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post #136 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 07:30 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
I forgot to add, fashion also varies a lot with time and place. Kilts. Renaissance men's tights and what are essentially brightly colored dresses etc.


Now this is very interesting to me; and perhaps related to what I said in an earlier post.

Women are allowed to wear a wider range of clothing to express their personality and individuality. We are sometimes expected to wear very uncomfortable, sadistic items of clothing (4"+ heels, corsets worn to compress the waist, or burqas to completely blot us out).

BUT, having said that, in the West at least, we have much more freedom to dress as we feel.

Men are allowed, overall, to be more comfortable than women with reference to clothing; but they are not allowed such latitude as to types of clothing.

What is masculine or feminine about: lace, chiffon, silk, gauze, etc., or any other traditionally "feminine" fabric.

Nothing. It's only our perception.

Men have worn kilts and never had their masculinity or gender or sexual orientation questioned in anyway, shape or form.

In many countries, men have [and still do] wear long flowing robes as garments. They are not seen as wearing a dress or as trying to present as female.

Being a teenager in the 1980's, glam and hair metal bands dressed up in feminized stage outfits, eyeliner, teased hair, lots of jewelry. They were (mostly), an ultra heterosexual bunch of men who got all the female sexual attention they could handle.


Again, I think allowing men to express themselves more fully with regards to clothing/hairstyles/jewelry etc., should be encouraged. Not all men want to be he-men. He-men are not attractive to all women.

This is maybe a minor issue overall. But I do think it's a factor.


The founding fathers of the U.S.A. wore powdered wigs, velvet waistcoats, had their shirts tailored with ruffles and lace, wore short breeches with high socks underneath.

Medieval European men wore tights [externally], and codpieces. Again, velvets and silks and jewels.

And they weren't assumed to be gay, or trans or crossdressers.


Just thinking out loud. This, again, is only one piece of the puzzle.

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post #137 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 07:39 PM
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Re: Gender

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A lot of society's problems are caused by men and women being "expected" to do certain things, e.g. a woman who is a SAHM is somehow a failed woman and inferior to the ball busting female CEO, while the opposite is true.


First, thanks for the embedded video about the toy preference of the monkeys; very interesting, and I would not have thought it true. When I was a young girl, my mom bought me whatever toys I asked for {at Christmas, birthdays}; and, to her credit, never denied me "male toys": lego sets, plastic monsters, model space ships and airplanes. But I also loved Barbies and dollhouses; while HATING "babydolls", which I used to smash to pieces on a regular basis????


But there are some women who can be CEO's without being "Ballbreakers", surely? I don't know because I am not personally acquainted with any CEO's, male or female.

Now, I was going to cite Mary Kay and Martha Stewart and Oprah Winfrey and Carly Fiorina as examples of women who are CEO's. But I do not know if they are "ballbreakers" or not.


I would not desire to be either a ballbreaker or an ovarybreaker; so I can't count myself in the discussion personally.

Would it be reasonable to suggest that some people have talents in managing and organizing business; while others do not?

My personal experience and observation is that men are usually more aggressive; in all areas of life. And I use the word "aggressive" in a neutral, not condemnatory sense.
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post #138 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 07:54 PM
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Re: Gender

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My deal is that I live in an objective reality. And it is, in my view, wrong ethically, morally, objectively, to force people to accommodate a lie. It is fraud and you want to force others to participate in it.
I also live in an objective reality and, you know as well as I do that enforcing the above definition of “fraud” is impossible. Human beings perpetrate fraud every single day. People lie about all sorts of things, there is no way to prevent it or in most cases to even know when we are being deceived. Are you willing to criminalize all deception? That is the only way toward a society free of the “fraud” you speak of.

I am surprised that you are arguing so strongly on this subject. It almost sounds like you are aligning yourself with the current mass of people who want freedom from ever experiencing discomfort, embarrassment or hurt feelings caused by others.

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post #139 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 08:05 PM
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Re: Gender

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Little boys don't have a "right" to strip naked and shower with little girls after gym class.
This quote is from your explanation of "rights" earlier I know. However, since you said this debate is about morality/ethics ... Can you explain what is immoral or unethical about opposite genders (of any age) showering/bathing naked together?

It is a common practice throughout most of the world so I'm curious as to your thinking on the subject.
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post #140 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 08:17 PM
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Re: Gender

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This quote is from your explanation of "rights" earlier I know. However, since you said this debate is about morality/ethics ... Can you explain what is immoral or unethical about opposite genders (of any age) showering/bathing naked together?

It is a common practice throughout most of the world so I'm curious as to your thinking on the subject.


I'm not Kivlor, Red Sonja; but I do feel strongly about this.

I would only shower with my husband.

I never showered with my step-father, or grandfathers or uncles.

I would not wish to be naked in a gym shower with men around.

I see nudity as very sexual. Not shameful; but private and powerful. I know medical nudity is not sexual [using an example]--- but I expect my nudity to be respected and kept private as possible during any medical procedures.

Oil nude paintings were probably seen as mildly sexually arousing, over a hundred years ago. With today's sensibilities, they don't even register. Heck Playboy centerfolds are probably seen as "non sexual" or barely sexual, from today's point of view. We've become a bit calloused and desensitized to sexual images overall, I think.

It would have been horrifying, if during junior high and high school, if boys were allowed to shower with us after P.E. class----bad enough being either ridiculed, or groped at [I've known both], when you are fully clothed.
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post #141 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:33 PM
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Re: Gender

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I see nudity as very sexual. Not shameful; but private and powerful.
And, I have a different view. I don't see nudity as sexual by default. I see nudity as sexual (i.e. arousing) only inside the context of a sexual relationship or act. We have different views. Neither view is "right" or "wrong".

