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post #16 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 06:44 PM
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Re: Gender

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I am really uneasy about gender affecting drugs or other treatments for children. The idea that someone is too young to consent to sex, but old enough to consent to changing their gender is very strange to me.
Who are you to question their identity? What if they identify as an 18 year old? A 64 year old? Or what if an "adult" identifies as an 8 year old child and wants to go to elementary school? What if your wife identifies as a cat? Can either of those individuals enter into contracts, as they identify as being an age/species that cannot legally do so?

This is a cultural madness. It is the sign of the worst, most utter and terrible decadence. We are in decay. It is a rot in our nation's spirit.


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #17 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 11:03 PM
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Re: Gender

One day I was totally schooled by my 21 year old daughter because I dared ask out loud about Bruce Jenner and his surgery. I was told that I wasn't "allowed" to ask any questions or talk about it. That I was to just accept that he was a woman because that's how he identified.
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post #18 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 11:24 PM
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Re: Gender

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What about the men who can go into a bathroom with your daughter because they identify as female? That's the doozy. Has this ever happened to anyone here or maybe to someone you know? I'm interested in how did you handle it?
Meh. The bathroom debate.
It's not as if bathrooms were some safe space before. There were plenty of stories when I was growing up, of assaults on boys by men in the men's room.

It's just now people are campaigning for the legal right to use the bathroom of the sex that they identify as. Where do you suppose cross dressers were using the facilities before? I can only assume men dressed as a woman in public have been using the ladies for years, and vice versa. Honestly, especially in the ladies room with more enclosed stalls, we've probably been using the facilities with the opposite sex unaware for quite some time. I can't imagine a man in drag would walk in the mens and use a urinal.

I don't let my little girls go into public bathrooms alone, and i'm grateful for the awareness, because now I see more family/gender neutral bathrooms. My sister is a single mom, and family bathrooms give her a place for her sons to use that she can check on them if needed. When they were little, we would take them into the ladies room with us. now that they are 8 and 5 that doesn't fly anymore.

Forget enough to get over it, remember enough so it doesn't happen again.
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post #19 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 11:42 PM
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Re: Gender

Everything is on a spectrum. Male on one side, female on the other, balance of hormones making us each gender. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look around and see there are lots of feminine males, and masculine females. It's all on a spectrum. I know some men that are super emotional, some women that are tough as nails. There is something going on that is causing men to have low testosterone.
Anyway... there's what we have physically, vagina and penis and then there is our hormonal composition that makes us FEEL like a certain gender. And sometimes I don't believe they match.

All I know is that I was born female, and I feel like a female.
I don't know what it feels like to be born the wrong gender. I don't know what it feels like to be attracted to women. Therefore I refrain from judgement and offer them compassion because I wouldn't want to feel that way and I'm sorry for those that do.
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post #20 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 11:45 PM
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Re: Gender

This is an interesting topic because there is something going in with gender. And it seems to be mostly men feeling feminine.
I have heard so much about men with low testosterone. I know a few men in my own life that have this problem and they are in their 30s.
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post #21 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:14 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

It may just be more obvious with men, but not more common than for women. Women can wear what is traditionally "men's" clothing without receiving a lot of comment, but the reverse is noticed.




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This is an interesting topic because there is something going in with gender. And it seems to be mostly men feeling feminine.
I have heard so much about men with low testosterone. I know a few men in my own life that have this problem and they are in their 30s.
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post #22 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:31 AM
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post #23 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 02:10 AM
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Re: Gender

When someone [let's say a man], feels like his masculinity is weak; and that he is in the wrong body for his female gender . . . why doesn't he quickly receive *male* hormones to reinforce his intact male body and male identity???


Then concurrently see a psychiatrist intensively for a few years; with possible, occasional therapy as needed on and off throughout life, to help him with the mental and emotional burden of feeling like you are not a man; despite physically being born a man, in the biological sense.

There's nothing wrong with being a gentle, sweet, kind man. I wonder if our society was more accepting of different types of expression of masculinity and femininity----if a lot of this gender dysphoria would be eliminated???

