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post #211 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 10:46 AM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
How often do people find themselves in showers or locker rooms with naked strangers? I don't think its happened to me since swim class in high school - 40 years ago.

Otherwise, who cares if the person in the next bathroom stall has a penis?

Also, if it does happen, what about the ~10% of the population who are gay?


Based upon how I would feel if women were naked in the showers or locker with me, my guess is they would enjoy it. But like most men, I'm visual and like admiring the opposite sex. Why would gays be any different?


If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.

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post #212 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 10:59 AM
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Re: Gender

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Yes, I have, many times because at the ladies there is always a huge line (another rant for another day). I walk in and head for a stall, most don't even notice I'm there. If there is no stall I U-turn and walk out. I've done it at sporting events, airports and other public places where there are large crowds. I've never had a problem.
As a guy if I did this in a womans room I would be arrested.
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post #213 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 11:29 AM
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Re: Gender

Gender is not black and white even anatomically. Many babies are born with ambiguous or intersex sexual organs, and often such individuals undergo surgery to "normalize" their genetalia.

In other cases, the doctor and/or parents will simply assign a gender based on which organs seem to be more dominant and then raise the child according to that gender.

Apparently "fitting in" and avoiding bullying is more important than the reality that all aspects of gender (sex organs, hormones, etc) are fluid and on a spectrum.

Social constructions of gender are often rigid and uncompromising, but this reflects the particular culture not the biological reality. Other cultures can and do have very different gender roles that are just as rigidly enforced.

I really don't get why bathrooms get people into such a tizzy. In ancient Rome, toilets were open air and there was no privacy whatsoever. Men and women side by side.
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post #214 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

Why do we have separate men's and women's bathrooms?

Since there are already gay men changing at the gym, why does it matter if there are women there as well?
Or, since there are already lesbian women there, why does it matter if there are men there.

Or, should gyms just have little changing stalls? There may be a lot of people like me who are not comfortable being naked around strangers of either gender.




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You mean <2%? The gay question was never an issue, so long as homosexuality was not tolerated in public. It's a very poignant question now though.

I've seen a lot of naked guys at the gym, pretty much every time I go even.

I think the question is better posed: "Should we have separate sex bathrooms / showers?" because as long as we do, and as long as most people think we should then making an exception for transfolk ignores the entire set of concerns and norms.
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post #215 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 12:42 PM
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Re: Gender

Why do we have separate men's and women's bathrooms, indeed. My question is why do we suddenly want to jump through hoops changing things when the vast majority of folks are happy with the way it is now. Most of the women I know are not comfortable with men peering at them while their panties are around their ankles. A lot of folks have died for "the greater good". Is it too much to ask that a couple of transsexuals give up a little of their visceral wants so a couple of hundred normal heterosexual women can relieve themselves void of the peering eyes of men.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #216 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

But which causes less stress?

If someone who looks like a woman walks into the men's bathroom, doesn't that cause the same discomfort? How would you know if that person was biologically male or female unless you are peering into the stall they are using.


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Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
Why do we have separate men's and women's bathrooms, indeed. My question is why do we suddenly want to jump through hoops changing things when the vast majority of folks are happy with the way it is now. Most of the women I know are not comfortable with men peering at them while there panties are around their ankles. A lot of folks have died for "the greater good". Is it too much to ask that a couple of transsexuals give up a little of their visceral wants so a couple of hundred normal heterosexual women can relieve themselves void of the peering eyes of men.
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post #217 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 02:39 PM
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Re: Gender

Somewhat of a valid point Uhtred. I suppose if they, prima facie, appear to be a woman (or man as the case my be), nobody's the wiser and therefore not distrubed. If they are not far enough along with their commitment to the transgender thing so they continue to look and act unmistakably like a man, I'm more comfortable with them using male labeled facilities. I realize my "narrow" viewpoint is not that avant garde, but I think most of the ruckus about this are from the folks who want to look like their birth anatomies but who want to draw attention to themselves by using the opposite sex assigned facilities.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #218 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 02:42 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Wolfman1968 View Post
Are you then in favor of making all bathrooms and locker rooms unisex?
It's already this way in much of the world (see my previous posts). Unisex bathrooms are not uncommon in the USA. I don't think it's necessary to have laws that govern restrooms or locker rooms. Buildings may provide facilities of their choice (or not) and people can use those facilities (or not).

