EC vs. NPV - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 06:47 AM Thread Starter
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EC vs. NPV

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Abstract: The National Popular Vote (NPV) plan is the latest in a long line of schemes designed to replace the Electoral College. Imbued with the ideals of this nation’s Founders, the Electoral College has proved itself to be both effective in providing orderly elections for President and resilient in allowing a stable transfer of power of the leadership of the world’s greatest democracy. Therefore, while it would be a mistake to replace the Electoral College, replacing this system with the NPV would be a disaster. The NPV would devalue the minority interests that the Founders sought to protect, create electoral administrative problems, encourage voter fraud, and radicalize the U.S. political system. It also would likely violate the U.S. Constitution’s Compact Clause while directly contravening the Founders’ view of federalism and a representative republic. In an age of perceived political dysfunction, effective policies already in place—especially successful policies established by this nation’s Founders, such as the Electoral College—should be preserved.

National Popular Vote Plan to Replace the Electoral College
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post #2 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 07:52 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

Democrats should love the EC. It's affirmative action for the states.

(For the record, I prefer NPV. We don't elect our local, state, or any other federal officials with an EC type system and it works out just fine.)

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post #3 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 07:55 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Democrats should love the EC. It's affirmative action for the states.
I'm sure Hillary and Algore both love the EC...

The EC is gerrymandering at the state level.
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post #4 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 08:29 AM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

I'm on the side of the EC, though I understand why it makes some feel like they were ripped off. I think it would be terribly unfair to those living in rural states, if we went to the NPV.

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post #5 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 08:35 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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I'm on the side of the EC, though I understand why it makes some feel like they were ripped off. I think it would be terribly unfair to those living in rural states, if we went to the NPV.
Reeeeeeeeeeeeally? Any worse than the 3M Californians?
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post #6 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 08:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Reeeeeeeeeeeeally? Any worse than the 3M Californians?
They won't have to vote, if we go to NPV, will they?

That's the way I understand it. There are more folks in the eastern large cities than in the west? The vote won't or can't be changed because there aren't enough to do it, unless there is a tie? Also, if there is a tie, would Hawaii and Alaska combined, have as many votes as California? If not, they might not need to vote. Right? I think they would easily feel like they might not be represented for their taxes. Don't you?

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post #7 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 09:25 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

Anything that values one citizens vote more than another is a failed sysytem. Defend it all you want, but that's just because it helps your "side". I've always been against the electoral college. I was also against the AL West when it only had 4 teams in it and the NL central had 6 teams. How fair was that when your odds of making the playoffs were 1/4 versus 1/6. I love the people who come back and say, "well, life ain't fair." Shut up, uncontrollable things, sure. Letting something that is completely controllable continue to be unfair is ridiculous.

And as far as smaller states go, they already have equal representation in the senate. Wyoming has as much power as California in the senate. I guess that makes sense on some level, but here they are double dipping. Not only in half of one of the branches donthey have unequal power based on population, but they also have it picking someone for another branch.
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post #8 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 10:44 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

NPV is wonderful for any of you cats who believe New York City and L.A. should elect the President. Of the 3,141 counties in the U.S., your girl Hillery won less than 16%. Its purported that if you pull NYC out of the picture, Trump's popular vote deficit would be whittled down by 50%. I'll just say it. I'm for sticking with the EC because particularly this year, it gave me the results I wanted. But I'm no better than anybody else. If the shoe were on the other foot, I'd be wanting to change the system that concentrated power to my political base. Its human nature.

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post #9 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 10:53 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

Keep the EC.

Scale back the federal government to issues that take place across state lines (environmental management, interstate commerce, national defense) and a few judiciously chosen rights (guns and abortions for everyone!)

NPV makes sense if one supports an expanded role for the federal government. I like the autonomy that my state and community have to make decisions, and would like more of that autonomy. Similarly I don't see the point in trying to force Bible Belt states to teach evolution in schools or trying to force coastal states to rid their universities of "safe spaces." If we have the federal government in its original role, the EC isn't such an injustice.

And don't get me started on the possible nationwide manual recount.

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post #10 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 11:29 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

Implement both.

IOW, make it so that a given presidential candidate can't become president w/o winning both the popular AND electoral votes.

After all, bills become laws by clearing both the House and Senate.


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post #11 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 11:29 AM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

First it is a total fallacy to assert that the popular votes in previous elections are at all relevant.

How many Californians who preferred Trump stayed home because they knew without a doubt their state would go for Clinton? Ditto NY, NJ, and DC. We cannot say that California would have produced 3 million more Clinton votes than Trump votes had the rules been national popular vote wins.

There is no reason to assert the outcome of any previous election would have been any different had they been NPV rather than EC.

Once we recognize that, the question becomes why would we want to change from EC? Do we want the vote dominated by a few densely populated areas? Looking at the several varieties of maps breaking down states and counties, it is clear that the EC produces the correct outcome for a large majority of the country. Most of the country is not high density cities.

The EC forces candidates to appeal to a cross section of the population, not just a few high density areas. With the npv the candidates would ignore most of the inner 90% of the country. They would instead concentrate in areas with the most available votes, which are in the highest density areas.

If we want to use the 3 million vote difference in this last election as an example, we can see that Clinton was ahead only because of those votes in California. We could assert that absent California, the rest of the country was won by Trump by a million votes. Should the entire country's preference as shown by their voting for Trump be erased because of only California?

If one believes in the NPV, one should also be for abolishing the Senate. The Senate gives equal weight to each state with 2 Senators regardless of population. Yet the argument for the Senate is it gives balance against domination of Congress by a few states with large populations.

The EC provides the same kind of balance. States with larger populations do get more representation in the EC with more EC votes than smaller states. But each state gets to determine how they want their Electors to vote, either en masse or proportionally. It turns out it is to the benefit of each state to vote en masse in the EC. If a state were to release their electors to proportional voting, that state would lose much of their influence in the EC. Which is why no state does proportional EC voting. Going nationwide to proportional voting would thus be a mass abdication of state level influence by every state. NPV is just one very small step further than that, and we can see how each state would be losing their influence in the election.
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post #12 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 12:09 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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Originally Posted by GusPolinski View Post
Implement both.

IOW, make it so that a given presidential candidate can't become president w/o winning both the popular AND electoral votes.

After all, bills become laws by clearing both the House and Senate.
What happens in years like this one? Do we extend the term of the erstwhile president until we have a do-over? Do we send it to the House of Representatives? I like the idea - this year's mismatch signals poor political health. Consent of the governed is tenuous right now.

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post #13 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 12:27 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

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What happens in years like this one? Do we extend the term of the erstwhile president until we have a do-over? Do we send it to the House of Representatives? I like the idea - this year's mismatch signals poor political health. Consent of the governed is tenuous right now.
It's happened what... 4 times in all?

When a candidate fails to secure both, the vote goes through the already-established process i.e. it goes to the House.

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post #14 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 03:06 PM
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Re: EC vs. NPV

You EC advocates think it's right that, in a state with, say 10,000,000 people and 10 electoral votes, if 5,000,001 people vote for candidate A and 4,999,999 vote for candidate B, that Candidate A gets 10 electoral votes? Talk about disenfranchisement.

Yes, we have states like CA where twice as many voted for one candidate as for the other, but the loser would still get credit for the votes they received, unlike the EC system where those voters'opinions are completely discounted.

States should not have more power than people in the electoral process.

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post #15 of 331 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 03:31 PM Thread Starter
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Re: EC vs. NPV

So, one candidate should have gotten .66667 of the EC votes in Cali?

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