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post #61 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:01 PM
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Re: Gender

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Oh no not that... who cares!!!!
Parents, who have the moral right to choose how their children are raised, and in what ways they interact with others?

Or were you attempting to pretend there isn't an issue here?

Herein lies the great issue @BetrayedDad :

We are arguing from objective ethics and objective experience. Those arguing in favor of the trans movement argue from neither that nor relativism. They have no principles, not even the principle that there are no principles. It is a game to them. If you want to bring up ethics and enforce them, they cry "Relativism is real! There is no right or objective ethos!" and simultaneously, if you respond, well, that means I'm not wrong, and you can't object to my treatment of X category of people, then they respond "No! They have RIGHTS!" completely missing the cognitive dissonance required for this position.


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #62 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:02 PM
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Re: Gender

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Shlong flapping in the wind and all. Just hanging out with the ladies. Really?



I'd bet my house PLENTY of women care even you don't. Why do they have to deal with it?


If I see a **** in the locker room it can easily be reported and they will be removed.

Transgender people should be sensitive to other people's feelings. If Bruce Jenner wants to use the women's locker room, that's fine as long as he isn't flapping his **** around, or staring at women's bodies. Just like a women who stares at me when I change... I can report it.

I can walk around butt naked in the locker room. But I will open myself up to people looking at me, maybe some judgmental faces or snide comments. But that's what I welcomed by being so free. Some people are private and change in a stall, or in a manner that covers up their body. If Bruce Jenner wants to use my locker room fine, the same rules apply to him. If I see a **** in the locker room I am reporting it. If I see anyone staring at me inappropriately I will report it. I don't get the issue.
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post #63 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

We have to separate issues in order to have a rational discussion. If someone talks about equal rights for African Americans, it is assumed that they mean "African Americans who are not otherwise unusual in some unrelated way". So someone saying "but what about African American terrorists?" is pointless - equal rights implies that an African American terrorist be treated like any other terrorist.

Similarly, equal rights for trans persons assumes that trans terrorists, trans-rapists, trans-children etc are treated like terrorist, rapist, or children.

The question is whether being trans in and of itself changes how someone should be treated.


To answer your specific question: a trans rapist is a rapist because society has decided that a certain set of actions count as rape.

No one is arguing that ALL behaviors be tolerated, rather they are arguing that those behaviors that do not directly negatively impact others should be tolerated. Rape impacts others so it is NOT tolerated. Homosexuality does not directly impact others, so it should be tolerated. Same for trans people.

There are of course a lot of grey areas where behavior has *some* impact on others, but I don't see any significant impact on others from someone being trans.


On your other comment: Trans age is a request to be treated DIFFERENTLY (eg like a child) not a request to be treated the same way. Same for trans species (though if someone wants to self-identify as as dog, but still act like a human in all ways, that's fine with me).


I think it really is pretty simple: Does a behavior cause significant harm to others? If not, then its OK, if so, then its not OK. There is of course lots of valid discussion on what is or is not "significant'.



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They are part of the "trans community" and are completely related to trans gender. Every argument in favor of trans gender is being used in favor of trans age and trans species.

What is the difference?

What if they don't identify as a rapist? Who are you to label them as such?
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post #64 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

In my opinion, anyone should be able to identify as any race, and for that very reason I prefer other alternatives to affirmative action. I'd much rather see money spent to equalize educational opportunities. (eg federally funded education, not funded through local jursidictions which vary wildly in the amount of money that they have available).

And no, I do not support the entire "liberal" agenda, just parts of it.


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Originally Posted by BetrayedDad View Post
Rachel Dolezal resigns; accused of lying about race - CNN.com

Remember this lady? The white woman who "identified" as black?!?

Is she entitled to black scholarships or affirmative action now? Why not?
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post #65 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:07 PM
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Re: Gender

Kids are exposed to way worse than the human body getting changed in a locker room. It's just a body who cares. I'm sure I have been in a locker room with a transgender but haven't known it. I'm more worried about men putting cameras in the changing room and bathrooms than a transgender getting changed.
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post #66 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:11 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
If I see a **** in the locker room I am reporting it. If I see anyone staring at me inappropriately I will report it. I don't get the issue.
Wait, didn't you just mock the whole "Hey I don't want your son going into my daughter's locker room to change / shower" mentality.

