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post #166 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 12:40 PM
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Re: Gender

@uhtred

Also, on the shower issue... would you say that public policy should serve the public? So if we are talking about either A) forcing people to let this happen to their kids or B) forcing them to not let it happen, would it be fair to say that the policy should be based on serving the public? Is the public better served by forcing A) or B)?

If we force A), how many rapes/sexual assaults would be necessary as a result in a given year, to display that it was not worth the gain in comfort for <1% of the population? How much discomfort should the remaining >99% of the population have to suffer for the comfort of that <1%?

These seem like legitimate questions, you being a utilitarian and all.


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #167 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

I agree, we need to look at the costs of a policy and make the unhappy decision of deciding how many additional assaults / rapes are OK.

If we try to make rational public policy we can assign a value to life, to suffering etc. This is already done by policy makers - its well known that certain money expenditures can make predictable reductions in death rates(through improved emergency response). - so any time money is spent it is trading lives for something else. A typical value for human life is in the $10M range.

We have to be VERY careful though. Value of life doesn't mean that we want breeding farms to produce as much human life as possible. Cost of death doesn't mean that we want to kill every human on the planet so that the number of deaths in the long term is reduced. Its easy to get trapped by false optimizations.


All that said, how to balance trans, gay, racial etc rights against costs?

There is direct physical risk. I don't know if there are any statistics on the rate of sexual assaults by trans persons relative to the average population. If we then look for assaults by trans persons using facilities not of their birth gender there is probably even less data. My guess is that assaults by trans persons will be no larger than assaults by college athletes (both relative to the average population), and we tolerate college athletics. I have no number though to support or oppose this.

The benefits to trans people are pretty high because acceptance is important to them.

The cost of discomfort is more difficult. How many people are we willing to make uncomfortable in order to make some number of people happier? Is someone's discomfort at seeing a trans person the same as a trans person's discomfort at not being accepted? Or are they fundamentally different? I have no way to measure this. Hmm. tricky.

I'm all for rational policy, but sometimes things cannot be represented by numbers. So instead I'll take a sort of big picture look. When I look at societies that are accepting of a wide range of (non-harmful) behaviors relative to those that do not accept these behaviors, I personally much prefer the accepting ones.

My largest objection to many Islamic countries is that they so greatly restrict behavior: specific dress for women, no drinking, no extra-marital sex. Especially important is the extremely limited rights for women, generally argued as being required for "moral" reasons.

I would much prefer to live in a country that allows an uncomfortably wide range of behaviors than one that overly limits behaviors.

I am willing to accept gays, trans people, fundamentalist Christians and Muslims, Vegans, radical feminists, hunters, snowflake liberals, drunken frat boys, survivalists, neo-Nazis (non violent), gun collectors, etc - all of whose behavior makes me uncomfortable in some ways, in return for being allowed to behave the way I want, even though it makes other people uncomfortable.













Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
@uhtred

Also, on the shower issue... would you say that public policy should serve the public? So if we are talking about either A) forcing people to let this happen to their kids or B) forcing them to not let it happen, would it be fair to say that the policy should be based on serving the public? Is the public better served by forcing A) or B)?

If we force A), how many rapes/sexual assaults would be necessary as a result in a given year, to display that it was not worth the gain in comfort for <1% of the population? How much discomfort should the remaining >99% of the population have to suffer for the comfort of that <1%?

These seem like legitimate questions, you being a utilitarian and all.
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post #168 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

Strange, I spend quite a lot of time in China for work and have never seen / heard of this. Also never met a Mexican who who thought raping non-virgins was OK.

There are a LOT of people so if you look for the worst behavior you will find it.

You can find some pretty creepy behavior in the US if you look for it too: Polygamy, child abuse, cults etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
I mean torture. They believe that the more pain an animal suffers, the better it tastes. Because they are savages.

They're about as backwards as the Mexicans, who think it's not rape if you agree to marry her, or if she can't prove she was a virgin.

I'll never understand Xenophilia, just like I'll never be able to understand the veneration of the myth of the Noble Savage.

