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post #76 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 09:09 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

It's not the EC per se but the winner take all aspect...

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post #77 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 09:46 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

And should be based on the number of legally registered voters rather than population.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #78 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 04:10 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Originally Posted by john117 View Post
It's not the EC per se but the winner take all aspect...
So your complaint is with your own state, not the rest of the country. Why don't you start a movement in your state to go to a pure proportional EC vote from your state. Can you see any problem with that?
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post #79 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 04:15 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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So your complaint is with your own state, not the rest of the country. Why don't you start a movement in your state to go to a pure proportional EC vote from your state. Can you see any problem with that?
Proportional EC distribution is a victim to gerrymandering.... So, even if it becomes reality, little, if anything, will change.

United States is called United for a reason. We can pretend state independence all we want but if Canada invades Wyoming I kinda doubt the rest of us will sit and watch the Wyoming national guard duke it out.
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post #80 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 04:37 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

There is no fair. Any system can be gamed.

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post #81 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 06:47 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

I don't really feel like responding to all the derp here in this thread, so I'll just limit my post here to stating that I am in favor of the Electoral College. I actually would prefer to change it to a 2 votes per state model, if we changed it. Increase federalism. But I've got no belief that the nation would support any of the changes to our system that I'd like to see implemented.

Personally, the far more important thing to me is ending universal suffrage and returning to to land-owners only. If you don't have a stake in the country, you shouldn't have a voice in the policies.

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post #82 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 07:26 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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There is no fair. Any system can be gamed.
How do you game NPV?
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post #83 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 07:41 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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I don't really feel like responding to all the derp here in this thread, so I'll just limit my post here to stating that I am in favor of the Electoral College. I actually would prefer to change it to a 2 votes per state model, if we changed it. Increase federalism. But I've got no belief that the nation would support any of the changes to our system that I'd like to see implemented.

Personally, the far more important thing to me is ending universal suffrage and returning to to land-owners only. If you don't have a stake in the country, you shouldn't have a voice in the policies.
That is pretty old-fashioned, considering a lot of wealth (and taxation) is not related to land ownership these days.

A better solution is that your vote in any jurisdiction is multiplied by your net tax-paying in that jurisdiction. Obviously people who are net tax-consumers in any jurisdiction don't get to vote in that jurisdiction. Thus, if I pay $1000 in property tax to my county, my vote in county elections is multiplied by 1000, and similarly for those who pay different amounts.

With such a plan, heaping taxes on people means heaping votes on them. That makes it self-correcting.

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post #84 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 07:44 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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How do you game NPV?
Massive cheating in the form of dead people voting, non-citizens voting, and the like.

That still happens, of course, and decides elections, e.g., the 1960 Presidential race. But it is much harder to do that in a lot of jurisdictions than in a few, so it only matters in a close election with the current system.

With NPV, Hillary could probably have won easily just by getting 100 million votes in Chicago, for example, but there was no point in doing that with the current system since she couldn't get more than 20 electoral votes in Illinois no matter how much cheating they did.

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post #85 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 07:45 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

Tech, red states are, for the most part, tax consumers, and blue states are, for the most part, tax payers...

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post #86 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 08:17 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Originally Posted by tech-novelist View Post
That is pretty old-fashioned, considering a lot of wealth (and taxation) is not related to land ownership these days.

A better solution is that your vote in any jurisdiction is multiplied by your net tax-paying in that jurisdiction. Obviously people who are net tax-consumers in any jurisdiction don't get to vote in that jurisdiction. Thus, if I pay $1000 in property tax to my county, my vote in county elections is multiplied by 1000, and similarly for those who pay different amounts.

With such a plan, heaping taxes on people means heaping votes on them. That makes it self-correcting.
Indeed, it is very old fashioned. Back to the way voting was before Jackson. For me it's not as much about paying taxes, as much as it is about having an ownership stake in your community, in your state, in your nation. I like the concept of not letting tax receivers vote, but I'm not sure how that would work out in implementation. I certainly agree that if you don't pay taxes, you have no right (moral) to vote to increase taxes

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post #87 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 08:30 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Proportional EC distribution is a victim to gerrymandering.... So, even if it becomes reality, little, if anything, will change.

United States is called United for a reason. We can pretend state independence all we want but if Canada invades Wyoming I kinda doubt the rest of us will sit and watch the Wyoming national guard duke it out.
I think "pure proportional" means allocate the EVs by popular vote within your state, so congressional district gerrymandering would have no effect.

The US military avenged the lives of people from the very blue cities of Boston, New York, and LA. Yes, we unite against external threats.

At the risk of threadjacking, what if any aspects of governance are you okay with leaving to state and local government?

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post #88 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 09:33 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

Local stuff. The thought that Kentucky driver license requirements are different than Tennessee is funny...

There's spectacular waste in government due to service duplication. Kentucky Dept of Homeland Security? Lololol..

Here's why you need the feds. My birth country finally computerized birth records a few years ago. Each state implemented their own, incompatible with any other state's...
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post #89 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 10:08 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Local stuff. The thought that Kentucky driver license requirements are different than Tennessee is funny...

There's spectacular waste in government due to service duplication. Kentucky Dept of Homeland Security? Lololol..

Here's why you need the feds. My birth country finally computerized birth records a few years ago. Each state implemented their own, incompatible with any other state's...
The great thing about America is that you have 49 other states to choose from if you don't like the one you're living in. I wouldn't give that up to save a few dollars.

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post #90 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 11:38 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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The great thing about America is that you have 49 other states to choose from if you don't like the one you're living in. I wouldn't give that up to save a few dollars.
You really don't...

There's not much to distinguish Kansas City from St. Louis from Indianapolis from Columbus. Likewise rural Kansas from rural Ohio. Yea, the weather is not the same and the cows look different... You get the idea.

I've lived in a few states and visited most others, and pretty much it's not quite the spread people think.

A few are unique - or used to be - but most are not too different.

There's something unique about every place, don't get me wrong, but I'm not moving to Idaho because of the weather or the terrain .
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