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post #16 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:26 AM
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Re: What do you think of this?

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I do think that is an interesting point. Where are the limits?

Just curious, though, Dave, does what was said bother you?
not sure the limits, but yes, I don't accept blatant racism.

I am not sure that any derogatory verbiage is really worse than another. Bullying on racism vs size, for example, one is not really worse than the other, imo. It is still being a bully. Political correctness really makes one a crime and the other a nuisance, which is garbage.

We are keen on racism/sexism in the US aimed at African/Mexican Americans and women, but not really to other groups, unfortunately. So we are not an equal opportunity 'firer' for these things. Only to specific groups, which is reverse racism/sexism.

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post #17 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:27 AM
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Re: What do you think of this?

Interestingly enough, I know Clay County incredibly well. In my first recruiting assignment, I covered Clay County. It was the best producing area for which I was responsible while serving as a recruiter.

IIRC, the population is around about 10K for the whole county. It is incredibly rural. I would be surprised if 5% of the total population was/is other than white. That 1,500 people protested from the county with that few people says something I suppose.

I spent hours there, in homes talking to kids and parents, in Clay County High School, traveling to watch their football team compete, posting Army literature in every mom and pop store in the three state highways that are the main thoroughfares. I was involved there for the better part of 2 1/2 years of my life.

Most of the people there were very good, salt-of-the-earth people. That said, many of the homes I was in (many being 1/4 to 1/5) ended up discussing racial overtones, or concerns about race for their children if they were to join the Army. Most of those conversations were of concern due to stereotypes of some form or another, and were not necessarily based in hatred, but just simple stereotypes due to living in rural areas without many others that "did not look like them". However, there were a few that were actually based in hatred.

My thoughts? She should have never been reinstated. There is no place for this behavior if it was deliberate. If it was not deliberate, she does not possess enough political awareness to hold the proverbial megaphone which represents her county government.

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post #18 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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Re: What do you think of this?

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Originally Posted by naiveonedave View Post
not sure the limits, but yes, I don't accept blatant racism.

I am not sure that any derogatory verbiage is really worse than another. Bullying on racism vs size, for example, one is not really worse than the other, imo. It is still being a bully. Political correctness really makes one a crime and the other a nuisance, which is garbage.

We are keen on racism/sexism in the US aimed at African/Mexican Americans and women, but not really to other groups, unfortunately. So we are not an equal opportunity 'firer' for these things. Only to specific groups, which is reverse racism/sexism.
So you feel that there is, in a sense, "favoritism" in who suffers consequences for racism, or any other type of discrimination?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #19 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:33 AM Thread Starter
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Re: What do you think of this?

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Interestingly enough, I know Clay County incredibly well. In my first recruiting assignment, I covered Clay County. It was the best producing area for which I was responsible while serving as a recruiter.

IIRC, the population is around about 10K for the whole county. It is incredibly rural. I would be surprised if 5% of the total population was/is other than white. That 1,500 people protested from the county with that few people says something I suppose.

I spent hours there, in homes talking to kids and parents, in Clay County High School, traveling to watch their football team compete, posting Army literature in every mom and pop store in the three state highways that are the main thoroughfares. I was involved there for the better part of 2 1/2 years of my life.

Most of the people there were very good, salt-of-the-earth people. That said, many of the homes I was in (many being 1/4 to 1/5) ended up discussing racial overtones, or concerns about race for their children if they were to join the Army. Most of those conversations were of concern due to stereotypes of some form or another, and were not necessarily based in hatred, but just simple stereotypes due to living in rural areas without many others that "did not look like them". However, there were a few that were actually based in hatred.

My thoughts? She should have never been reinstated. There is no place for this behavior if it was deliberate. If it was not deliberate, she does not possess enough political awareness to hold the proverbial megaphone which represents her county government.
I think the bolded is spot on, far. Without enough experience with others, it is easy to be fearful.

And, in fairness, sometimes it is experience that *provokes* fear in us.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #20 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:34 AM
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Re: What do you think of this?

