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post #241 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 07:05 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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You won't eliminate any taxes with a centralized government. You will find that small communities will not receive the school funding that large communities will.

Again, as with the NPV, representation will be gone. Those small towns won't be important. The problems will be exacerbated, not solved.

The lack of representation will become accepted as a consequence of living life in a rural community. That means those children who would like to get out through education, won't have the same opportunities as those who live in larger communities.
That's the case already, since rural communities refuse to or are unable to spend serious money on education.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2013...ederal-funding

Meanwhile, the suburban schools and some of the urban schools get much more funding and are far better as a result.

In my birth country, there's a single department of education, a single national curriculum, and so on. Books are free, and the government provides laptops or tablets to lower income kids. Younger teachers end up teaching in rural areas before moving to larger cities.

Standardized testing and otherwise they run circles around most kids from the USA, unless we're talking very avant garde type college prep schools.

Is that system better? Not sure, as offerings in subjects like art, humanities, and such suck. There's little to no technology classes. No sports. No band.

Hopefully we can study other systems and see if we can learn a thing or two...

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post #242 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 11:11 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

John, I hate to do this but the discussion about Cajun ain't gonna complete without a dose of the Savoy clan. The chick, Ann, is purportedly a distant cousin.


If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #243 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 03:19 AM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

john,

You're spending time complaining about overlapping taxes, and then telling me I'm correct, while making an argument FOR centralized government.

What's wrong with that picture? Don't we have centralized education now? Common core has been forced on everyone, right?

I'm not following your circular logic. It's all rhetoric and posturing. It provides no solution remotely like you've been claiming, however, will cause extreme confusion for several years while children and parents clamor to figure out what is required of them.

Taxes will go up. It's inevitable. It doesn't eliminate overlapping taxes, since all those taxes are considered needed.

There will have to be investigations into what all those taxes are used to do, whether they are necessary and which might be eliminated. That will take years while we wait for some independent(?) authority to work through all the twists and turns.

In the end, revolution is what you must be suggesting. It's the only way to make such sweeping changes and not have to go back and prove fault or accountability.

I am not for revolution. I am for going back to the Constitution, a document you claim is not relevant, but continue to prove that people don't change. If what you are concluding is true, then the document is relevant.

It's those who have looked the other way while their cronies just syphoned a little for their own interests, and then later were allowed to syphon their own revenue, that are the issue.

That's people john, not the Constitution. While laws passed in the past 150 years may be in question, those original tenets are still relevant. They were ideals for the ages.

Change the government and you simply change how the revenue is portioned out and who receives the rewards. You will not reduce, simplify or make anyone accountable for their actions. Simply look at Venezuela for a modern example.

Please stop commenting about your home country unless you are willing to share the name of it. It makes little difference in your argument when it can't be called into question.

"I'm significant!! Screamed the dust speck." - Bill Watterson

"And this, too, shall pass away."

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post #244 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 06:05 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

Does it matter which country it is? They're all kicking out tail. from Estonia to Cyprus and from Turkey to Finland.

If you think Common Core is centralized education, it ain't. I mean identical books, curriculum, school schedule, and teachers all work for the same entity. Even exam questions. Similar to my wife's country.

There's no circular logic. These systems produce great graduates, esp in stem. But people fall thru the cracks too... I know I did. My older daughter would. But we can learn a thing or two from them.

Small steps first. Low hanging fruit. And stop villifying teachers. Back home there is no teachers union 😁
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post #245 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 08:43 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

The supporters of state rights conveniently ignore the inefficiency of local government, as well as the ineffectiveness. I'm not saying that a central government will do any better. But what we currently have isn't working either.

Even in my home country. We went from having villages with elected officials to administrative clusters. One such cluster never responded to repeated phone and email requests to get copies of birth certificates. I had to send a friend over to get them. The human nature part of bureaucracy.

There's no perfect way. There are ways that work well and ways that don't work quite so well. By refusing to even consider what works elsewhere we simply proliferate the bad, which is exactly what people want.

Power to the states is great for them since the GOP controls 2/3rds of them... But many red states are basketcases.

Then you have rampant ignorance. The one about state national guard was startling. Come on people. It's our country, at least look at what works.

I'll close with another story from the USA this time. We've had drainage issues in two houses. In one case I involved the federal government - USDA soil conservation - and a proper site design was done and the issue fixed.

In the second case I involved the city and county, only to be told it's only an issue if my Mini Cooper floats all the way to Tennessee. No action (storm drain maintenance).

Good luck.
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post #246 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 05:06 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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There's no perfect way. There are ways that work well and ways that don't work quite so well. By refusing to even consider what works elsewhere we simply proliferate the bad, which is exactly what people want.
Attempting to fix what was not broken just for the sake of progression is what got us here in the first place. It is why we have so many overlapping taxes and bureaucracies.

