Abortion as a general topic - Page 3 - Talk About Marriage
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post #31 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 04:28 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by lifeistooshort View Post
You dodged the question.

Why should an early abortion not be ok but masterbating is ok?

Sperm are alive.
Because they're not equivalent? You're being disingenuous and you know it.

Sperm are unicellular, with a natural life-cycle of 90 days, and whether a man ejaculates or not, will naturally exit the body to die, or die and be reabsorbed by the body. Sperm are incomplete, lacking a full DNA sequence, and cannot self-replicate. This is basically the same for women's eggs.

In short, no matter how long I wait, my sperm will not turn into a multicellular organism, with its own complete and distinct DNA sequence etc, etc. It is more like an amoeba, with half of the necessary DNA to be considered human.


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post #32 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 04:28 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
The word kill is also misleading. For example the morning after pill does not KILL anything, it just prevents the "embryo" (which may or may not even be an embryo) from attaching to the uterus (which doesn't often happen even without the help of the morning after pill).
At this stage it is just a mass of cells and is called a blastocyst



It doesn't 'look' anything like a baby yet. So unless you believe that life starts right at the moment of fertilization (which lot of people do) then no, you aren't killing anything.

The question becomes, then, when is the baby 'alive'?
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post #33 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 04:40 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

True. I guess that's the key, when is it "alive"? And there is no way we are going to all agree upon it.
We should pick and choose our battles. I hope we can all agree that a third trimester pregnancy is considered alive.
Fighting to make abortion illegal for third trimester pregnancy is understandable and doable.
Fighting to make plan B illegal is just wasting energy.
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post #34 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 04:41 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

If you do believe that life begins and the moment of fertilization, then you'd have to prevent fertilization by using the pill, an IUD, a condom etc.

Here's a cool site on human embryology

http://www.embryology.ch/genericpage...eembryoen.html
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post #35 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 05:42 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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And here in the US, most people (#notall) who propose abortion bans make exception for rape and for saving the life of the mother.
I would be happy with this proposal.
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post #36 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 05:45 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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True. I guess that's the key, when is it "alive"? And there is no way we are going to all agree upon it.
We should pick and choose our battles. I hope we can all agree that a third trimester pregnancy is considered alive.
Fighting to make abortion illegal for third trimester pregnancy is understandable and doable.
Fighting to make plan B illegal is just wasting energy.
I know of some TAM members who will disagree with you on 3rd trimester being alive.

I agree that fighting to make plan B illegal is a waste of energy.

I mentioned in a previous thread where this was discussed that one of the major problems with creating any dialogue between the pro-life and pro-choice movements, is that they don't speak the same language.

The pro-choice argument is one of selfish practicality and can be summed up by their own slogan "My body my choice". It's basically a childish "you can't tell me what to do!" The pro-life argument is that of the rule of law: "abortion is murder". One of these people is arguing ethics, the other is arguing their feelings. They can't even begin to understand each other. Which leads to all of this hatred we see when the two sides clash.

I think the pro-life side is on the right side. (even if they appear to be losing) They just make their arguments poorly, and far too many of them appeal to religion, when that is not a winning argument that will convince anyone how wrong they are.

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post #37 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 06:17 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

No one is going to win their argument. The pro-lifers and the pro-choicers need to come together and compromise, not fight and insult each other to the death that their belief is correct.
I say we all agree on no abortions after 20 weeks
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post #38 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 06:26 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
The word kill is also misleading. For example the morning after pill does not KILL anything, it just prevents the "embryo" (which may or may not even be an embryo) from attaching to the uterus (which doesn't often happen even without the help of the morning after pill).

With the availability of contraception, and the morning after pill I can't believe how many abortions there still are today. It's actually really embarrassing how dumb we are (we as in the men and women who have sex).