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So you feel that there is, in a sense, "favoritism" in who suffers consequences for racism, or any other type of discrimination?
pretty much. We have 'protected groups'. Either protect everyone or no one.
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post #21 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:36 AM Thread Starter
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Re: What do you think of this?

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pretty much. We have 'protected groups'. Either protect everyone or no one.
Does that not lead to political correctness, Dave?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #22 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:36 AM
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Re: What do you think of this?

Not good, not helpful, fuels the claim that discrimination runs rampant in our country.

Michele herself has made a number of controversial remarks [not this bad]. Two wrongs do not make a right.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #23 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:38 AM
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Re: What do you think of this?

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Does that not lead to political correctness, Dave?
exactly. I find it very disingenuous that certain words can be used by one group, but not by all, for example.
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post #24 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:39 AM
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Re: What do you think of this?

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I find it disturbing that utilizing free speech can cost you your job. too much intrusion...
You seem to not know what the amendment is there to protect you from.
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post #25 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:41 AM
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Re: What do you think of this?

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You seem to not know what the amendment is there to protect you from.
I know exactly what it protects me from. That doesn't mean that the ideal should not be more universal.

Also, the OP was a government official getting axed for free speech, so it probably directly applies.

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post #26 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:41 AM
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Re: What do you think of this?

Lots of things provoke fear. Most of it is rooted in the unknown, or the presumption that something is known when it is fact not known at all.

I will tell you a secret (not really a secret)...

People will continue to do and say stupid things as long as people are involved. In other words, indefinitely...

The key is not in focusing on the fact that they screwed up, because it will ALWAYS happen. The key is for oppressor to focus on remorse, and the wronged to work on forgiveness as long as remorse (not regret) is present.

Humility on both sides can go a long way to that end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jld View Post
I think the bolded is spot on, far. Without enough experience with others, it is easy to be fearful.

And, in fairness, sometimes it is experience that *provokes* fear in us.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #27 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
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Re: What do you think of this?

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Originally Posted by farsidejunky View Post
Lots of things provoke fear. Most of it is rooted in the unknown, or the presumption that something is known when it is fact not known at all.

I will tell you a secret (not really a secret)...

People will continue to do and say stupid things as long as people are involved. In other words, indefinitely...

The key is not in focusing on the fact that they screwed up, because it will ALWAYS happen. The key is for oppressor to focus on remorse, and the wronged to work on forgiveness as long as remorse (not regret) is present.

Humility on both sides can go a long way to that end.
But what would Michelle need to have done differently, far? How would she need to be humble?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #28 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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Re: What do you think of this?

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You seem to not know what the amendment is there to protect you from.
It might be good to elaborate, Herschel.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #29 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:58 AM
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Re: What do you think of this?

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I'm not surprised. Government employees are almost impossible to fire.
It depends on the state, but in "employment at will" states it's pretty easy and straight-forward. You can fire a person for any reason at all, as long as it's not an illegal reason. In practice, you really only want to terminate for a documented reason, lest an "illegal" reason be crafted up and the employer finds itself in a fight it can't win.

But the First Amendment comes into play for public employers in a way it doesn't for private employers, and despite some big Supreme Court cases it's still a pretty mushy area, social media posts being one of the mushiest. We had an employee who was saying stuff on FB pretty similar to what was expressed in the original post, and we told him to remove any reference to working for us on his page. He complied, so as long as this remains the case and he doesn't post during work hours, there's nothing much else we can do.

Since the post at issue was on FB, and if she didn't post it during work hours, she had at least an arguable First Amendment argument for wrongful termination.
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post #30 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 11:00 AM
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Re: What do you think of this?

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There is a difference here as a person of color had the comment directed at them. This creates a racial overtone and for good reason. It is racially motivated. To say this about Melania does not carry similar racial overtone as it does for the Michelle.
And why not? A slur is still a slur, I don't care what's your background. "Racist" seems to be used whenever certain groups want to hide from any kind of criticism.

At what point will the country move out of the 60's and into the modern age?


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At the end of the day, if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all.
Truer words have never been spoken.
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