Let's not make it worse. Let's take back what is our responsibility and get big brother out of our lives, just like it was intended.

"I'm significant!! Screamed the dust speck." - Bill Watterson

"And this, too, shall pass away."
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post #247 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 05:25 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

Not broken?

ROFLMAO...
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post #248 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 05:36 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Here's a hint. Virtually ALL countries with a rigid department of education outscore us by leaps and bounds.

If you're lucky you live in a great school district. If not... Good luck convincing the board to use the same freaking algebra book as the district next town over, and save a bit of money in the process.
Two of my kids attended a premier private school. School districts which spend more per year per student than that private school cost include New York City, Newark NJ, St. Louis MO, and Los Angeles.

Money has virtually nothing to do with quality of education. Federal centralized education standards have nothing to do with quality of education, and probably have a net negative correlation to outcome.
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post #249 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 05:48 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Then you have rampant ignorance. The one about state national guard was startling. Come on people. It's our country, at least look at what works.
Ah, you're calling me rampantly ignorant. Here's the post and my response.

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Thor, you do realize that your state's national guard is funded by the federal government right?

So, unless Wikipedia is making it up or your state has a state funded militia - doubtful - I suggest you reassess the above...
While my state national guard is heavily subsidized by the feds, if it came to a serious disagreement leading to a serious confrontation, the national guard is staffed, trained, armed, and located within my state. Chances are any such conflict would involve numerous states. Thus there is a real threat to the fedgov that if they were to step far enough out of line, an army is capable of taking them on. At that point we would stop receiving federal monies but we would also stop sending money to the feds and would be able to fund the national guard ourselves. We are talking a serious emergency situation, not some minor disagreement on whether a road needs to be repaved.

Let me repeat that I am not talking about some minor disagreement but a serious problem with a federal government which becomes tyrannical. Each state has an army known as the National Guard. Well staffed, well equipped, and well trained. One might even describe them as Well Regulated, using 18th century vernacular. They are even officially the Organized Militia.

Yup, each state has an Organized Militia in their National Guard (and Naval Reserve) which is complemented by the Unorganized Militia consisting of able bodied law abiding adults who are not members of the Organized Militia.. Reference the 2nd Amendment and the purpose stated in the Prefatory Clause that a Well Regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a Free State.

We have independent states so that our freedoms cannot be usurped by an out of control distantly located central government which has all the power, all the authority, and all the guns. The original agreement to create the union included the ability for states to leave. Obviously it is a difficult thing to do but nevertheless the feds need to feel some level of fear. Humans being humans, when power is concentrated in a few people they always abuse it.

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There's a lot more to independence than chest thumbing and sloganeering. I offered the examples of corrupt local government as an indication that what is alleged to happen at the federal level happens at any level of government.
Political independence means my state has its own laws, independent of other states and independent of the federal government. It means I do not have allegiance nor obligation to other states. It means the federal government has limited powers.

Recall that the fedgov is constituted by the states and is delegated powers by the states. The federal government is not superior to the states, it is a servant of the states. The Constitution provides superiority in law only in those few limited areas designated because the purpose of the federal government is to regularize interstate matters but has no authority in intra-state matters.

Your example of corrupt local government is proof of the need for independent states. If a state becomes thoroughly corrupt such as Illinois or NJ, residents can vote with their feet by moving to another state. There is a 100% chance an omnipotent federal government will be corrupt and tyrannical. Independent states are the alternative choices.

Last edited by Thor; 01-12-2017 at 05:54 PM.
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post #250 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 06:18 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

Relying on the National Guard for protection against the Federal government is not a good idea. There's a reason it's called the "National Guard", which is that the feds can nationalize it whenever they want to. I expect that any members who didn't follow federal orders would be in line for charges of treason.

Of course, this assumes the revolt would be unsuccessful, but that's what happened the last time...

And as far as your analysis of state vs. federal powers, yes, that's what the Founders intended, but one of the biggest problems with government is that it is a judge in its own case, which means no one in conflict with it can expect to get a fair hearing. This is not merely theoretical, because we have seen federal power expanded enormously as a result of federal actions that were not contemplated in the Constitution but to which the Supreme Court acquiesced, sometimes due to threats by the executive branch but sometimes "just because".


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post #251 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 06:43 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Relying on the National Guard for protection against the Federal government is not a good idea. There's a reason it's called the "National Guard", which is that the feds can nationalize it whenever they want to. I expect that any members who didn't follow federal orders would be in line for charges of treason.