How do you reconcile your ridiculous position with this:

Quote:
Kids are exposed to way worse than the human body getting changed in a locker room. It's just a body who cares. I'm sure I have been in a locker room with a transgender but haven't known it. I'm more worried about men putting cameras in the changing room and bathrooms than a transgender getting changed.
Ah, the cognitive dissonance... I do bask in it a bit.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #67 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:14 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Parents, who have the moral right to choose how their children are raised, and in what ways they interact with others?



Or were you attempting to pretend there isn't an issue here?



Herein lies the great issue @BetrayedDad :



We are arguing from objective ethics and objective experience. Those arguing in favor of the trans movement argue from neither that nor relativism. They have no principles, not even the principle that there are no principles. It is a game to them. If you want to bring up ethics and enforce them, they cry "Relativism is real! There is no right or objective ethos!" and simultaneously, if you respond, well, that means I'm not wrong, and you can't object to my treatment of X category of people, then they respond "No! They have RIGHTS!" completely missing the cognitive dissonance required for this position.


What are you talking about ethics and principles, what are they doing so wrong??? They are not harming anyone! People have rights... is that a problem for you?
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post #68 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:15 PM
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Re: Gender

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What I find interesting is that the two are sort of redundant. If the roles or men and women in society, their clothes etc become the same.
Interesting, the fashion is becoming blurred.
For example, when skinny jeans first entered the market, they were a women's item of clothing, now it's a unisex item.

Quote:
In a society where the roles are equal, as a male I can stay home raising children
We have seen a few threads here where the marriages have struggled with a "househusband" although it's probably just a bad marriage, the role in which the man has been placed, he can become emasculated. He could have been brought up in a traditional household, where his Mom is at home. It will take another few decades before the roles really are equal.

Also marriages struggling with the equality thing, two parents working full time with children often become exhausted, the marriage is left to deteriorate.

So maybe gender roles are important for some couples?

My marriage is considered traditional, because we were both brought up that way, when we tried to become "more equal" the relationship between us had more conflicts until we decided that we would go back to what worked best.

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post #69 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:18 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Wait, didn't you just mock the whole "Hey I don't want your son going into my daughter's locker room to change / shower" mentality.

How do you reconcile your ridiculous position with this:



Ah, the cognitive dissonance... I do bask in it a bit.


I don't care if there is a transgender in the locker room with me. There probably has been and I haven't known. If there is a women getting changed in the corner and she quickly drops her towel to put on her underwear and I accidentally look her way and I see she has a penis... who cares!!!!

That's different than a women walking around in the lockerroom naked with her penis flopping out. Even then I probably wouldn't care so much to be honest, but I understand why some people would be uncomfortable.
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post #70 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:23 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
We have to separate issues in order to have a rational discussion. If someone talks about equal rights for African Americans, it is assumed that they mean "African Americans who are not otherwise unusual in some unrelated way". So someone saying "but what about African American terrorists?" is pointless - equal rights implies that an African American terrorist be treated like any other terrorist.

Similarly, equal rights for trans persons assumes that trans terrorists, trans-rapists, trans-children etc are treated like terrorist, rapist, or children.

The question is whether being trans in and of itself changes how someone should be treated.


To answer your specific question: a trans rapist is a rapist because society has decided that a certain set of actions count as rape.

No one is arguing that ALL behaviors be tolerated, rather they are arguing that those behaviors that do not directly negatively impact others should be tolerated. Rape impacts others so it is NOT tolerated. Homosexuality does not directly impact others, so it should be tolerated. Same for trans people.

There are of course a lot of grey areas where behavior has *some* impact on others, but I don't see any significant impact on others from someone being trans.


