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post #61 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 10:22 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by Yeswecan View Post
But Elegirl, if I'm not mistaken, the unborn child is not "alive" according to the law. That question of what is consider alive or not in the womb remains gray as gray gets. When is the child alive?

My twin nieces were born premature at 23 weeks. I clearing understand viable life. Both were eating Belgian waffles in my kitchen this morning. The law understands viable life when?
These are very tough issues that society struggles with. For that reason, there is often inconsistencies between laws.

But the bottom line is that only a pregnant woman has the legal right to abort (and thus kill) the fetus/child she is carrying.

A person who murders a pregnant woman had to right to kill her and/or to kill her fetus/child.


I am also very familiar with the concept of viable life. I believe that a fetus is alive from the moment of conception. But I also believe that all humans have the right to self defense and to their own body. For a woman this includes the right to determine if she is willing to carry a baby to term.

Years ago I had a terrible pregnancy that ended with the still birth of twins late in the 6th month. During this pregnancy I lost 25 lbs. I could not keep any food or water down. If I sat up in bed, I was so dizzy that I would throw up. I had to be hospitalized several times just to get re-hydrated. Were it not for blood transfusions and heavy antibiotics I would have died from that birth. I was disabled by infections for 6 months after the birth. Note that I have only very lightly touched on the physical and health problems caused by that pregnancy. Just don't think you all want to be bored by the long list of hell.

In the end, the infections following that pregnancy made it so that I could never get pregnant again. And it took years for my health to recover from that pregnancy.

In the old days, 25% of women died from child birth. Today women still die from child birth but at a lower rate.

After I started to get better, my then husband wanted me to get pregnant again immediately. I told him that I would only agree to get pregnant again if I had the choice to an abortion should the next pregnancy get to the point that the previous one did. He reluctantly agreed.

See, my doctor never even suggested that I might want to consider abortion because the pregnancy was taking such a toll on my health. My doctor did not do that because he had zero idea of the real hell I went through in that pregnancy. Sometimes only the pregnant woman knows the real toll that a pregnancy is taking on her. So she needs to have the right to make the decision based on things that only she knows.

That pregnancy is the reason that I support choice. That pregnancy taught me that a woman is the only one who really knows what is going on with her body and mind. And like every other human on this planet, that woman has the right to self defense.

Based on my real-life experience, one that I only learned because I went through the pregnancy from hell, nothing anyone says against choice will convince me that a woman should not have the right to protect her mental and physical health during pregnancy--to the point of her having the right to abort.

In natural law, every human has the right to self-defense.

Do some people use abortion as birth control? I'm sure that some do. But in the end, that is between them and God.

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post #62 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 10:27 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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These are very tough issues that society struggles with. For that reason, there is often inconsistencies between laws.

But the bottom line is that only a pregnant woman has the legal right to abort (and thus kill) the fetus/child she is carrying.

A person who murders a pregnant woman had to right to kill her and/or to kill her fetus/child.


I am also very familiar with the concept of viable life. I believe that a fetus is alive from the moment of conception. But I also believe that all humans have the right to self defense and to their own body. For a woman this includes the right to determine if she is willing to carry a baby to term.

Years ago I had a terrible pregnancy that ended with the still birth of twins late in the 6th month. During this pregnancy I lost 25 lbs. I could not keep any food or water down. If I sat up in bed, I was so dizzy that I would throw up. I had to be hospitalized several times just to get re-hydrated. Were it not for blood transfusions and heavy antibiotics I would have died from that birth. I was disabled by infections for 6 months after the birth. Note that I have only very lightly touched on the physical and health problems caused by that pregnancy. Just don't think you all want to be bored by the long list of hell.

In the end, the infections following that pregnancy made it so that I could never get pregnant again. And it took years for my health to recover from that pregnancy.

In the old days, 25% of women died from child birth. Today women still die from child birth but at a lower rate.

After I started to get better, my then husband wanted me to get pregnant again immediately. I told him that I would only agree to get pregnant again if I had the choice to an abortion should the next pregnancy get to the point that the previous one did. He reluctantly agreed.

See, my doctor never even suggested that I might want to consider abortion because the pregnancy was taking such a toll on my health. My doctor did not do that because he had zero idea of the real hell I went through in that pregnancy. Sometimes only the pregnant woman knows the real toll that a pregnancy is taking on her. So she needs to have the right to make the decision based on things that only she knows.

