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post #16 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 02:50 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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You EC advocates think it's right that, in a state with, say 10,000,000 people and 10 electoral votes, if 5,000,001 people vote for candidate A and 4,999,999 vote for candidate B, that Candidate A gets 10 electoral votes? Talk about disenfranchisement.

Yes, we have states like CA where twice as many voted for one candidate as for the other, but the loser would still get credit for the votes they received, unlike the EC system where those voters'opinions are completely discounted.

States should not have more power than people in the electoral process.
If a state wishes to allot their EVs proportionally, I am fine with that and they are legally welcome to do so. They need only to change their own statute. Maine allocates two EVs based on the statewide majority and the remaining EVs based on the vote tally in each congressional district.

I don't object to NPV so much as the corresponding increase in federal power that it represents. When the EC was created, states had some measure of sovereignty and it was accepted that there are some things that just wouldn't be done at the federal level. Now the mission seems to be to federalize as much as possible.

More directly, how much involvement do you want the federal government to have in your state and local elections that happen to coincide with a presidential election? Do you want the federal government dictating if voter ID will be required? Where polling places are located and what the hours are?


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post #17 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 03:21 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Originally Posted by Joey2k View Post
You EC advocates think it's right that, in a state with, say 10,000,000 people and 10 electoral votes, if 5,000,001 people vote for candidate A and 4,999,999 vote for candidate B, that Candidate A gets 10 electoral votes? Talk about disenfranchisement.

Yes, we have states like CA where twice as many voted for one candidate as for the other, but the loser would still get credit for the votes they received, unlike the EC system where those voters'opinions are completely discounted.

States should not have more power than people in the electoral process.
The EC system provides a balance.

However if you don't like the way your state has an all-or-nothing EC vote then the problem is within your state. Each state can choose how their Electors vote. Your state could choose to vote proportionally. In your example, candidates A and B would each get 5 electoral votes.
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post #18 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 03:37 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

The original idea was the federal government would be akin to a committee made up of states' representatives. Not the citizens but the government of each state would send a representative to sit on this committee. The states, not the citizens, would select the chairman of this committee. Just like we create a committee at work to organize a project and we designate one member as the chairman to be responsible to ensure the tasks are executed.

The citizens select their state government. The state government do the tasks which individuals could not do by themselves, such as build roads or provide police protection. But some tasks are bigger than an individual state could do, such as defend against foreign attack. So the states band together via this committee.

The citizens, being a bit protective of their freedom, send a few Representatives to this federal committee who are directly responsible to the citizens, thus maintaining a check against the States' selected members on the federal committee.

So the vast bulk of governing the people was intended to be done locally or at the state level. Very little would be done by the federal government. Mostly the federal government would be defending the nation and regularizing interactions across state lines.

And so the EC is the way the states select the chairman of the federal committee. The President is tasked by the States to execute faithfully the tasks of the federal committee.

Really the original structure of the USA was brilliant. The individuals held the power. The states were sovereign over the federal government. The President was not terribly powerful nor very important to the individual citizen.

People want a government big enough to give them everything they want, but have created a monster powerful enough to control everything about their lives and take away everything they value.

Last edited by Thor; 12-24-2016 at 03:47 PM.
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post #19 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 05:01 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

My two cents is that under the current system, Republicans in Maryland and Delaware... and Democrats in Alabama and Wyoming have no reason to go vote. Their votes will have no influence on the election.

Many other nations have peaceful transfers of power with systems that simply declare the winner to be the one with the most votes.

Trump supporters, I am not suggesting that Trump's victory is invalid. I prefer future elections to depend on the popular vote regardless of which side won the last election.
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post #20 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

I truly don't understand. I don't understand how those who advocate for NPV don't understand how it would affect the country negatively. Maybe they just don't care about anyone else? I don't know. I just don't get it at all.

It's been this way since the founding of the country and many Dems and progressives have been voted in. How else would we have the laws that you're so afraid you will lose?

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post #21 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 07:34 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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I truly don't understand. I don't understand how those who advocate for NPV don't understand how it would affect the country negatively. Maybe they just don't care about anyone else? I don't know. I just don't get it at all.

