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post #46 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 11:16 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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I don't want to pay for your abortion.
I'd like to be able to opt out of paying for wars I don't believe in - cool? Yea? Nay?

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post #47 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 12:20 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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I'm just going to say it, this thread is a little weird.
Uh, this is TAM. What else would you expect?
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post #48 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 12:41 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Why can you not argue abortion is murder logic when a pregnant woman who is murdered the accused is tried for a double homicide? The courts see this a double murder. But abortion it is not. It is a question, not an argument or a discussion to get upset over.
The person who murder's the woman, and thus her unborn child, has no legal standing in deciding the fate of the unborn child. So if their actions end in the death of the unborn child, it's murder in some states.

A woman on the other hand has the legal right to chose to complete a pregnancy or not. So an abortion is not murder at this time in the USA.
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post #49 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 06:13 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Because the zealots on both sides of the aisle don't profit from your plan. The <abortion is a sacrament> crowd don't care about children. And neither do most of the <abortion is murder> crowd.

It's about virtue signalling for most of them.
I agree entirely

Virtue Signalling.......... Yeah that's well worth time spent on corners on rainy days when the passers by think to themselves....... How does this in any way help?

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post #50 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 06:39 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by Hope1964 View Post
Sperm are not alive. Sperm contain half of the genetic material required to produce a viable embryo. The egg contains the other half.

Sperm appear to be alive because they move. In fact, their mobility is the result of complex chemical interactions and chemical signals given off by the egg.

If you believe sperm are alive, you must also believe that eggs are alive.
Yes they are....as much as a bunch of cells.

I'm fine with the egg being alive as well.

Women don't cause an egg to disintegrate based on deliberate actions. Masterbating kills sperm and it's a deliberate act.

I really don't care who masterbates and am very pro choice, though I could support a limit on the abortion of a healthy fetus. As in last trimester.

I just don't like the double standard bullying of pregnant women based on subjective beliefs about life.

If one is going to supposedly care so much about life they should at least be consistent.
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post #51 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 06:46 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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I'd like to be able to opt out of paying for wars I don't believe in - cool? Yea? Nay?
Right? I don't want to pay for any medical treatment for people who stuff themselves with junk food and develop diabetes and high blood pressure, yet like everyone else in society of do.

I also don't want my taxes to support tax exempt churches that are very political and try to meddle in my business, yet my taxes support them.

If only we all had the option of picking and choosing what we pay for.
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post #52 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 06:46 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
No one is going to win their argument. The pro-lifers and the pro-choicers need to come together and compromise, not fight and insult each other to the death that their belief is correct.
I say we all agree on no abortions after 20 weeks
I agree with the 20 week limit on abortions with a couple of exceptions: 1) mother's life is endangered and 2) the fetus is found to have serious mental or physical disabilities.


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post #53 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 07:07 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by Ynot View Post
I disagree with the statement. Each and every one of is a sovereign being. We are all ultimately sovereign or in charge of our own bodies, to do with as we see fit. You and I and anyone else may disagree with what any one else may decide to do with that body, but it is theirs to with as they want. It is not yours or mine or anyone else's. It is a basic human right. You may not like murder for whatever reason, but you cannot deny that nature has made it so that it any man can take a life. But human rights are not somehow suspended due to nature. We has every right as a sentient beings to decide what is in our best interests, regardless of what ever you think. To say it a childish "you can't tell me what to do" tirade flies in the face of reality. It is simply an honest expression of reality. It is not childish or immature.
Fixed that for you. Anyone can take a life Ynot. Nature has afforded us the power to do it. Having the power does not equate to having the right.

This is a childish argument. The basic argument is that because someone is close in proximity to you, you now can kill them. Because "I'm sovereign". That is a childish, selfish mentality. You don't have the right [justification] for such an action just based on someone's proximity to you. Nor based on "I'm sovereign".

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You can speak of ethics, all you want, but your ethics are your own. They are not all or some women's. We are all bound by our own code of ethics regardless. Each of us ultimately acts in what we consider our own best interests.
Ethics are objective. We can misjudge them. We can be incorrect. But they exist. They aren't "mine" or "yours".

If you really believe they are subjective, then you have no right to complain when I foist mine on someone else, because those are my values, and they're equally valid. Moral Relativism is a joke and is only used to trick the proles.

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If you believe it is murder, then don't do it. But whatever the reasons, those are your reasons and yours alone. They are not those of the woman facing the prospect of acting in what they may not consider to be what is best for them.
Ultimately, whatever choice we make, we will live with. Some will make a choice you will not agree with it. But it isn't your place to decide for anyone else. They are the only ones who have to live with their decisions.
fixed that for you.

So, if my neighbor is luring children into their home to strangle them, then the response is "Whatever choice they make, they live with. Some will make a choice you don't agree with but it isn't your place to decide for anyone else".