That is pretty close, but it actually prevents/delays the release of a woman's egg via hormonal manipulation. If the egg is not released it can't be fertilized. The rogue sperm and the egg never meet, there is no "embryo" at all.
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post #39 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 06:37 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by kristin2349 View Post
That is pretty close, but it actually prevents/delays the release of a woman's egg via hormonal manipulation. If the egg is not released it can't be fertilized. The rogue sperm and the egg never meet, there is no "embryo" at all.


Your right thanks! My understanding of it was antiquated.
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post #40 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 07:12 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Matt said the other thread was off topic. Here is the thread he suggested.

Blue, why do you think my saying that I am okay with state-funded abortion, but am against mandatory abortion, is in conflict with my belief that every child should be a wanted child?
I don't want to pay for your abortion.

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post #41 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 07:16 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by lifeistooshort View Post
You dodged the question.

Why should an early abortion not be ok but masterbating is ok?

Sperm are alive.

Why are anti abortionists not targeting masterbating men?
Sperm is not a potential human being. It doesn't have unique DNA. It's absolutely not the same thing.
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post #42 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Whether or not you think abortion is murder is a personal opinion. BUT if there was no abortion, you can't deny that society would be in trouble. People complain now about how much they are taxed, imagine if there where a million more unwanted babies. And those unwanted babies grow up and have unwanted babies. Not to mention crime, and over population. It's ridiculous to think this world would be ok without abortion.
Hear, hear. A voice of reason.

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post #43 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 09:11 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Sperm has the same rights as a child in the womb. How is it abortion is not considered murder but when a pregnant woman is murdered it will be consider double homicide in a court of law?
Because in California the word "fetus" is contained within the criminal statute for murder.

Bear in mind the topic is complicated and emotional.

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post #44 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 10:04 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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The pro-choice argument is one of selfish practicality and can be summed up by their own slogan "My body my choice". It's basically a childish "you can't tell me what to do!" The pro-life argument is that of the rule of law: "abortion is murder". One of these people is arguing ethics, the other is arguing their feelings. They can't even begin to understand each other. Which leads to all of this hatred we see when the two sides clash.
I disagree with the statement. Each and every one of is a sovereign being. We are all ultimately sovereign or in charge of our own bodies, to do with as we see fit. You and I and anyone else may disagree with what any one else may decide to do with that body, but it is theirs to with as they want. It is not yours or mine or anyone else's. It is a basic human right. You may not like abortion for whatever reason, but you cannot deny that nature has made it so that it the woman who will bring new life into this world. But the woman's human rights are not somehow suspended due to nature. She has every right as a sentient being to decide what is in her best interests, regardless of what ever you think. To say it a childish "you can't tell me what to do" tirade flies in the face of reality. It is simply an honest expression of reality. It is not childish or immature.
You can speak of ethics, all you want, but your ethics are your own. They are not all or some women's. We are all bound by our own code of ethics regardless. Each of us ultimately acts in what we consider our own best interests. If you believe it is a sin against some God, then don't do it. If you believe it is a violation of natural law, then don't do it. If you believe it is aggression against the unborn, then don't do it. If you believe it based on a scientific principle, don't do it. But whatever the reasons, those are your reasons and yours alone. They are not those of the woman facing the prospect of acting in what they may not consider to be what is best for them.
Ultimately, whatever choice we make, we will live with. Some will make a choice you will not agree with it. But it isn't your place to decide for anyone else. They are the only ones who have to live with their decisions.

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post #45 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 11:12 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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How is it abortion is not considered murder but when a pregnant woman is murdered it will be consider double homicide in a court of law?
Literally seem to cover this in one thread a day. That is not a universal truth. Each state (at least here in the US) has varying laws on whether or not killing a pregnant woman does or does not count as a double homicide and ... surprise, surprise the laws on that usually relate to that state's stance on abortion.

So in the US at least there is no universal truth that killing a pregnant = double homicide and therefore abortion = murder "in a court of law."

That's not a universal truth.
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