It's been this way since the founding of the country and many Dems and progressives have been voted in. How else would we have the laws that you're so afraid you will lose?
They lost, so they want to change the rules.

It's as simple as that, and if you don't believe me, look at the insane attempts to overturn the electoral college results by threatening or bribing electors.

BTW, I'm totally fine with the states allocating electors proportionally, which several people have mentioned. That is completely Constitutional and doesn't rip off the small states, while giving representation to the minority party in big states.

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post #22 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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They lost, so they want to change the rules.

It's as simple as that, and if you don't believe me, look at the insane attempts to overturn the electoral college results by threatening or bribing electors.

BTW, I'm totally fine with the states allocating electors proportionally, which several people have mentioned. That is completely Constitutional and doesn't rip off the small states, while giving representation to the minority party in big states.
It's odd that there is so much fear. I can understand some. I had it when Obama became president. I'm still here. I still have to do similar things to what I was before he was elected. Things have changed under him. Some changes were probably for the best and some not so much.

Life goes on. I don't understand the intensity of emotions or the willingness to change so much that many would consider breaking the law to force their ideas on the many. It just doesn't make sense to me. It seems contrary to what I thought progressive and liberal meant.

Even so, Trump has helped to keep almost a thousand jobs in the country. He has turned down the new fighter and caused other companies to compete for the best price and model we can get for the money. He is compiling one of the greatest set of advisors any president has ever had. He has without a law forcing him, separated himself from his business dealings as best he can, at the request of those who want to handcuff him.

I just don't get it. I truly don't. Anarchy is not better than the alternative.

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post #23 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 08:25 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Originally Posted by 2ntnuf View Post
I truly don't understand. I don't understand how those who advocate for NPV don't understand how it would affect the country negatively. Maybe they just don't care about anyone else? I don't know. I just don't get it at all.

It's been this way since the founding of the country and many Dems and progressives have been voted in. How else would we have the laws that you're so afraid you will lose?
Kindly explain how it will impact the country negatively...
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post #24 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 08:36 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Even so, Trump has helped to keep almost a thousand jobs in the country. He has turned down the new fighter and caused other companies to compete for the best price and model we can get for the money. He is compiling one of the greatest set of advisors any president has ever had.
The scary part is that while we progressives were fully cognizant, for the most part, of the deficiencies of "our" candidate(s) or "leader(s)", the above is so Kool Aid laced it is not even worthy of serious consideration...

Greatest set of advisors... Good one. Maybe my cat could be the next head of Homeland Security....
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post #25 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Kindly explain how it will impact the country negatively...
By disenfranchising voters in states with low populations.


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post #26 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 08:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Originally Posted by john117 View Post
The scary part is that while we progressives were fully cognizant, for the most part, of the deficiencies of "our" candidate(s) or "leader(s)", the above is so Kool Aid laced it is not even worthy of serious consideration...

Greatest set of advisors... Good one. Maybe my cat could be the next head of Homeland Security....
Hopefully homeland security will be dismantled. It's redundant and expensive. It is more about taking away freedoms.

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post #27 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 09:07 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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By disenfranchising voters in states with low populations.
Hardly. One vote in Wyoming would count as much as one vote in NYC.

Unlike the current system.
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post #28 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 09:08 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Hopefully homeland security will be dismantled. It's redundant and expensive. It is more about taking away freedoms.
Because we had so many more freedoms before DHS
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post #29 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 09:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Hardly. One vote in Wyoming counts as much as one vote in NYC.

Unlike the current system.
I think I understand what you are saying. If the population of the country is centered in the east and in and around large cities, how will that vote in Wyoming have as much weight as those in areas with more dense populations? Won't candidates only spend their money in areas which could help them win the election? They wouldn't need to stop in many Midwestern states. By the time they get a chance to vote, wouldn't the election already have been won?

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post #30 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 09:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Because we had so many more freedoms before DHS
hmm...you don't seem to refute my assertion, only belittle it.

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