The idea and reality of gender reassignment surgeries is gory and horrifying to me. Hacking into healthy, functioning flesh for what may be hormonal imbalance and psychological maladjustment. You'll never be a woman: you can have breast implants and get your penis butchered, so on and so forth----that doesn't make you a biological woman. And vice versa; a woman can get her breasts cut off, and some type of ersatz penis constructed around her clitoris-----that doesn't make you a biological man.
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post #24 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 08:51 AM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Everything is on a spectrum. Male on one side, female on the other, balance of hormones making us each gender. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look around and see there are lots of feminine males, and masculine females. It's all on a spectrum. I know some men that are super emotional, some women that are tough as nails. There is something going on that is causing men to have low testosterone.
Anyway... there's what we have physically, vagina and penis and then there is our hormonal composition that makes us FEEL like a certain gender. And sometimes I don't believe they match.

All I know is that I was born female, and I feel like a female.
I don't know what it feels like to be born the wrong gender. I don't know what it feels like to be attracted to women. Therefore I refrain from judgement and offer them compassion because I wouldn't want to feel that way and I'm sorry for those that do.
Masculinity and Femininity, as concepts regarding how men and women behave and interact in society are on a spectrum, to a degree--still not sure that is quite the way to describe them. Male and female are not. Male and female are anatomical. To act as though they are subjective is the anatomical equivalent of saying that if your pancreas wishes it hard enough, it can become a kidney. It flies in the face of reality.

No matter how much I wish I were a woman, I cannot change it. No matter how much I mutilate my body, I cannot change it. It is far better that I learn to live with, and love myself for who I am.

I like to use the body dysphoria example as it is directly analogous. If I feel like my eyes are wrong, and I want to have you help make me blind, would you say that "well, sight is on a sliding scale..."? No sane person would. And no ethical medical professional would. I would be directed to seek help for my affliction, to learn to control this very unhealthy and terrible feeling. Same with my hands. Or fingers. Or toes. Or ear lobes. Or appendix. Or a kidney. Or a lung. Or any other part of me.

Let's take another example... something drastically more controversial...

Pedophilia is a feeling. A desire--sexually--for children. If it is wrong to judge people who have feelings that we do not, then it must be wrong to judge pedophiles. If it is wrong to tell people they can't act out these feelings, then it is wrong to tell pedophiles that they cannot act out their feelings...

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #25 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:02 AM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
The ideas of gender have been changing rapidly in the west. Two trends that I notice are the blurring of gender roles and the blurring of personally defined gender.

What I find interesting is that the two are sort of redundant. If the roles or men and women in society, their clothes etc become the same, then what does it mean to define oneself as a different gender than one's birth gender?

I was born male and consider myself male. But what if I considered myself female? In a society where the roles are equal, as a male I can stay home raising children, work as a nurse etc. I have no interest in knowing.

In most of life I have no more interest in someones gender than in their orientation. I have co-workers who may be gay, trans etc,

The only place I see a real difference is in dating / relationships where most people have an immutable preferred gender (unless they are bisexual). In that case though, ones biological gender still matters - even after sex change operations, people cannot function as the other gender with respect to having children.


I don't have a real point her, I just think the changes in the definition of genders are interesting.
Gender is far more important than modern society tries to make out. Men and women are fundamentally different - nothing to do with being "trained" to be male or female. Just watch this:

In the main, women prefer minding and raising children and men prefer going out to work. There are exceptions, and that's fine, but generally speaking there are lots of women who want to stay home and raise their kids compared to men.

For the small percentage of people born male or female, but feel they are the other sex, I have no problem with this, in fact it reinforces the idea that there are two genders, and it's not a "social construct".

A lot of society's problems are caused by men and women being "expected" to do certain things, e.g. a woman who is a SAHM is somehow a failed woman and inferior to the ball busting female CEO, while the opposite is true.

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post #26 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:05 AM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Masculinity and Femininity, as concepts regarding how men and women behave and interact in society are on a spectrum, to a degree--still not sure that is quite the way to describe them. Male and female are not. Male and female are anatomical. To act as though they are subjective is the anatomical equivalent of saying that if your pancreas wishes it hard enough, it can become a kidney. It flies in the face of reality.

No matter how much I wish I were a woman, I cannot change it. No matter how much I mutilate my body, I cannot change it. It is far better that I learn to live with, and love myself for who I am.