What I don't understand or agree with is people who consider urinating/defecating/showering/bathing to be somehow sexual. Private, yes, some prefer that. But sexual (?!) ... that is just nonsense to me.

We have laws on the books that criminalize public sexual activities, how about we enforce them instead of worrying about what might happen if a LGBTQ person is using your preferred restroom?
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post #219 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 09:52 AM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Red Sonja View Post
It's already this way in much of the world (see my previous posts). Unisex bathrooms are not uncommon in the USA. I don't think it's necessary to have laws that govern restrooms or locker rooms. Buildings may provide facilities of their choice (or not) and people can use those facilities (or not).

What I don't understand or agree with is people who consider urinating/defecating/showering/bathing to be somehow sexual. Private, yes, some prefer that. But sexual (?!) ... that is just nonsense to me.

We have laws on the books that criminalize public sexual activities, how about we enforce them instead of worrying about what might happen if a LGBTQ person is using your preferred restroom?
I think I addressed the real concern back a few pages ago.

Quote:
Great post. I don't know about assault rates from trans people--I doubt there are studies available--but I think a far greater concern here isn't necessarily that trans people are evil intended, and are going out to go into a gym shower and do heinous things, but rather that people break systems. To think that much less benign intended people won't be abusing this, calling themselves "trans" to suit their fancy seems to be a very naive assertion. But I have a pretty cynical view of humanity.
The real concerns aren't about benign people. The concerns are about the nature of humanity. We break systems. It's in the nature of a ton of us. To think this won't be abused seems naive. Why would a normal man want to pee next to a bunch of women, or go into a restroom where they are peeing? They wouldn't... which leaves the abnormal, or deviant. For better or worse, in cultures like ours, deviant behaviors such as this are generally associated--rightly or wrongly--with other, much worse behaviors.

I'll give you an example: homosexuality is deeply associated in the minds of many (most?) people with fears of pederasty, whether you like it or not. So saying that people should have to accept them is a meaningless statement until you can dispel that association. (And it is a false association, btw) If you think I'm wrong on this, go around, and ask everyone you know (not publicly, but in private) how they would feel about having a gay man babysit their children (particularly sons). Most will be very uncomfortable.

If trans people are benign (and I think most probably are) then the place to start isn't by demanding others accept them or be called (((evil))). The starting point is dispelling the associations with other deviancy.

Even if you can dispel those things, then we have another question to ask RS: Is it just to force people to associate with individuals who they do not wish to associate with? Is it just to force their children to be taught that their parents are (((evil))) and they should consider mutilating their bodies? How far do we take this "acceptance" and at what point is it a violation of the rights of everyone else?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #220 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 10:25 AM
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Re: Gender

I tend to think that those who comment on the peering eyes of men tend to be the ones that they want to keep out of the bathrooms. Any club that lets me in as a member isn't one I want to join.

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post #221 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 10:34 AM
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Cool Re: Gender

I do earnestly believe that our Heavenly Father had a grand plan in mind for each and everyone of us who were borne to this earthly plain!

To alter that plan is something that I don't necessarily subscribe to, but if an individual desires to alter or circumvent what God has ordained, then it will be them that has to eventually stand before the Father to give a full accounting of why it was that they felt compelled to change His original design, intent, and plan!

As far as sharing bathroom facilities with transgenders, I don't give much thought to it because when I've got to go, I've got to go!

But as a longtime interscholastic sports referee, I almost always take a post game shower. But as far as chancing having to subject myself to showering with them in the future, I think that I'll probably just wait until I either get back home or to my hotel room to shower in private!

"To love another person is to see the face of God!" - Jean Valjean from Les Miserables

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Last edited by arbitrator; 01-16-2017 at 10:47 AM. Reason: Edification
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post #222 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 10:41 AM
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Re: Gender

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I do earnestly believe that our Heavenly Father had a grand plan in mind for each and everyone of us who were borne to this earthly plain!

To alter that plan is something that I don't necessarily subscribe to, but if an individual desires to alter or circumvent what God has ordained, then it will be them that has to eventually stand before the Father to give a full accounting of why it was that they felt compelled to change His original design, intent, and plan!
Well said Arb. From a Christian perspective, I think this is a great way to discuss this. However, at what point do we accept that we are all part of a community, and interconnected? At what point does your family have a right to interfere with your activities, because those activities interfere with them?

