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post #31 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 10:41 AM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Comparing transgender to pedophilia is wrong and offensive.
Could you break down the logical issues with such a comparison? Or is it just that you don't like it?

If you're going to pick up the cause for relativism, then go for the gold.

I think it is a great analogy for the discussion. It is generally thought that there is some imbalance causing a pedophile to have such desires. Just like a "trans".(any trans, ie age gender, species, etc) It is neither the fault of a pedophile nor a trans person for their "feelings", they can't help it. The argument comes into its full beauty when we add in the trans age concept.

Also, if we just want to appeal to sensibilities like "that's offensive" then I shall posit that trans anything is by definition wrong and offensive.


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
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For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
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post #32 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

It depends on your definition of "pedophilia". If you mean a sexual interest in children, but where that interest is never in any way acted upon, then I agree. People are free to desire whatever they want - their thoughts are none of anyone else's business. Same applies for someone who desires to be a different gender but never acts on this desire in any way.

If instead you mean people who engage in some sort of sexual activity with children as compared with people who change their genders, then there is all the difference in the world.

Children cannot consent, so sexual activity with a child is rape, a very serious crime, and a moral outrage. Changing ones gender does not directly harm anyone else, so it is completely different. Its like the difference between masturbation and rape.

For clarity, by "children" I mean people to young to consent. I don't agree with the present laws on the age of consent.

Also for clarity I am referring to adult trans-gender people. Transgender children has the potential for the same sort of consent issues.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Could you break down the logical issues with such a comparison? Or is it just that you don't like it?

If you're going to pick up the cause for relativism, then go for the gold.

I think it is a great analogy for the discussion. It is generally thought that there is some imbalance causing a pedophile to have such desires. Just like a "trans".(any trans, ie age gender, species, etc) It is neither the fault of a pedophile nor a trans person for their "feelings", they can't help it. The argument comes into its full beauty when we add in the trans age concept.

Also, if we just want to appeal to sensibilities like "that's offensive" then I shall posit that trans anything is by definition wrong and offensive.
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post #33 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 11:02 AM
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Re: Gender

Pedophilia, like rape is a crime. A disgusting crime where the victims rights were taken away from them, and they were forced to do something. There was no mutual consent. Don't you get that? That's everything. It's terrible. Crime is a crime because it causing harm to someone else.
Transgender is feeling like you were born the wrong gender. Who knows what hormones they have in their body. Adults have the freedom to do what they want with their own body. As long as they are declared mentally competent. It's like homosexuality. Who cares who other people choose to have sex with, as long as it's consensual. Who cares if other people want to change genders. You have no problems with women getting. Breast implants, liposuction. Men getting hair transplants. Who cares what other people choose to do with their own body it's non of your business.
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post #34 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 11:02 AM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
It depends on your definition of "pedophilia". If you mean a sexual interest in children, but where that interest is never in any way acted upon, then I agree. People are free to desire whatever they want - their thoughts are none of anyone else's business. Same applies for someone who desires to be a different gender but never acts on this desire in any way.

If instead you mean people who engage in some sort of sexual activity with children as compared with people who change their genders, then there is all the difference in the world.

Children cannot consent, so sexual activity with a child is rape, a very serious crime, and a moral outrage. Changing ones gender does not directly harm anyone else, so it is completely different. Its like the difference between masturbation and rape.

For clarity, by "children" I mean people to young to consent. I don't agree with the present laws on the age of consent.

Also for clarity I am referring to adult trans-gender people. Transgender children has the potential for the same sort of consent issues.
Your entire argument is refuted by the trans age / species movement. Children can legally have sex with children.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #35 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 11:11 AM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Pedophilia, like rape is a crime. A disgusting crime where the victims rights were taken away from them, and they were forced to do something. There was no mutual consent. Don't you get that? That's everything. It's terrible. Crime is a crime because it causing harm to someone else.
Transgender is feeling like you were born the wrong gender. Who knows what hormones they have in their body. Adults have the freedom to do what they want with their own body. As long as they are declared mentally competent. It's like homosexuality. Who cares who other people choose to have sex with, as long as it's consensual. Who cares if other people want to change genders. You have no problems with women getting. Breast implants, liposuction. Men getting hair transplants. Who cares what other people choose to do with their own body it's non of your business.

See my response to uhtred. You really are going to have an impossible time holding your obviously irreconcilable views. Me, I have no trouble holding my position. I'm bald and have no need to get hair implants because it would be a fraud. I'm stout and would not get liposuction because it is fraud and doesn't address the issue of overeating.

I am building the case that under no objective view would we consider someone who is intent on self mutilation as "mentally competent" and as such trans gender people are not mentally competent and so it actually does fall within the realm of what can be forbidden by society.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #36 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 11:19 AM
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Re: Gender

It drives me nuts that people need to feel the same way for them to know it exists. If you don't feel it, then they are liars. It's like when your driving, those going faster than you are maniacs, those going slower than you are geriatrics. You don't get to set the normal standard for everyone. The world is bigger than you.

It's like people who believe homosexuality is a choice. This is offensive. Just because you don't share those feelings that they do, doesn't mean they are wrong. You saying it's a choice is telling all those people that they are lairs and they are making it up. Who are you to determine that? Just because you don't share the same feelings as them.

It's the same thing as transgender. It's been around for thousands of years. And just because you don't feel like you were born the wrong gender doesn't give you the right to discredit those that do.

