organ donors because...." be true?
Anon,

I specifically spoke about the people I know and hang around. People I am extremely close to. I'm not talking statistics. I've no doubt that most doctors do put themselves on the list. I also haven't stated that no one should. Just that because my neurosurgeon friends don't, and because of what they've told me, I have requested to be removed from said lists. I used to be on them.

The reality of organ donation is that most of us will not be fit to donate. Which makes the cases my friends are discussing extremely, exceedingly rare. They admit this too. Even if you are an organ donor, and you happen to be a prime subject, it would completely depend on the surgeon trying to save you. We're not talking people dying slow, drawn out deaths, we're talking the rare case of being on the table, where a surgeon just may not try their best to save the patient. This isn't a cabal. It's not a conspiracy. It is occasional surgeons doing something that they justify as a greater good in their heads.

To be clear to you and the mods, I don't care if you believe me. I don't care if you call me names. The point of me tagging Elegirl earlier was to point out how off base your strange accusations were--because Ele and I have argued vociferously in the past--not to try to get someone banned. Because it is obvious that we are A) off topic and B) being watched closely for our interaction, this will be the last response you get regarding this topic.

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post #85 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 02:50 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Professional licensing is important, but, like this Texas law, it can be carried away. It happens when one group has a self serving agenda. Unions are famous to put undue burdens on professional licenses like company owners are equally famous to push the other way and remove the professional licensing of its intent.

In the case of this Texas law, denying that the amendments are meant to put further burdens on the women is disingenuous.

It would far more honest to say that, because one is against abortion, these tactics are fair game. But just arguing there is no hidden agenda, knowing the history on this subject, is not true.
Thanks for the answer Dug.

So, would it be fair to say that you're fine with professional licensing / regulation as long as it doesn't place an undue (or unjust) burden on the people it is aimed at? The point of this whole vein was to make sure I'm arguing in good faith, because if you come from a position of "all regulations are fine" then there would seem to be a problem here; and if you came from a position of "no regulations" then we'd have to start there.

I agree that it is obvious that the law will place a burden on abortion services. It's obvious that both the for and against sides of these things are primarily motivated by ideology. For the people at Planned Parenthood, any additional regulation will be viewed and construed as too much. For those who are on the Pro-Life side, any regulation will be acceptable and just.

So the question here is: does this place an unjust burden on abortion services? I think that's yet to be seen. If we take the estimates from the people opposed, it will add $2,000 per abortion. If we take the estimates from the regulating authority's response, they project an annual cost of ~$450 per facility providing the service. If the opposition is right, they're probably correct that this an undue burden. If the governing body is right, $450 per facility (not per abortion) is pretty minuscule and wouldn't reach to point of "undue burden".


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post #86 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 03:01 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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Again, "abortion mills" implies in some way that we should make laws based on feelings. Isn't that usually the first thing people point out against liberal types that they are "all up in their feelings?" We have lots of people - living breathing people who aren't treated with dignity in our country or by healthcare - including veterans, the homeless, and the mentally ill. We could do a lot of things to regular the treatment of dignity, but we seem to be rather selective about how we apply it.







Clearly anyone having an opinion about anything, here or elsewhere wasn't aborted. Asking how you'd feel if you'd been aborted is a form of conversation ending rhetoric that's pointless. It's like asking what life would be like if humans hadn't been kicked out of the Garden of Eden.







Sure, but the question often is what's the real purpose and agenda. IE - what were the people who wrote the laws thinking versus what we think about it or what we assume they thought. So is the real concern with this law "dignity" or something else?


My term abortion mill was analogous to puppy mills, that spew out dogs in large quantities for profit.

I really have no "feeling" about it. I dislike the extremists on both sides.

The fact that there are other groups not treated with dignity in no way negates treating babies with dignity. There is no connection here. There is a social benefit to treating life as sacred.

I only heard of one aborted person surviving. I was being facetious, but still stressing the point that some are advocating a position that would have prevented them from being born.

The law to me passes the equal protection clause. It treats all medical procedures equally.
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post #87 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 07:40 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

I don't like it, I never have, it devalues life in my eyes... I wish my government didn't pay for it and it was funded only by private donors that insist on quality care and counseling.

That said, it is totally an individual choice and I'll never put down or shame someone who has ever had to make it.

If asked by someone contemplating it, I would help them come to the best choice for them... never leveraging my first statement, and helping them with support however I can allowing them to guide their own path without shame the best I can.

I will love them either way, but they may have to listen to some mindful sharing of Buddhist principles in the course of that love...

I think that is my presence of this in a nutshell.
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post #88 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 01:39 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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I don't like it, I never have, it devalues life in my eyes... I wish my government didn't pay for it and it was funded only by private donors that insist on quality care and counseling.

That said, it is totally an individual choice and I'll never put down or shame someone who has ever had to make it.

If asked by someone contemplating it, I would help them come to the best choice for them... never leveraging my first statement, and helping them with support however I can allowing them to guide their own path without shame the best I can.

I will love them either way, but they may have to listen to some mindful sharing of Buddhist principles in the course of that love...

I think that is my presence of this in a nutshell.

Your government doesn't pay for abortions!!!!!

Planned Parenthood offers all GYN health care needs to those who can't afford a regular doctor, those who are uninsured, those who can't access GYN services on their own through their regular channels (like teenagers who want birth control but can't or won't ask parents to take them to the doctor to get birth control) Planned Parenthood does Pap test, diagnoses and treats UTI's and STI's, they teach breast self examination, and they offer birth control. These are the services the government pays for.

The government funds DO NOT and MAY NOT be used for abortion services.



Planned Parenthood is not an abortion mill and the analogy doesn't fit.

A puppy mill spits out litters of puppies and the litters are kept in cages where their health and development are so severely neglected that a large percentage of puppy mill puppies grow into dogs with behavior problems.

Planned parenthood does a great deal more that provide abortion services.

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post #89 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 01:44 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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@Anon Pink

Forum Rules - **Please Read This First**



There is a difference between: "Based on my experience I think you might be wrong" and "You are a liar."

One complies with the rules. The other doesn't.

Thank you for the refresher. I am aware of the difference between characterizing statements and characterizing one's character. I do the former frequently, I only do the latter in PM.


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post #90 of 122 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 02:03 PM
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Re: Texas law on cremating or burying fetuses

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I don't like it, I never have, it devalues life in my eyes... I wish my government didn't offer funding to organizations who perform or promote it, and that women considering it were given quality care and counseling.

That said, it is totally an individual choice and I'll never put down or shame someone who has ever had to make it.

If asked by someone contemplating it, I would help them come to the best choice for them... never leveraging my first statement, and helping them with support however I can allowing them to guide their own path without shame the best I can.

I will love them either way, but they may have to listen to some mindful sharing of Buddhist principles in the course of that love...

I think that is my presence of this in a nutshell.
How about that instead @Anon Pink

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
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For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
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