Take for example Christianity's perspective on suicide... is it just for your family to intervene and prevent you from going through with it, perhaps even through physical restraint? Your soul is at stake. Your family's livelihood may be at stake. The future of your children. When a man commits suicide, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. Same here, with mutilating your body. How will this affect your wife, your children, your work, etc...

This is the great failing I see in libertarianism... it tries to pretend that we are all islands, when in fact the overwhelming majority of us are not.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #223 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 12:14 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

This is I think a key point. People worry that trans people are likely to commit other sexual offenses, just as some people worry that gay men are likely to be child abusers.

Even for gays, where I would expect there to be more data, the results are not conclusive. There is huge confusion about how to define "gay" and child abuse / pedophilia. You can find whatever results you want by cherry-picking studies. Most of what I see though indicates that gays are not any more likely to abuse children than are straight people.

Lets say though for the sake of argument that trans people are more likely to abuse. I still don't see how this affect this issue: certainly a public restroom is not a high probability location for abuse - the home is far more likely, with other private places next in line.

I even see some risk or erotsizing the forbidden: by forbidding one sort of (harmless) sexual behavior, that may make other (harmful) forbidden behaviors seen sexual.




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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
I think I addressed the real concern back a few pages ago.



The real concerns aren't about benign people. The concerns are about the nature of humanity. We break systems. It's in the nature of a ton of us. To think this won't be abused seems naive. Why would a normal man want to pee next to a bunch of women, or go into a restroom where they are peeing? They wouldn't... which leaves the abnormal, or deviant. For better or worse, in cultures like ours, deviant behaviors such as this are generally associated--rightly or wrongly--with other, much worse behaviors.

I'll give you an example: homosexuality is deeply associated in the minds of many (most?) people with fears of pederasty, whether you like it or not. So saying that people should have to accept them is a meaningless statement until you can dispel that association. (And it is a false association, btw) If you think I'm wrong on this, go around, and ask everyone you know (not publicly, but in private) how they would feel about having a gay man babysit their children (particularly sons). Most will be very uncomfortable.

If trans people are benign (and I think most probably are) then the place to start isn't by demanding others accept them or be called (((evil))). The starting point is dispelling the associations with other deviancy.

Even if you can dispel those things, then we have another question to ask RS: Is it just to force people to associate with individuals who they do not wish to associate with? Is it just to force their children to be taught that their parents are (((evil))) and they should consider mutilating their bodies? How far do we take this "acceptance" and at what point is it a violation of the rights of everyone else?
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post #224 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 12:31 PM
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Re: Gender

To me, the crucial point is NOT arguing about whether trans people are benign or evil or deviant or incredibly brave. The crucial point is whether making it harder to detect when people are in the "wrong" bathroom will make it easier for rapists and abusers to pretend to be trans so they can go into the women's restroom to leer or rape or abuse females. I have no idea whether or to what extent deviant heterosexual male non-trans sexual predators will take advantage of any increased flexibility. But to me, that matters more than the level of discomfort of honestly and truly trans people who have no interest in leering or abusing or of non-trans people who want only genetically same sex people in their restroom. For me, I can live with either of those discomforts, because I don't see any way of avoiding all discomfort to both "sides". But I don't see any reason to increase rape and abuse in the name of helping trans people to feel less discomfort. On the other hand, until we try it will be hard to test whether there will actually be more rape and abuse if we change the laws to accommodate trans people's desires. So we are weighing certain discomfort of some trans people against certain discomfort of some non-trans people plus the risk that there will be more rape and abuse if we change the rule. Lots of uncertainty there which makes rational decision making difficult.

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post #225 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 12:58 PM
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Re: Gender

Uhtred, I don't think the possible increase in risk of rape and child abuses is the sum total of why most folks, and especially women, don't want males in their showers, dressing rooms, and restrooms. One method used to manipulate and desensitize people into accepting a "foreign" concept that has been proscribed is a variation of the good guy/bad guy tactic to introduce the idea of a worst case scenario, (he saw your wife at least 50-60 time over the past two years banging her co-worker's brains out) than reel it in to a much more benign version, (actually I know for a fact they met just once in his car and all they did was kiss just before she exited)
The best case scenario, as I see it, is "peeping Toms" characterizing themselves as trans., slipping into woman's facilities to indulge themselves. And women are expected to put up with this crap so a few genuine trans., are free to do their thing.

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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