You aren't even attempting to argue in a serious fashion, are you? It's okay, we're all used to it. It's all the Pro-Choice aisle has. They can only be disingenuous in their arguments, because they have none to stand on, and they know it. This is the great failing of the "Pro-Life" side. They allow you to determine the ground we'll fight on, and they permit you to shift it to an argument of "feelings". I'll not budge an inch on that because feelings are not a basis for law. Ethics are.

This is my point Ynot, you are proving it. We are speaking completely different languages. You're arguing about feelings, while I'm arguing about ethics and facts. We can't hope to have a meaningful dialogue if we speak past each other.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

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post #54 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 07:16 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by Hope1964 View Post
If you do believe that life begins and the moment of fertilization, then you'd have to prevent fertilization by using the pill, an IUD, a condom etc.
Which would be awesome if BC was 100%. It's not.

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Who believes in very late abortions? Aren't 3rd trimester abortions illegal in the US? I know some countries believe abortion at any time is ok but that's the exception to the rule.
3rd trimester abortion is legal in the US. Under federal law, only abortion in the 9th month is illegal. State laws may vary.


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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
No one is going to win their argument. The pro-lifers and the pro-choicers need to come together and compromise, not fight and insult each other to the death that their belief is correct.
I say we all agree on no abortions after 20 weeks
I can't agree on abortion only before 20 weeks. Without a late term abortion performed in the 7th month of pregnancy in 1971, which saved my mother's health and future fertility, I wouldn't be here. Neither would my 2 younger siblings and our total of 12 children. 1 abortion nearly 45 years ago resulted in a total of 15 lives. I see that as a net gain.

What people rarely discuss is that abortions were legally and quasi-legally performed here in the US long before the landmark ruling on Roe v Wade in 1973. Pre Roe, women could receive abortion services in hospitals under certain circumstances. Some doctors would perform abortions for desperate women and simply record it as a "D&C". In my mothers case, she had to appear before a committee of doctors to obtain permission for her abortion. Once she showed that continuing the pregnancy and attempting delivery could endanger her life and future fertility, she was approved.

The stupid thing is that it wouldn't have been a late term abortion if she could have simply gone to a clinic for the procedure when they realized there were serious complications. The abortion happened much later than it would have if she didn't have to jump through so many hoops to have it done.

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
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post #55 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 07:21 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Whether or not you think abortion is murder is a personal opinion. BUT if there was no abortion, you can't deny that society would be in trouble. People complain now about how much they are taxed, imagine if there where a million more unwanted babies. And those unwanted babies grow up and have unwanted babies. Not to mention crime, and over population. It's ridiculous to think this world would be ok without abortion.
I find this an interesting line of thought personally. Probably because I enjoy looking at statistics and such. It does appear that Roe v Wade coincided with a significant drop in crime ~18 years later.

However, what does it say about the people having an abortion and their supporters, if the argument is "they would have been terrible parents, raised terrible, criminal children, and therefore we should execute those kids before they get the chance to be criminals."

Not a very good line of reasoning, is it?


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post #56 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 07:41 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by lifeistooshort View Post
If one is going to supposedly care so much about life they should at least be consistent.
I agree. That means no more war, definitely no more draft, no death penalty, no vigilante justice.

It's amazing to me how many people who will argue the pro-life argument 'til their blue in the face when it comes to abortion, but as soon as you talk about war and executing criminals, all of a sudden life doesn't mean squat anymore.
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post #57 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 07:59 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by Ynot View Post
Because the law recognizes the rights that the woman has granted the fetus by carrying it to term. It is one of those grey areas that the black and white extremists on either side can't accept as reality. Most people don't understand that nature or God has made it that it is ultimately up to the woman, who's life and body is required for new life to come into this world.
God never intended to leave the choice up to women to make the choice. Please direct me to any part of the Bible or Dead Sea scrolls that states God said it is the woman's choice to abort what He has made. I'm not a holy roller and I'm ok with abortion in some cased but I can assure you God never said it is up to the woman.

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Last edited by Yeswecan; 12-07-2016 at 08:26 AM.
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post #58 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 08:01 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by Haiku View Post
Because in California the word "fetus" is contained within the criminal statute for murder.

Bear in mind the topic is complicated and emotional.
It is beyond bungled and a gray area.

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post #59 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 08:06 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
The person who murder's the woman, and thus her unborn child, has no legal standing in deciding the fate of the unborn child. So if their actions end in the death of the unborn child, it's murder in some states.

A woman on the other hand has the legal right to chose to complete a pregnancy or not. So an abortion is not murder at this time in the USA.
But Elegirl, if I'm not mistaken, the unborn child is not "alive" according to the law. That question of what is consider alive or not in the womb remains gray as gray gets. When is the child alive?

My twin nieces were born premature at 23 weeks. I clearing understand viable life. Both were eating Belgian waffles in my kitchen this morning. The law understands viable life when?

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post #60 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 08:25 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Who believes in very late abortions? Aren't 3rd trimester abortions illegal in the US? I know some countries believe abortion at any time is ok but that's the exception to the rule.
The child is considered viable at 24 weeks unless the womans life is in danger the child can not be aborted. At 37 weeks it is considered full term.

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