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post #61 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-25-2016, 05:54 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

Will we believe anything to get our way? California has been talking secession for years. Trumps election and the perceived unhappiness of our nation has aroused the interest of our enemies. Yes, enemies. You can be naïve enough to believe they love the United States, but I won't. Their interest has always been to control the world.


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On paper, the leader of the California secession movement lives in an apartment complex near San Diego’s Golden Hill neighborhood. But in reality, the Calexit campaign is being run by a 30-year-old who lives and works in a city on the edge of Siberia.

Louis Marinelli heads the secessionist group Yes California. Following the election of Donald Trump to the presidency, the organization has gone from an unknown fringe group to one discussed seriously in mainstream media.

What has not been discussed as prominently is Marinelli’s deep ties to Russia.

A former right-wing activist from Buffalo, New York, Marinelli first moved to Russia almost a decade ago. He studied at St. Petersburg State University, the alma mater of Russian President Vladimir Putin. He returned to the United States to campaign against LGBTQ rights as part of the National Organization for Marriage.

In fact, Marinelli’s movement was covered almost exclusively in outlets funded by the Russian government and Communist Party before picking up more mainstream attention in the past few months.

The ascendancy of his secessionist organization says just as much about the state of media as it does about the Russian government’s ability to sway U.S. public opinion.
Read the rest here: From His Home in Russia, #Calexit Leader Plots California Secession | Election 2016 | The California Report | KQED News


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post #62 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-25-2016, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Originally Posted by john117 View Post
The total order is split between Airbus and Boeing. I have no idea of the product mix. Maybe we should ticked off the Iranians to give the whole order to Airbus
Can you tie this into what I posted about Iran refusing to pay the full agreed upon amount to Boeing? I'm not sure that Airbus' work was included in the original contract with Boeing? Maybe they had their own? Either way, your assertion, whether true or not, has little bearing on Iran refusing to pay the agreed upon costs.

I don't mind you refuting me. I look forward to being wrong. I don't want this stuff to be true. However, these comments are off the mark and only attempt to confuse and realign thoughts to some irrelevant directions.

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post #63 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-25-2016, 06:19 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
Here's my math. If somebody takes California, with about 12% of the US population, they get 20% of the electoral votes needed to win. Throw in NY and Pennsylvania and you've got 40%. Yet these three states are roughly 22% of the US population.
That sounds like another reason to get rid of the EC 😁😁😁
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post #64 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-25-2016, 06:22 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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It's odd that there is so much fear. I can understand some. I had it when Obama became president. I'm still here. I still have to do similar things to what I was before he was elected. Things have changed under him. Some changes were probably for the best and some not so much.

Life goes on. I don't understand the intensity of emotions or the willingness to change so much that many would consider breaking the law to force their ideas on the many. It just doesn't make sense to me. It seems contrary to what I thought progressive and liberal meant.

Even so, Trump has helped to keep almost a thousand jobs in the country. He has turned down the new fighter and caused other companies to compete for the best price and model we can get for the money. He is compiling one of the greatest set of advisors any president has ever had. He has without a law forcing him, separated himself from his business dealings as best he can, at the request of those who want to handcuff him.

I just don't get it. I truly don't. Anarchy is not better than the alternative.
First of all, anarchy has no relationship to this issue. I'm an anarchist, and I support Trump.

As to why the "progressives" are so freaked out, that is because the "mainstream media" have spent the last 9 months or so spreading fake news that paints Trump as the reincarnation of Hitler. I can easily understand why anyone who relies on those bozos and criminals is worried about the end of the world; what I don't understand is why anyone would rely on them when they have been proven to be part of the Clinton Crime Machine.

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post #65 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-25-2016, 06:23 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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The EC doesn't match the state's population. For example, compared to the state of Wyoming, California should have something like 250 EC points.

EC is an advantage to slave states.

Either way, the EC didn't follow the law, as they voted in someone who isn't qualified and is a Russian puppet. He *WILL* all be the guy who worked with Putin and his intenet hackers and trolls.
Wow, so there still are slave states! Who knew?

Is there a "Slave States for Dummies" book about that?

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post #66 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-25-2016, 06:26 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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I guess the concept of a thought experiment eludes you.
Only if it would produce a result he doesn't want.

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post #67 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-25-2016, 06:32 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Originally Posted by 2ntnuf View Post
Can you tie this into what I posted about Iran refusing to pay the full agreed upon amount to Boeing? I'm not sure that Airbus' work was included in the original contract with Boeing? Maybe they had their own? Either way, your assertion, whether true or not, has little bearing on Iran refusing to pay the agreed upon costs.

I don't mind you refuting me. I look forward to being wrong. I don't want this stuff to be true. However, these comments are off the mark and only attempt to confuse and realign thoughts to some irrelevant directions.
I don't see any references to "refusing" to pay... I see references to negotiation with both suppliers...

https://www.google.com/amp/247wallst...rbus-jets/amp/

This has some details on numbers and prices.