ETA: the shower issue... it can happen, however, the instance of pederasty / homosexuality is low in comparison to heterosexuality. Do you think forcing this policy upon the public will raise or lower instances of sexual assault, rape, etc? I don't think you're being honest with yourself here, nor with me.
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post #169 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 02:30 PM
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Re: Gender

I have never once showered naked in school. In fact the only time I ever had to shower was when we had to do a month of swimming. All the girls would go in the shower with their bathing suits on.
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post #170 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 05:10 PM
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Re: Gender

So what you are saying is that a man who feels feminine, or a woman who feels masculine or a person who accepts those feelings in others is "Immoral". That is a very specific tightly restricted statement that you have reaffirmed several times.
Now comes the fun question. What other THOUGHTS make me immoral. Perhaps I'm politically Conservative. Perhaps I prefer Cats over dogs. Perhaps I prefer wrestling over baseball. Perhaps I hate snow. All of those examples have led many people to accuse me of being stupid, but never of being immoral. This is a new experience to me. I strongly believe based on your writing on this thread only that your immoral is really "does not comply with my religion". You dance around Fraud and Children's safety. But the real big issue is that you are pretty well grossed out about the idea, and your thoughts make you moral, while my thoughts make me immoral.
So call the Nazi Thought police here is their contact information
4440 WSC Provo, UT
Email: hco@byu.edu
Phone: (801) 422-2847
Fax: (801) 422-0299
They can start making the arrests.
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post #171 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 05:17 PM
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Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
I have never once showered naked in school. In fact the only time I ever had to shower was when we had to do a month of swimming. All the girls would go in the shower with their bathing suits on.
Bada Bing Bada Boom!

I wouldn't dare to bring this up since I graduated from public schools over 3 decades ago. It is somewhat comforting to hear that at least that thing hasn't changed.
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post #172 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 06:08 PM
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Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nail View Post
So what you are saying is that a man who feels feminine, or a woman who feels masculine or a person who accepts those feelings in others is "Immoral". That is a very specific tightly restricted statement that you have reaffirmed several times.
Now comes the fun question. What other THOUGHTS make me immoral. Perhaps I'm politically Conservative. Perhaps I prefer Cats over dogs. Perhaps I prefer wrestling over baseball. Perhaps I hate snow. All of those examples have led many people to accuse me of being stupid, but never of being immoral. This is a new experience to me. I strongly believe based on your writing on this thread only that your immoral is really "does not comply with my religion". You dance around Fraud and Children's safety. But the real big issue is that you are pretty well grossed out about the idea, and your thoughts make you moral, while my thoughts make me immoral.
So call the Nazi Thought police here is their contact information
4440 WSC Provo, UT
Email: hco@byu.edu
Phone: (801) 422-2847
Fax: (801) 422-0299
They can start making the arrests.
I think I was very clear that femininity / masculinity are on sliding scales. Gender/sex are not. If you are having difficulty with the concept, I don't know what to tell you. I don't equate cutting off body parts with switching out the wardrobe, playing with one toy over another etc.

Stating that cutting on yourself is immoral is not equivalent with stating that I'm going to send jack-in-boots to hunt you for wrong-think.

You aren't even remotely arguing in good faith. As to your ridiculous comment RE: Religion, I am not a part of any religion. I don't worship. You are off base, and grasping at anything you can, I think. Going so far as to imply that anyone who disagrees with you must be one of those evil theists... which even if it were true I were a theist, wouldn't discredit anything I've said. None of my arguments have been from God.

I am entertained that you didn't bother to even remotely defend any of your positions, and completely abandoned them, going for "You're a Nazi! You're a Theist!". You have been relegated to resorting to name-calling and attempting to poison the well. It shows desperation.

Reminds me how when most people suffer grief, such as at the loss of a dearly held belief--like "I'm right"--most people start with denial--check. Then anger or lashing out--ah, calling me names, check... next comes bargaining Mr. Nail... don't worry, you're on the road to acceptance.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #173 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 06:21 PM
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Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
I agree, we need to look at the costs of a policy and make the unhappy decision of deciding how many additional assaults / rapes are OK.

If we try to make rational public policy we can assign a value to life, to suffering etc. This is already done by policy makers - its well known that certain money expenditures can make predictable reductions in death rates(through improved emergency response). - so any time money is spent it is trading lives for something else. A typical value for human life is in the $10M range.

We have to be VERY careful though. Value of life doesn't mean that we want breeding farms to produce as much human life as possible. Cost of death doesn't mean that we want to kill every human on the planet so that the number of deaths in the long term is reduced. Its easy to get trapped by false optimizations.


All that said, how to balance trans, gay, racial etc rights against costs?

There is direct physical risk. I don't know if there are any statistics on the rate of sexual assaults by trans persons relative to the average population. If we then look for assaults by trans persons using facilities not of their birth gender there is probably even less data. My guess is that assaults by trans persons will be no larger than assaults by college athletes (both relative to the average population), and we tolerate college athletics. I have no number though to support or oppose this.