On your other comment: Trans age is a request to be treated DIFFERENTLY (eg like a child) not a request to be treated the same way. Same for trans species (though if someone wants to self-identify as as dog, but still act like a human in all ways, that's fine with me).


I think it really is pretty simple: Does a behavior cause significant harm to others? If not, then its OK, if so, then its not OK. There is of course lots of valid discussion on what is or is not "significant'.
They aren't terrorists. And if they don't identify as rapists, can they be rapists? I thought we aren't supposed to be judging people?

All trans issues are a request to be treated DIFFERENTLY, not a request to be treated the same. A man wants to be treated differently than other men. A woman wants to be treated differently than other women. A 60 year old wants to be treated differently than other 60 year olds. A 12 year old wants to be treated differently than other 12 year olds. An individual wants to be treated like a dog or cat, not a person.

You don't make any sense, and if you take the time to analyze your concepts deeply, you'll see that they don't hold up to any scrutiny.

Now, regarding negative impact and tolerance, see my response to Katie about empathy. Something I think you are obviously lacking in your mad rush to accept all feelings and opinions as equally good/bad.

You still never addressed the issue of trans-age and minors. What if the "minor" identifies as a 60 year old? The 60 year old as a "minor"? Do we take them at their word, or do we say "No. You are [category] as objectively determined. Thus this is not how we will treat you." If you do that with trans-age people, why not with trans gender? Trans species? Otherkin?


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #71 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:30 PM
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Re: Gender

@Kivlor you are all over the place. Talking about pedophila, identifying as a minor, your trying to connect something that isn't connecting. The truth is, you don't understand transgender people and you think it's gross. Your trying to criminalize them, but it didn't work. Now your trying to pull in ethics and principles and it isn't working.

The truth is you are doing to transgenders what people did to homosexuals back in the day. You are trying to criminalize them, trying to make them a psychiatric illness and mentally unfit, and your trying to strip their human rights away as you attempt to prove this.
Transgender people are <1% of the population. There is no homosexual agenda, no trans agenda. You need to let go and accept that some people think different than you and that's ok. Doesn't mean they are mentally unfit, doesn't mean they don't deserve rights.

This negative energy should be focused on things that really are a problem... like pedophila, like rape. You want to talk about ethics and principles? Let's talk about pedophilia and the Catholic Church ok. Leave transgender people alone.
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post #72 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:35 PM
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Re: Gender

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What are you talking about ethics and principles, what are they doing so wrong??? They are not harming anyone! People have rights... is that a problem for you?
Ummm... I think you misunderstand what rights are.

Little boys don't have a "right" to strip naked and shower with little girls after gym class. You are obviously entering complete foaming at the mouth madness here.

As a parent, you do have a right to determine how your child is raised, what activities they engage in and don't, etc.

What is a "right" Katie? Where does it come from? What makes it right? I think you should start at those concepts before you enter into a very deep discussion on whether or not something is a right.

Quote:
I don't care if there is a transgender in the locker room with me. There probably has been and I haven't known. If there is a women getting changed in the corner and she quickly drops her towel to put on her underwear and I accidentally look her way and I see she has a penis... who cares!!!!

That's different than a women walking around in the lockerroom naked with her penis flopping out. Even then I probably wouldn't care so much to be honest, but I understand why some people would be uncomfortable.
Not what you said before. You were quite clear you'd call the authorities... Can you hold a principled position for at least 1 page thread?

I already answered the "why do you care" question. To which you have no rebuttal, because you have no ground to stand on. The farther this argument goes, the more the pro-trans people look unhinged in this belief. It's a right! There is no right and wrong! How dare you judge people! You're wrong! You are holding several completely irreconcilable positions.


* * * *
To all of you who are caught up in "who is harmed", the "harm as only wrong" concept of morality is easily dispelled on TAM, via a very hated activity on this site: cheating. If you cheat, and aren't caught and don't contract a disease, then no one is harmed. Yet it is immoral. It is unethical. It is wrong. Or do you want to take up the position that cheating isn't wrong/bad/unethical/immoral so long as you don't get caught?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
Kivlor is online now  
post #73 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:36 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
They aren't terrorists. And if they don't identify as rapists, can they be rapists? I thought we aren't supposed to be judging people?