I was asking about the ethics/morality of mixed-gender nudity, since @Kivlor raised the issue.
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post #142 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:34 PM
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Re: Gender

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I also live in an objective reality and, you know as well as I do that enforcing the above definition of “fraud” is impossible. Human beings perpetrate fraud every single day. People lie about all sorts of things, there is no way to prevent it or in most cases to even know when we are being deceived. Are you willing to criminalize all deception? That is the only way toward a society free of the “fraud” you speak of.

I am surprised that you are arguing so strongly on this subject. It almost sounds like you are aligning yourself with the current mass of people who want freedom from ever experiencing discomfort, embarrassment or hurt feelings caused by others.

I think infidelity is immoral and I'm not advocating tossing people in jail for it.

I am arguing it is wrong and that it should not be promoted. That it is fine for society in general to shun such behavior. In a farthest reaching scenario I could see the case for banning the surgery as it does not have any demonstrated benefits and many demonstrated issues.

I think the major issue here is that somehow many people can't envision strongly denouncing something without demanding it be illegal. Which says something about their hearts.

My preference is for no laws for or against, and to leave it up to people and businesses. That ship has sailed, I fear.


But if we must pass laws about trans folk, then it seems reasonable to me that we ban it, as it is preferable to make criminals (or mental patients) of a deviant minority than to demand everyone else must exalt them, thus destroying any last vestiges of the right of free association for all citizens. The trans folk are demanding they be accommodated by force of law. It is only natural that all rational adults oppose them.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #143 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:50 PM
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Re: Gender

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And, I have a different view. I don't see nudity as sexual by default. I see nudity as sexual (i.e. arousing) only inside the context of a sexual relationship or act. We have different views. Neither view is "right" or "wrong".

I was asking about the ethics/morality of mixed-gender nudity, since @Kivlor raised the issue.
I hate to tell you but that is not the case for most of us with the male anatomy. If it were, you could expect men to not get erections when they see naked women, however, this is not the basic expectation. To which you'll respond "blah blah #notall" which is of course understood when we talk in generalizations.

In regards to your question, I'd offer this: most of the world is made of backwards savages and appealing to what is popular among such peoples is fallacious from the start.

There are a great many people among whom it is popular to try to steer their children from sexual contact until they aren't children (or even married). It is generally accepted that sexual activity at early ages can have undesirable effects long term. Demanding they abandon those values so little Jimmy can pretend he's a girl named Sally and shower with the girls after gym class flies in the face of all the tolerance rhetoric. It is intolerant to demand they acquiesce.
Jimmy is free to pretend he is a girl. He's not free to demand everyone else join him and that they must let him shower with them.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #144 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:51 PM
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Re: Gender

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I think the major issue here is that somehow many people can't envision strongly denouncing something without demanding it be illegal. Which says something about their hearts.
I cannot envision a society where behavior that the majority (or a group) has denounced being rendered illegal. Iran comes to mind as such a society and it does not reflect well on their humanity.
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post #145 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 10:07 PM
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Re: Gender

When you hear someone trying to argue there's nothing sexual about teenage boys showering with teenage girls....

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Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #146 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 10:10 PM
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Re: Gender

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In regards to your question, I'd offer this: most of the world is made of backwards savages and appealing to what is popular among such peoples is fallacious from the start.
So countries such as Germany, Spain, Norway, Sweden et al are occupied by "backwards savages"? In those countries and many others, people strip down in public and change clothes at swimming pools, beaches (etc,). Throughout Italy and China the norm is unisex bathrooms in public places.

In the United States, when I grew up it was common for children to run around naked or in underwear during the summer, we swam naked in the local lakes and most kids I knew bathed with their parents or siblings. And, no I was not raised in a commune.

These are just a few examples but do you consider these people savages, am I a savage?

BTW, you did NOT answer my question.
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post #147 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 10:13 PM
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Re: Gender

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I cannot envision a society where behavior that the majority (or a group) has denounced being rendered illegal. Iran comes to mind as such a society and it does not reflect well on their humanity.
It is more common than you want to envision. Pedophilia comes to mind. And rape. And murder. Ad infinitum

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #148 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 10:13 PM
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Re: Gender

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When you hear someone trying to argue there's nothing sexual about teenage boys showering with teenage girls....
That is not what I am arguing and you know it. Stop being disingenuous, it's beneath you.
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post #149 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 10:19 PM
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Re: Gender

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So countries such as Germany, Spain, Norway, Sweden et al are occupied by "backwards savages"? In those countries and many others, people strip down in public and change clothes at swimming pools, beaches (etc,). Throughout Italy and China the norm is unisex bathrooms in public places.

In the United States, when I grew up it was common for children to run around naked or in underwear during the summer, we swam naked in the local lakes and most kids I knew bathed with their parents or siblings. And, no I was not raised in a commune.

These are just a few examples but do you consider these people savages, am I a savage?

BTW, you did NOT answer my question.
Germany, where they apologize for organized mass rape. Same in Sweden... China where they think that if you torture an animal that it tastes better and where forced labor (slave labor) still exists...

Would you like for me to go on with the backwards attitudes and practices of these peoples or is that example enough?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #150 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 10:25 PM
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Re: Gender

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That is not what I am arguing and you know it. Stop being disingenuous, it's beneath you.
What disingenuous is trying to pretend that a parent concerned with their school enforcing this kind of behavior on their children is the same as a child bathing with their parent.

Those showers will be fine, I'm sure. Who cares if the young girls parents have a problem with it. Little Jimmy err... Sally has a right! Those knuckle dragging parents have nothing to worry about. They're just being bigots. There's nothing sexual about nudity or opposite sex showers.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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