I like to use the body dysphoria example as it is directly analogous. If I feel like my eyes are wrong, and I want to have you help make me blind, would you say that "well, sight is on a sliding scale..."? No sane person would. And no ethical medical professional would. I would be directed to seek help for my affliction, to learn to control this very unhealthy and terrible feeling. Same with my hands. Or fingers. Or toes. Or ear lobes. Or appendix. Or a kidney. Or a lung. Or any other part of me.

Let's take another example... something drastically more controversial...

Pedophilia is a feeling. A desire--sexually--for children. If it is wrong to judge people who have feelings that we do not, then it must be wrong to judge pedophiles. If it is wrong to tell people they can't act out these feelings, then it is wrong to tell pedophiles that they cannot act out their feelings...
I agree with most of this, except the pedophile example. Pedophiles damage children's lives, transgender people do not. I think it's wrong to transition children, but adults who want it, let them! They are not doing any harm to anyone except possibly themselves, and anything I've read on it, they are much happier, so why not?
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post #27 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:18 AM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Good Guy View Post
I agree with most of this, except the pedophile example. Pedophiles damage children's lives, transgender people do not. I think it's wrong to transition children, but adults who want it, let them! They are not doing any harm to anyone except possibly themselves, and anything I've read on it, they are much happier, so why not?
What about trans people who can "pass" for their desired sex? It is a fraud, and a fraud of the most egregious kind to lie to someone who may court you, about your gender. Is integrity that meaningless to people today?

I directly chose pedophilia because I knew it would cause a guttural reaction from even many of the "progressives" out there. Don't you want to live out a life of tolerance? These people can't control how they feel, and you would make it illegal to feel the way they're bodies make them? What if they don't cause the child pain, and only pleasure? What if the child wants it? What if the "child" identifies as an adult? What if the adult identifies as a child? In many jurisdictions, minors can have sexual relations with other minors.

Do we place a man who "identifies as a woman" in a female prison? How about a woman who "identifies as a man" being placed into a male prison? That seems like a bad idea...

ETA
you have heard wrong. There had been no demonstrated relief for the afflicted who have their bodies mutilated. There is a massive suicide rate and tremendous regret amon those who do have their bodies mutilated. There are no demonstrated benefits and massive demonstrated issues.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...

Last edited by Kivlor; 01-04-2017 at 10:58 AM.
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post #28 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:37 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

As long as people of either gender can fill either role if they want, that is fine with me. If the majority choose traditional roles, that is OK.


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Originally Posted by Good Guy View Post
Gender is far more important than modern society tries to make out. Men and women are fundamentally different - nothing to do with being "trained" to be male or female. Just watch this:

In the main, women prefer minding and raising children and men prefer going out to work. There are exceptions, and that's fine, but generally speaking there are lots of women who want to stay home and raise their kids compared to men.

For the small percentage of people born male or female, but feel they are the other sex, I have no problem with this, in fact it reinforces the idea that there are two genders, and it's not a "social construct".

A lot of society's problems are caused by men and women being "expected" to do certain things, e.g. a woman who is a SAHM is somehow a failed woman and inferior to the ball busting female CEO, while the opposite is true.
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post #29 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:39 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

Is gender fraud in relationships any more common than all the other sorts of relationship frauds? There are married people who date pretending to be single. There are abusers. There are people who know they have STDs.

I don't have any numbers but I'd suspect the number of trans people who are dating without telling potential partners is pretty small.


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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
What about trans people who can "pass" for their desired sex? It is a fraud, and a fraud of the most egregious kind to lie to someone who may court you, about your gender. Is integrity that meaningless to people today?

I directly chose pedophilia because I knew it would cause a guttural reaction from even many of the "progressives" out there. Don't you want to live out a life of tolerance? These people can't control how they feel, and you would make it illegal to feel the way they're bodies make them? What if they don't cause the child pain, and only pleasure? What if the child wants it? What if the "child" identifies as an adult? What if the adult identifies as a child? In many jurisdictions, minors can have sexual relations with other minors.

Do we place a man who "identifies as a woman" in a female prison? How about a woman who "identifies as a man" being placed into a male prison? That seems like a bad idea...
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post #30 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 10:12 AM
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Re: Gender

Comparing transgender to pedophilia is wrong and offensive.
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