That pregnancy is the reason that I support choice. That pregnancy taught me that a woman is the only one who really knows what is going on with her body and mind. And like every other human on this planet, that woman has the right to self defense.

Based on my real-life experience, one that I only learned because I went through the pregnancy from hell, nothing anyone says against choice will convince me that a woman should not have the right to protect her mental and physical health during pregnancy--to the point of her having the right to abort.

In natural law, every human has the right to self-defense.

Do some people use abortion as birth control? I'm sure that some do. But in the end, that is between them and God.
good post.

Just to add, as a society we need to figure out how to allow choice, but at the same time minimize abortions towards only for cases of rape/incest/safety of the mother. Which means things like easier access to bc and better education. I think many people would be more happy if way less abortions were performed, but the option was there when necessary... Gets us away from on demand and its polar opposite (never). Those two sides will keep this argument alive for the next several hundred years.
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post #63 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 10:39 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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These are very tough issues that society struggles with. For that reason, there is often inconsistencies between laws.

But the bottom line is that only a pregnant woman has the legal right to abort (and thus kill) the fetus/child she is carrying.

A person who murders a pregnant woman had to right to kill her and/or to kill her fetus/child.


I am also very familiar with the concept of viable life. I believe that a fetus is alive from the moment of conception. But I also believe that all humans have the right to self defense and to their own body. For a woman this includes the right to determine if she is willing to carry a baby to term.

Years ago I had a terrible pregnancy that ended with the still birth of twins late in the 6th month. During this pregnancy I lost 25 lbs. I could not keep any food or water down. If I sat up in bed, I was so dizzy that I would throw up. I had to be hospitalized several times just to get re-hydrated. Were it not for blood transfusions and heavy antibiotics I would have died from that birth. I was disabled by infections for 6 months after the birth. Note that I have only very lightly touched on the physical and health problems caused by that pregnancy. Just don't think you all want to be bored by the long list of hell.

In the end, the infections following that pregnancy made it so that I could never get pregnant again. And it took years for my health to recover from that pregnancy.

In the old days, 25% of women died from child birth. Today women still die from child birth but at a lower rate.

After I started to get better, my then husband wanted me to get pregnant again immediately. I told him that I would only agree to get pregnant again if I had the choice to an abortion should the next pregnancy get to the point that the previous one did. He reluctantly agreed.

See, my doctor never even suggested that I might want to consider abortion because the pregnancy was taking such a toll on my health. My doctor did not do that because he had zero idea of the real hell I went through in that pregnancy. Sometimes only the pregnant woman knows the real toll that a pregnancy is taking on her. So she needs to have the right to make the decision based on things that only she knows.

That pregnancy is the reason that I support choice. That pregnancy taught me that a woman is the only one who really knows what is going on with her body and mind. And like every other human on this planet, that woman has the right to self defense.

Based on my real-life experience, one that I only learned because I went through the pregnancy from hell, nothing anyone says against choice will convince me that a woman should not have the right to protect her mental and physical health during pregnancy--to the point of her having the right to abort.

In natural law, every human has the right to self-defense.

Do some people use abortion as birth control? I'm sure that some do. But in the end, that is between them and God.

And your situation is a good reason to abort. In hindsight, long before modern medicine, your situation would have been life taking.

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post #64 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 10:44 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Originally Posted by EleGirl View Post
These are very tough issues that society struggles with. For that reason, there is often inconsistencies between laws.

But the bottom line is that only a pregnant woman has the legal right to abort (and thus kill) the fetus/child she is carrying.

A person who murders a pregnant woman had to right to kill her and/or to kill her fetus/child.


I am also very familiar with the concept of viable life. I believe that a fetus is alive from the moment of conception. But I also believe that all humans have the right to self defense and to their own body. For a woman this includes the right to determine if she is willing to carry a baby to term.

Years ago I had a terrible pregnancy that ended with the still birth of twins late in the 6th month. During this pregnancy I lost 25 lbs. I could not keep any food or water down. If I sat up in bed, I was so dizzy that I would throw up. I had to be hospitalized several times just to get re-hydrated. Were it not for blood transfusions and heavy antibiotics I would have died from that birth. I was disabled by infections for 6 months after the birth. Note that I have only very lightly touched on the physical and health problems caused by that pregnancy. Just don't think you all want to be bored by the long list of hell.