Of course, this assumes the revolt would be unsuccessful, but that's what happened the last time...
There was the Mormon War where an armed populace successfully held off the federal government. It can and does work. BTW, my state's sheriffs have also sworn to forcibly repel federal agents who try to confiscate guns.

No, not something for minor disagreements. Let's find ways to fix the problem before it becomes a shooting war. But, that is why the 2A is there in the first place.

John and many like him argue that there is no hope in fighting the federal government, thus the 2A should be eliminated. And, he argues there is corruption at all levels of government, which for some reason makes independent states a bad idea (because they will be corrupt), but a strong central government is a good idea.

I think really those kinds of arguments that the fedgov is already a corrupt juggernaut is proof of the necessity of draining the swamp and doing everything possible to pull power back from the fedgov to the states.
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post #252 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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I think really those kinds of arguments that the fedgov is already a corrupt juggernaut is proof of the necessity of draining the swamp and doing everything possible to pull power back from the fedgov to the states.
That's the way I lean, too.

I also agree with this below.

Quote:
...we have seen federal power expanded enormously as a result of federal actions that were not contemplated in the Constitution but to which the Supreme Court acquiesced, sometimes due to threats by the executive branch but sometimes "just because".

"I'm significant!! Screamed the dust speck." - Bill Watterson

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post #253 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 08:37 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Two of my kids attended a premier private school. School districts which spend more per year per student than that private school cost include New York City, Newark NJ, St. Louis MO, and Los Angeles.

Money has virtually nothing to do with quality of education. Federal centralized education standards have nothing to do with quality of education, and probably have a net negative correlation to outcome.
If you live in a higher cost of living area it's a given that things will cost more... Also if the premier school is parochial a lot of costs will be lower...

Now, we don't need to federalize everything, but tell me, is an algebra book in Texas any different than the same material book in Connecticut? Do you not see the monumental waste that's added to schools via textbook costs?

The good schools already have a national curriculum. It's called AP or IB. My younger daughter started college with 44 credits, nearly all via AP and IB. And, heaven forbid, the IB curriculum is European!! The horrors.

In my country (but of course) there's one set of books nationwide. The books are available online and kids get a free tablet or laptop. The textbooks are quite good, maybe not McGraw Hill or Pearson quality but certainly good enough to allow the average rural kid to outscore most any kid from America, premier school or not.

Think if you were a multinational company. Would you like one type of laptop, maybe 2 or 3, or a free for all for your tens of thousands of employees? The GOP sacrifices cost and quality for the mirage of local control...
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post #254 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 08:47 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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There was the Mormon War where an armed populace successfully held off the federal government. It can and does work. BTW, my state's sheriffs have also sworn to forcibly repel federal agents who try to confiscate guns.

No, not something for minor disagreements. Let's find ways to fix the problem before it becomes a shooting war. But, that is why the 2A is there in the first place.

John and many like him argue that there is no hope in fighting the federal government, thus the 2A should be eliminated. And, he argues there is corruption at all levels of government, which for some reason makes independent states a bad idea (because they will be corrupt), but a strong central government is a good idea.

I think really those kinds of arguments that the fedgov is already a corrupt juggernaut is proof of the necessity of draining the swamp and doing everything possible to pull power back from the fedgov to the states.
That's Rush Limbaugh level sophistry.... Wikipedia mentioned three wars, two between the Mormons and Missouri and one in Utah which was resolved not via firearms but when the Mormons gave up in exchange for amnesty... Last I checked, this is 2017, and the feds aren't (and haven't) going to stop, 2A or not 2A. Maybe your (Federally funded ) state national guard will be more accommodating.

But hey, militia vs feds is always good on TV.
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post #255 of 331 (permalink) Old 01-12-2017, 09:46 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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There was the Mormon War where an armed populace successfully held off the federal government. It can and does work. BTW, my state's sheriffs have also sworn to forcibly repel federal agents who try to confiscate guns.

No, not something for minor disagreements. Let's find ways to fix the problem before it becomes a shooting war. But, that is why the 2A is there in the first place.

John and many like him argue that there is no hope in fighting the federal government, thus the 2A should be eliminated. And, he argues there is corruption at all levels of government, which for some reason makes independent states a bad idea (because they will be corrupt), but a strong central government is a good idea.

I think really those kinds of arguments that the fedgov is already a corrupt juggernaut is proof of the necessity of draining the swamp and doing everything possible to pull power back from the fedgov to the states.
I'm an AnCap, so I'm obviously not arguing in favor of a strong (or any) central government, and I'm also a big fan of 2A. And of course I hope the swamp can be drained ASAP, and am feeling as though this is an actual possibility for the first time in my life.

BTW, I don't think "progressives" realize how lucky they are that Trump was elected. He was the last hope to avoid civil war.

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