I subscribe to the notion of believing in people. If someone tells me they like the same sex, I believe them. If they tell me they were born the wrong sex, I believe them. I don't know what that feels like, but I know that I don't set the standard for how people should think and feel.
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post #37 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 11:20 AM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
What about trans people who can "pass" for their desired sex? It is a fraud, and a fraud of the most egregious kind to lie to someone who may court you, about your gender. Is integrity that meaningless to people today?
If I want to date a woman who is a transgender man, I would expect them to tell me - that's kind of important information. I wouldn't personally continue such a relationship, but that's my choice.

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I directly chose pedophilia because I knew it would cause a guttural reaction from even many of the "progressives" out there. Don't you want to live out a life of tolerance? These people can't control how they feel, and you would make it illegal to feel the way they're bodies make them? What if they don't cause the child pain, and only pleasure? What if the child wants it? What if the "child" identifies as an adult? What if the adult identifies as a child? In many jurisdictions, minors can have sexual relations with other minors.
A child is legally a child until 18 and whose parents are responsible for (at least where I live, and I believe it's the same in the US) with good reason. Children can easily be persuaded anything when they are small. So I don't identify with this nonsense at all. In fact I'm very much against a lot of the politically correct nonsense that go on today. It might surprise you to learn I'm against abortion in a lot of cases, and don't buy the whole "it's a woman's body" argument. I'm of the opinion if you want to poke your eyes out and are of sound mind otherwise then why should I stop you? If you want to poke MY eyes out, that's a different story.

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Do we place a man who "identifies as a woman" in a female prison? How about a woman who "identifies as a man" being placed into a male prison? That seems like a bad idea...
That's a tough one. I would say yes - but only those who have had hormonal and gender reassignment surgery.

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
ETA
you have heard wrong. There had been no demonstrated relief for the afflicted who have their bodies mutilated. There is a massive suicide rate and tremendous regret amon those who do have their bodies mutilated. There are no demonstrated benefits and massive demonstrated issues.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Wow, you are right. Thanks for making me think about this.
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post #38 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

I don't know the laws on sex between children, but if there is a significant age difference it is considered abuse, though maybe requiring therapy rather than prison if the abuser is also very young.

I've agreed that transgender CHILDREN is a tricky issue, but if we are talking about transgener adults, then I see no similarity at all to pedophilia (which by definition involves children).


To be very clear: Sex without consent is rape and is bad. Children cannot consent to sex, so sex with children is bad. Adult transgender people are able to consent and are not harming anyone else, so I see no connection.


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Your entire argument is refuted by the trans age / species movement. Children can legally have sex with children.
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post #39 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 11:22 AM
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Re: Gender

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Your entire argument is refuted by the trans age / species movement. Children can legally have sex with children.
Not where I live they can't.
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post #40 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 11:22 AM
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Re: Gender

We're just going to disagree. I believe we only have one life to live and it's short. People are allowed to do what they want as long as it harms no one. The end. People like you care way too much about how other people choose to live and I will never understand why.

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post #41 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 11:28 AM
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Re: Gender

I don't care what other people think. I care about their actions. If you want to think about having sex with kids, go for it. If you want to think racist thoughts, go for it. If you want to think of killing your ex wife, go for it. I do care when someone harms another person. When someone watches child porn I care.
Transgender people are harming literally no one.
Your argument does not stand.
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post #42 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 11:34 AM
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Re: Gender

Pedophila and rape are trigger words to me. You don't have to be "progressive" to care about the well being of people, I thought that was being human.

If you feel the same hatred and disgust to transgenders that you do with phedophils and rapists... there is something wrong with you.
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post #43 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:08 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
I subscribe to the notion of believing in people. If someone tells me they like the same sex, I believe them. If they tell me they were born the wrong sex, I believe them. I don't know what that feels like, but I know that I don't set the standard for how people should think and feel.
Just so I understand your position correctly:

1) If someone told you they truly believed they were a penguin trapped in a humans body would you believe them?

2) If someone told you they truly believed they were Jesus Christ and you had to worship them would you believe them?

3) If someone told you they truly believed they were twelve years old (an obvious adult) so its okay for them to have sex with other preteens would you believe them?

I don't know what those things "feel like" either but you bet people like that are out there. Just wondering where you draw the line...

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” - Maya Angelou

Last edited by BetrayedDad; 01-04-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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post #44 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:12 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Transgender people are harming literally no one.
True until they are getting naked in the girls locker room because that's how they "identify".

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” - Maya Angelou
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post #45 of 235 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:15 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
I don't know the laws on sex between children, but if there is a significant age difference it is considered abuse, though maybe requiring therapy rather than prison if the abuser is also very young.

I've agreed that transgender CHILDREN is a tricky issue, but if we are talking about transgener adults, then I see no similarity at all to pedophilia (which by definition involves children).


To be very clear: Sex without consent is rape and is bad. Children cannot consent to sex, so sex with children is bad. Adult transgender people are able to consent and are not harming anyone else, so I see no connection.
You haven't addressed the issue of a trans age person, who identifies as a minor. How dare you judge their feelings as invalid? How dare you claim they are wrong? That their actions related to such are immoral? How do you recognize "gender" dysphoria, but not age dysphoria? If anything, age dysphoria truly hurts no one, because it is completely on paper and in the mind. It doesn't require any mutilation...

Sex between minors in most jurisdictions is allowed, as long as the ages are within 3-4 years...

If a trans age person who identifies as 8, but was born in 1958 has sex with 20 year old, is the 20 year old a sex criminal?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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