In the end, the infections following that pregnancy made it so that I could never get pregnant again. And it took years for my health to recover from that pregnancy.

In the old days, 25% of women died from child birth. Today women still die from child birth but at a lower rate.

After I started to get better, my then husband wanted me to get pregnant again immediately. I told him that I would only agree to get pregnant again if I had the choice to an abortion should the next pregnancy get to the point that the previous one did. He reluctantly agreed.

See, my doctor never even suggested that I might want to consider abortion because the pregnancy was taking such a toll on my health. My doctor did not do that because he had zero idea of the real hell I went through in that pregnancy. Sometimes only the pregnant woman knows the real toll that a pregnancy is taking on her. So she needs to have the right to make the decision based on things that only she knows.

That pregnancy is the reason that I support choice. That pregnancy taught me that a woman is the only one who really knows what is going on with her body and mind. And like every other human on this planet, that woman has the right to self defense.

Based on my real-life experience, one that I only learned because I went through the pregnancy from hell, nothing anyone says against choice will convince me that a woman should not have the right to protect her mental and physical health during pregnancy--to the point of her having the right to abort.

In natural law, every human has the right to self-defense.

Do some people use abortion as birth control? I'm sure that some do. But in the end, that is between them and God.
Great post Ele. These are unbelievably difficult questions, and a lot of people try to oversimplify them.

I'm curious, though, does the self-defense doctrine really apply generally (outside of a direct threat to the woman's life / rape which are minority situations) in the modern world? If it is the case that pregnancy results from a woman engaging in a behavior that she knows can (and often does) result in pregnancy. It isn't foisted on her (especially if we hold the same standard that is held to men, regarding pregnancy. Ie "well don't have sex if you don't want to have kids/child support")

In fact, the child is not some "invasive" creature, but rather something that was invited in, knowingly, by the woman who is sexually active. (excluding rape cases)

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #65 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 11:36 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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And your situation is a good reason to abort. In hindsight, long before modern medicine, your situation would have been life taking.
You are right. I would have died before modern medicine.

Months ago, about 7 of us women who post on TAM were talking about this topic in a social forum here on TAM. As it turned out, every one of us had a pregnancy that went south and that would have ended our lives -- every one of us.
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post #66 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 11:58 AM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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You are right. I would have died before modern medicine.

Months ago, about 7 of us women who post on TAM were talking about this topic in a social forum here on TAM. As it turned out, every one of us had a pregnancy that went south and that would have ended our lives -- every one of us.
My father was a pediatrics physician. One story he told me that has always stuck with me concerned his time as an intern/residency in NY. As an intern he had to ride with the EMT on calls. One call concerned a pregnant woman ready to give birth. He went with the EMT on the call. Delivery was made in the apartment the young couple lived. All went well. The young family had no money and lived very simply. The new father gave my dad a quarter(it was all he had). As my dad left with the EMT he placed the quarter under the coffee cup on the table. This incident took place in the late 50's. A quarter purchased a lot. I have many other stories of the ER that he was involved in but this one always stuck in my mind because it is what my dad was. A doctor first. Anything else that came along with that title like money, recognition and sometimes prestige did not matter to him. Only the kids mattered.

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post #67 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 12:09 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Great post Ele. These are unbelievably difficult questions, and a lot of people try to oversimplify them.
I agree.

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
I'm curious, though, does the self-defense doctrine really apply generally (outside of a direct threat to the woman's life / rape which are minority situations) in the modern world?
I think that self-defense doctrine does apply here.

There is a problem with the idea of only allowing abortion for rape and when a woman's life is at risk.

What would be the test for allowing rape as one of the few reasons a woman can have an abortion? Would she have to only say she'd been raped? Would she have to report the crime? Would it require a conviction of a rapist? Few rape charges ever lead to even an arrest, much less a trial. Convictions for rape are very rare. It can take months, even years, before a rapist goes to trial. Usually a baby resulting from rape is born long before any trial is even held, if it even goes that far.

If a woman had to prove rape, even if she was raped, few if any woman would be able to get an abortion based on rape because of the reasons I gave above. So, allowing abortion based on rape would only help the woman who suffer the worst, most violent rapes where it's evident that some guy beat her almost to death.