The 50 737 max cost about 110m each, around 11b$ total, and the remaining 30 are 777's at about 250m each, around 7.5b$. Total of 18.5b$, minus friends and family discount for large orders is about right for the quoted price of 16.5b$...
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post #68 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-25-2016, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post
First of all, anarchy has no relationship to this issue. I'm an anarchist, and I support Trump.

As to why the "progressives" are so freaked out, that is because the "mainstream media" have spent the last 9 months or so spreading fake news that paints Trump as the reincarnation of Hitler. I can easily understand why anyone who relies on those bozos and criminals is worried about the end of the world; what I don't understand is why anyone would rely on them when they have been proven to be part of the Clinton Crime Machine.
Agreed, anarchy is caused by a lack of laws. Socialism is a glut of laws. Control at every level of life.

I guess my thoughts were, why are we relying on "those bozos and criminals"? Are there that many folks who think they report the truth rather than spin for their personal agenda?

I guess so.

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post #69 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-25-2016, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

@john117,

from the article:
Quote:
While Parvaresh’s remarks about Boeing were mainly political, the comments related to Airbus were concrete. Iran Air plans to chop the total value of the Airbus deal from an original estimate of around $27 billion to about $10 billion.

Sorry, I didn't know the airbus was a model of Boeing airplane.

Isn't that proof of refusal to pay the full price? Maybe I misunderstand and they only want to cut back the number of planes till it reaches about half the original quote?

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post #70 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-25-2016, 07:52 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

Eeeeeeeeeeek🙄🙄🙄

Airbus Industries is a European consortium that builds commercial passenger planes. They're the main competitor to Boeing.

What they did may have been the usual negotiation for such things. Find one vendor, sign some non legally binding "deal" (with Airbus) then shop around for a better deal (with Boeing) and go back and find some reason to trim the original order (from Airbus). Pretty savvy.

See, it is not a good idea to have two vendors because of cross training needs, maintenance costs, and so on. Part of the reason low cost carriers like Southwest or Ryanair use a single plane (737 usually) is to keep costs down. If you're Iran tho, the advantage of having two vendors is important in case of sanctions etc.

(Not a fan of Airbus tho. My last trip to Europe was on a 340... Yikes. Cramped, lavatories in the basement...)

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post #71 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-25-2016, 08:43 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Originally Posted by john117 View Post
That sounds like another reason to get rid of the EC ������
Now you're on to a the real problem with the EC. What funny to me is Jill Stein jumping up and down, now with the electoral college, when the plan failed for her to skim Trump votes from people who wouldn't vote for Hillery but were afraid of Trump's environmental position. Come on, you know there's a hidden left wing agenda in her post election crusade.
Nevertheless, like or hate the Donald, he has and is causing a lot of folks to have conniption fits.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #72 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-26-2016, 11:28 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

The EC should go. Then during presidential elections - the candidates will be MUCH MORE motivated to visit ALL states.

Who said there are slave states now? The EC was part of helping out slave states back then. Again, the number of EC votes do NOT match the population of each state. Also, taken to the effect that say Texas, in which the russian puppet got about 60% of the vote, the other 40% of the people's vote become invalid. Thrown out. On top of that, there is the gerrymandering.

Either case, we have a unqualified fool who hasn't been vetted at all, who is extreme corrupt that will have the ability to start wars by saying or doing something stupid, which means OUR lives are in danger. A couple of crazy leaders with nukes playing chicken does not make the world safe. Hell, even trump voters don't want to know the truth about trump, it would kill their fantasy... they were gaslighted.

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post #73 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 12:12 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

On the surface, the NPV seems like a good idea. But if we have only the popular vote, then we have "majority rule". But the problem is there is nothing fair or just about majority rule or "democracy". In fact, one of the primary dangers of majority rule is that it confers an aura of legitimacy and respectability to acts that would otherwise be deemed tyrannical. Is majority vote “the law” no matter what the outcome? What if the people vote for a communistic government? Would our Western values consider this to be a legitimate form of government? In US history, slavery was the choice of a majority of american voters at one time. And so was segregated schools. Today the majority of american voters are against gay marriage. Does that make it right, or just? What if Hitler had received 51% of the German vote to kill the Jews. Would that be legal and right?

The Electoral College (EC) system is a measure that thwarts majority rule. The Electoral College gives states with small populations a measure of protection against domination by states with large populations. It levels the political playing field a bit. Even though our nine high-population states have a total of 241 electoral votes, a candidate needs 270 to win the presidency. That forces presidential candidates to campaign in thinly populated states and respect the wishes of the people there. The Founding Fathers held a deep abhorrence for democracy and majority rule. In fact, the word democracy appears nowhere in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. A republic has a system of checks and balances, and protections for the right of the people to he heard. The EC ensures that.

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post #74 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 03:21 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

"campaign in thinly populated states"... LOLZ please tell me which small states they focused on? Kansas? Wyoming? Delaware?
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post #75 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 08:54 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Originally Posted by TaDor View Post
Also, taken to the effect that say Texas, in which the russian puppet got about 60% of the vote, the other 40% of the people's vote become invalid. Thrown out. On top of that, there is the gerrymandering.
Exactly. In NY, the identity politics placatory got about 59% of the votes, and 41% of the people's vote became invalid. Thrown out.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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