All trans issues are a request to be treated DIFFERENTLY, not a request to be treated the same. A man wants to be treated differently than other men. A woman wants to be treated differently than other women. A 60 year old wants to be treated differently than other 60 year olds. A 12 year old wants to be treated differently than other 12 year olds. An individual wants to be treated like a dog or cat, not a person.



You don't make any sense, and if you take the time to analyze your concepts deeply, you'll see that they don't hold up to any scrutiny.



Now, regarding negative impact and tolerance, see my response to Katie about empathy. Something I think you are obviously lacking in your mad rush to accept all feelings and opinions as equally good/bad.



You still never addressed the issue of trans-age and minors. What if the "minor" identifies as a 60 year old? The 60 year old as a "minor"? Do we take them at their word, or do we say "No. You are [category] as objectively determined. Thus this is not how we will treat you." If you do that with trans-age people, why not with trans gender? Trans species? Otherkin?


You are wrong. Men and women have equal rights and the laws that apply to them are the same. An adult and a minor are not equal and they have different laws that apply to them. A trans person is being asked to be treated as the gender they identify them self with. And I hope you treat men and women the same, as they have equal rights. Therefore they aren't breaking any rules.

I already addressed the identifying as a minor before.
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post #74 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:40 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
@Kivlor you are all over the place. Talking about pedophila, identifying as a minor, your trying to connect something that isn't connecting. The truth is, you don't understand transgender people and you think it's gross. Your trying to criminalize them, but it didn't work. Now your trying to pull in ethics and principles and it isn't working.

The truth is you are doing to transgenders what people did to homosexuals back in the day. You are trying to criminalize them, trying to make them a psychiatric illness and mentally unfit, and your trying to strip their human rights away as you attempt to prove this.
Transgender people are <1% of the population. There is no homosexual agenda, no trans agenda. You need to let go and accept that some people think different than you and that's ok. Doesn't mean they are mentally unfit, doesn't mean they don't deserve rights.

This negative energy should be focused on things that really are a problem... like pedophila, like rape. You want to talk about ethics and principles? Let's talk about pedophilia and the Catholic Church ok. Leave transgender people alone.
If you note, I've said nothing about criminalizing them.

I'm specifically discussing trans issues. You just don't like them. I even cited examples early on. The truth is that you don't understand ethics, and can't hold a consistent position for 2 posts in a row.

Is it your contention that body dysphoria is not a recognized mental illness that is also heavily associated with depression and suicidal tendencies?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #75 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:40 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
Ummm... I think you misunderstand what rights are.



Little boys don't have a "right" to strip naked and shower with little girls after gym class. You are obviously entering complete foaming at the mouth madness here.



As a parent, you do have a right to determine how your child is raised, what activities they engage in and don't, etc.



What is a "right" Katie? Where does it come from? What makes it right? I think you should start at those concepts before you enter into a very deep discussion on whether or not something is a right.







Not what you said before. You were quite clear you'd call the authorities... Can you hold a principled position for at least 1 page thread?



I already answered the "why do you care" question. To which you have no rebuttal, because you have no ground to stand on. The farther this argument goes, the more the pro-trans people look unhinged in this belief. It's a right! There is no right and wrong! How dare you judge people! You're wrong! You are holding several completely irreconcilable positions.





* * * *

To all of you who are caught up in "who is harmed", the "harm as only wrong" concept of morality is easily dispelled on TAM, via a very hated activity on this site: cheating. If you cheat, and aren't caught and don't contract a disease, then no one is harmed. Yet it is immoral. It is unethical. It is wrong. Or do you want to take up the position that cheating isn't wrong/bad/unethical/immoral so long as you don't get caught?


Cheating is harmful even if you don't contract an disease. I don't know how you can think otherwise.

Cheating is morally wrong yes. But I have the right to cheat on my spouse if I want to. There are no laws in place that if I cheat I will go to jail.
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