When I comes to the life of the mother, I can tell you from experience (as I tried to do in a post above this one) that often doctors are clueless and have little idea of what is really going on with the woman. There were complications in my pregnancy that the doctor ignored. Plus, knowing his religious convictions, I doubt that he would have agreed to an abortion no matter what I was going through.

In both of these cases, a many woman would be at the mercy of either a police/legal system that could not prove the rape and/or doctors who are clueless. (And yes many doctors are clueless.)


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If it is the case that pregnancy results from a woman engaging in a behavior that she knows can (and often does) result in pregnancy. It isn't foisted on her (especially if we hold the same standard that is held to men, regarding pregnancy. Ie "well don't have sex if you don't want to have kids/child support")


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In fact, the child is not some "invasive" creature, but rather something that was invited in, knowingly, by the woman who is sexually active. (excluding rape cases)
If human sex were only for the purpose of procreation, I would agree with you. But it's not. For humans, sex has a lot more to do with bonding people. We are driven to have sex for that purpose.

Plus, your statement assumes that the woman was not trying to prevent a pregnancy. Birth control fails all the time. It's far from 100%. Condoms rip or slide off.

Plus, often a woman does not realize that there is a problem until after she is pregnant.

What would you tell a young woman who is homeless and gets pregnant? She is unable to take care of herself, much less a child. Would you really tell her "tough cookies, you invited that baby by having sex. So now go back to live on the street while pregnant. Then once you have that baby, you and your baby can live on the street. ???????????????????????
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post #68 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 12:15 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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If one is going to supposedly care so much about life they should at least be consistent.


I agree with this. But people don't care about lives, just unborn babies lives. They don't care about animals lives, they don't care about sperms life, eggs life, they don't care about a convicted murder who is about it get the chairs life. They only care about unborn babies life for some reason. Once that unwanted baby is born nobody gives a sh*t about it.
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post #69 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 12:19 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

First trimester abortions should be allowed IMO for any reason.
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post #70 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 12:25 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Yes they are....as much as a bunch of cells.

I'm fine with the egg being alive as well.

Women don't cause an egg to disintegrate based on deliberate actions. Masterbating kills sperm and it's a deliberate act.

I really don't care who masterbates and am very pro choice, though I could support a limit on the abortion of a healthy fetus. As in last trimester.

I just don't like the double standard bullying of pregnant women based on subjective beliefs about life.

If one is going to supposedly care so much about life they should at least be consistent.
By that token, you should never brush your hair because you're killing hair follicle cells. Or eat yogurt because you're killing all the lactobacilli. By the accepted definition, sperm are NOT alive, and neither are eggs.


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That is pretty close, but it actually prevents/delays the release of a woman's egg via hormonal manipulation. If the egg is not released it can't be fertilized. The rogue sperm and the egg never meet, there is no "embryo" at all.
It actually does both. It can prevent ovulation, fertilization, and implantation.

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post #71 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 12:35 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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First trimester abortions should be allowed IMO for any reason.
There are some cases that I've read about.

Here is one of them. A woman has some tests done and finds out that her baby has a brain that is growing outside of it's skull. There is no way that this baby will live more than a few minutes after birth. She is 7 months pregnant. Would you really force this poor woman to carry a baby for 3 more month who she knows is not going to live? Would you trap her in that hell?


Another case. A woman has developed a bad infection that will lead to her death if not treated. If she takes the meds she needs, it will case the baby to be born with sever mental and physical defects. She's 7/8 months pregnant. Would you force her to not take the meds so she can have a chance at having a healthy baby, but then again she might just die killing both of them? Would you let her take the drugs but force her to keep a pregnancy with the knowledge that while she will most likely survive, her baby will be born with sever mental health and physical defects? Since you would not allow her an abortion, which of these horrific choice would you force her to endure?

I could go on and on with tough cases that women face even in the 3rd trimester. But we can start with these two.
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post #72 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 12:41 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Sperm has the same rights as a child in the womb. How is it abortion is not considered murder but when a pregnant woman is murdered it will be consider double homicide in a court of law?
I happen to think abortion IS murder so I have so problem with when a pregnant woman is murdered that it's consider double homicide. Abortion not being considered murder is inconsistent with our court system and the laws should be changed accordingly. The "pro-choice" stance really makes no sense. A person's "choice" shouldn't determine whether their child's life is taken from them. Taking a person's life is purely, simply murder.