The benefits to trans people are pretty high because acceptance is important to them.

The cost of discomfort is more difficult. How many people are we willing to make uncomfortable in order to make some number of people happier? Is someone's discomfort at seeing a trans person the same as a trans person's discomfort at not being accepted? Or are they fundamentally different? I have no way to measure this. Hmm. tricky.

I'm all for rational policy, but sometimes things cannot be represented by numbers. So instead I'll take a sort of big picture look. When I look at societies that are accepting of a wide range of (non-harmful) behaviors relative to those that do not accept these behaviors, I personally much prefer the accepting ones.

My largest objection to many Islamic countries is that they so greatly restrict behavior: specific dress for women, no drinking, no extra-marital sex. Especially important is the extremely limited rights for women, generally argued as being required for "moral" reasons.

I would much prefer to live in a country that allows an uncomfortably wide range of behaviors than one that overly limits behaviors.

I am willing to accept gays, trans people, fundamentalist Christians and Muslims, Vegans, radical feminists, hunters, snowflake liberals, drunken frat boys, survivalists, neo-Nazis (non violent), gun collectors, etc - all of whose behavior makes me uncomfortable in some ways, in return for being allowed to behave the way I want, even though it makes other people uncomfortable.
Great post. I don't know about assault rates from trans people--I doubt there are studies available--but I think a far greater concern here isn't necessarily that trans people are evil intended, and are going out to go into a gym shower and do heinous things, but rather that people break systems. To think that much less benign intended people won't be abusing this, calling themselves "trans" to suit their fancy seems to be a very naive assertion. But I have a pretty cynical view of humanity.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #174 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 06:57 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

There is often a lot of concern about people taking advantages of systems, whether its welfare, gay marriage, affirmative action, lack of ID for elections, etc. It seems natural that people would do so.

The strange thing is that so far I haven't seen a lot of evidence of this sort of fraud. Yes, some people cheat on welfare, but usually they are people society would need to support anyway, and the rate of cheating isn't that high.

Maybe people are less dishonest than it would seem.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Great post. I don't know about assault rates from trans people--I doubt there are studies available--but I think a far greater concern here isn't necessarily that trans people are evil intended, and are going out to go into a gym shower and do heinous things, but rather that people break systems. To think that much less benign intended people won't be abusing this, calling themselves "trans" to suit their fancy seems to be a very naive assertion. But I have a pretty cynical view of humanity.
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post #175 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 06:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

I am personally bothered by body modification (including ear piercings) and wish people wouldn't do it. But, I've never seen it as in any way immoral.

Why does this seem immoral to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
snip

Stating that cutting on yourself is immoral is not equivalent with stating that I'm going to send jack-in-boots to hunt you for wrong-think.
snip


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post #176 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 08:34 PM
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Re: Gender

I can't hit a moving target. You are just playing at this.
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post #177 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 11:27 PM
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Re: Gender

I've got a Mcdonalds across the street from my house. There is a person working there that neither I nor my wife knows whether its a man or a woman. I'll let someone else play god or let the governor of North Carolina figure it out. Hint, don't let the breasts or the five o'clock shadow sway your opinion.
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post #178 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 11:54 PM
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Re: Gender





Covergirl recently had an ad with a male model. I saw it a couple of times, then it seemed to disappear.



Makeup brand CoverGirl features first CoverBoy - The Globe and Mail
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post #179 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-06-2017, 12:35 AM
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Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
Where did you get the bit about Chinese torturing and eating dogs? Dog meat is pretty common in Korea, less so in china, but "torturing"? Do you mean beyond the normal treatment of food animals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
I mean torture. They believe that the more pain an animal suffers, the better it tastes. Because they are savages.
Here is an example of what Kilvlor is talking about. It is not for the faint hearted, so beware.

LiveLeak.com - Scalded dog runs away after being boiled alive (comments)
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post #180 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-06-2017, 12:54 AM
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Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMFarAboveRubies View Post
Here is an example of what Kilvlor is talking about. It is not for the faint hearted, so beware.

LiveLeak.com - Scalded dog runs away after being boiled alive (comments)


No thanks, ImFar I believe what Kivlor said. I think they do the same kind of thing in Korea (eat dogs).

Be careful of "fake" or "faux" fur on Chinese-made clothing. Apparently a lot of it is cat and dog; especially German Shepherd. But it's labeled "faux".


I'll stop here, I don't wanna threadjack. I don't want to see something I can't unsee.
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