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post #73 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 01:39 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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Fixed that for you. Anyone can take a life Ynot. Nature has afforded us the power to do it. Having the power does not equate to having the right.

This is a childish argument. The basic argument is that because someone is close in proximity to you, you now can kill them. Because "I'm sovereign". That is a childish, selfish mentality. You don't have the right [justification] for such an action just based on someone's proximity to you. Nor based on "I'm sovereign".

The childish argument is the one YOU are making. No one said anything about some one being proximate to you. A fetus is NOT proximate to a woman. It is WITHIN the woman and in HER body. Not yours or anybody else's. YOU have no say over what anyone else does to their body. You also confuse a fetus with life. The fetus can NOT survive without the woman's consent. So please stop making childish arguments.

Ethics are objective. We can misjudge them. We can be incorrect. But they exist. They aren't "mine" or "yours".

If you really believe they are subjective, then you have no right to complain when I foist mine on someone else, because those are my values, and they're equally valid. Moral Relativism is a joke and is only used to trick the proles.

Yes, I do have a right to complain, because me explaining to you that you have no right to foist your ethics on some one else does not violate yours. OTOH, you would attempt to use your ethics to control some one else's body, to which YOU have no right to do.

fixed that for you.

So, if my neighbor is luring children into their home to strangle them, then the response is "Whatever choice they make, they live with. Some will make a choice you don't agree with but it isn't your place to decide for anyone else".

The very obvious difference in your absurd argument, is that those children were not dependent upon the consent of your neighbor for their continued existence. But I guess that is another FACT you choose to ignore in favor of your feeling or belief that abortion is murder.

You aren't even attempting to argue in a serious fashion, are you? It's okay, we're all used to it. It's all the Pro-Choice aisle has. They can only be disingenuous in their arguments, because they have none to stand on, and they know it. This is the great failing of the "Pro-Life" side. They allow you to determine the ground we'll fight on, and they permit you to shift it to an argument of "feelings". I'll not budge an inch on that because feelings are not a basis for law. Ethics are.

You are correct which is exactly why abortions are legal, because your feelings are not hte basis of law.

This is my point Ynot, you are proving it. We are speaking completely different languages. You're arguing about feelings, while I'm arguing about ethics and facts. We can't hope to have a meaningful dialogue if we speak past each other.

Facts don't care about your feelings.
Nice try, but you aren't speaking of facts, you are the the one speaking of feelings. You feel that a fetus is life and because you feel that way, everyone else should act accordingly. But the FACT is that the fetus cannot survive without the consent of the woman. Whether you like it or not that is the FACT of how nature has made it.[/COLOR]

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post #74 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 01:52 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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What people rarely discuss is that abortions were legally and quasi-legally performed here in the US long before the landmark ruling on Roe v Wade in 1973. Pre Roe, women could receive abortion services in hospitals under certain circumstances. Some doctors would perform abortions for desperate women and simply record it as a "D&C". In my mothers case, she had to appear before a committee of doctors to obtain permission for her abortion. Once she showed that continuing the pregnancy and attempting delivery could endanger her life and future fertility, she was approved.
Yes, Roe v Wade was the result of attempts to restrict abortions. Apparently studying history has been replaced by listening to hyperbole spouted by fanatics. Another thing people don't understand is that through out human history abortions have been accepted as a part of life. Most governments and most societies (except for the most retrograde ones - think Saudi Arabia) have properly stayed away from attempting to criminalize abortion. Even the catholic church sanctioned abortions up to the ensoulment or quickening.

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post #75 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 01:56 PM
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Re: Abortion as a general topic

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God never intended to leave the choice up to women to make the choice. Please direct me to any part of the Bible or Dead Sea scrolls that states God said it is the woman's choice to abort what He has made. I'm not a holy roller and I'm ok with abortion in some cased but I can assure you God never said it is up to the woman.
God "said so" when he designed a world in which woman are the sole options of bringing a new life into this world. I couldn't really care less what the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Bible say, those are man made creations that have no bearing on God. You are confusing religion and God. I am always amazed at how so many ignore reality to worship a fiction created by man.

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