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post #76 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:41 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
You are wrong. Men and women have equal rights and the laws that apply to them are the same. An adult and a minor are not equal and they have different laws that apply to them. A trans person is being asked to be treated as the gender they identify them self with. And I hope you treat men and women the same, as they have equal rights. Therefore they aren't breaking any rules.

I already addressed the identifying as a minor before.
How can you tell if they are a minor or an "adult"? Can you judge what is going on in their heads?


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #77 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:42 PM
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Re: Gender

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How can you tell if they are a minor or an "adult"? Can you judge what is going on in their heads?


It doesn't matter what they identify them-self as don't you get that!!!! It matters if they break the law!!!!!!!
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post #78 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:43 PM
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Re: Gender

And you are criminalizing them by comparing them to pedophiles!
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post #79 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:44 PM
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Re: Gender

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It doesn't matter what they identify them-self as don't you get that!!!! It matters if they break the law!!!!!!!
And my point stands. Thank you.

So if we pass a law against trans-gender, there is no problem, yes?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #80 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:46 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
And you are criminalizing them by comparing them to pedophiles!
No, it isn't. It's a comparison. They are analogous, but not the same. As such, they are a useful tool.

Even advocating to ban the mutilation surgery wouldn't be criminalizing trans-gender people. Just as banning sex with minors doesn't criminalize pedophiles simply for their urges, it only criminalizes a behavior we doe not desire to see spread in society.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #81 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:47 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
And my point stands. Thank you.



So if we pass a law against trans-gender, there is no problem, yes?

Yes there is no problem.
I believe in following the laws. Even if it's a bad law. I also believe in fighting to get bad laws changed. Like refusing to serve people based on their race. Like women can't vote. Like women can't own property. Like women can't take out a loan. These were all bad laws at one point that were changed.
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post #82 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:51 PM
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Re: Gender

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If I see a **** in the locker room it can easily be reported and they will be removed.
Removed for what?!?

The transgender is in the locker room to change his/her clothes. So he/she has to remove his/her clothes, go into a shower, come out and put new clothes on.

This will involve him/her BEING NAKED. What do you think a locker room is for? He/she will have to expose himself to other women to accomplish this. This is how the locker room at MY gym works.

I see fair more naked old gross male bodies on a weekly basis then I ever care too. Believe me.

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Transgender people should be sensitive to other people's feelings. If Bruce Jenner wants to use the women's locker room, that's fine as long as he isn't flapping his **** around, or staring at women's bodies.
LOL dream on....

YOU must accept them. YOU must be sensitive to THEM. THEY identify as a women 100%. YOU can not treat them any other way. That includes THEM having a conversation with you while they stand their butt naked, **** out, in a locker room like any other woman may choose to do. How dare you expect them to act any differently than you! Why should they have to hide themselves if you don't have too?

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” - Maya Angelou
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post #83 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:53 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Cheating is harmful even if you don't contract an disease. I don't know how you can think otherwise.

Cheating is morally wrong yes. But I have the right to cheat on my spouse if I want to. There are no laws in place that if I cheat I will go to jail.
Okay, now apply this logic to what I've said here Katie.

I didn't say "make it illegal to be trans". In fact I've advocated empathy for transfolk, saying that they need help for their disease--a defined, and recognized disease, which we are seeing a movement to make some special accommodation for because "they're just like homosexuals!" which doesn't make sense... We wouldn't make the accommodation for a person wanting to mutilate any other part of their body, we would get them help.

Something can be bad, and not be made illegal. Something can be good and be made illegal.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #84 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

I know two couples where the husband stays home. In one, he really is a house-husband, does the chores, raises kids etc. His wife has as high-tech job. They seem happy, and it seems to work for them.

In the other the husband is just a lazy bastard, and doesn't really do anything. They are unhappy.

Personally, being a house husband doesn't suit my personality, but I don't mind if others choose to do so.

I think gender roles are very important for a couple to discuss before they commit long term. I think there are many things that can work, but only if both are fully on board with the situation.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsAldi View Post
Interesting, the fashion is becoming blurred.
For example, when skinny jeans first entered the market, they were a women's item of clothing, now it's a unisex item.



We have seen a few threads here where the marriages have struggled with a "househusband" although it's probably just a bad marriage, the role in which the man has been placed, he can become emasculated. He could have been brought up in a traditional household, where his Mom is at home. It will take another few decades before the roles really are equal.

Also marriages struggling with the equality thing, two parents working full time with children often become exhausted, the marriage is left to deteriorate.

So maybe gender roles are important for some couples?

My marriage is considered traditional, because we were both brought up that way, when we tried to become "more equal" the relationship between us had more conflicts until we decided that we would go back to what worked best.

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post #85 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:01 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
Transgender has nothing to do with identifying as a younger age.
I see your point but really disturbing stories like this seem to suggest that the nature of the delusion is related.




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post #86 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:01 PM
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Re: Gender

You have to deal with it.

I'm allowed to augment my breast size if I choose. My husband is allowed to cut off his penis if he chooses. I can take medication to lower my blood pressure. My husband can take medication to increase his estrogen.

We have one life. We should choose how we want to live it. I don't understand why people get so wrapped up in what other people do.

I understand that the issue of what lockerroom trans people should go into is a sensitive one. I understand both sides. But the reality is... trans are <1% of the population. The chances of us being in the locker room at the same time they are, and well as being in such Close proximity to them when they change is really really low. It's becoming a big issue for no reason.
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post #87 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

I forgot to add, fashion also varies a lot with time and place. Kilts. Renaissance men's tights and what are essentially brightly colored dresses etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsAldi View Post
Interesting, the fashion is becoming blurred.
snip
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post #88 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:05 PM
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Re: Gender

Being a women... a lot worse has happened to me by straight men throughout my life then the small possibility of a transgender getting changed next to me and I see a glance of his d*ck.
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post #89 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:14 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

Neither I or anyone else in this discussion is saying "never judge people". That's would be absurd. I am saying don't judge people negatively for behavior that doesn't affect others. I don't care what people think, but I do care how they act - but only if those actions negatively affect others.

Ideally in society men and women are treated equally so a trans person really isn't asking to be treated differently (the original point of my first post).

If we consider men and women to be equal (as we should), then why not treat someone as whichever gender they prefer (to the extent that there is any difference in treatment).

If you want a discussion on people who wish to be treated as a different age from their own age, that is a fine discussion, but it is a different discussion. It has nothing to do with being trans. If you start a thread, I'll join. Similarly for someone who wants to abandon their humanity and become an animal. Its a different topic.


But what are we really disagreeing on? Who cares if someone wears pants or a dress? Is this really about bathrooms / locker rooms? Honestly I'm not really happy seeing other guys D###s, and don't tend to look at them. If I'm not looking, why should I care whether or not they have one? Why should a woman care if she notices that someone in the locker room as a D##k? I doubt anyone can grow up these days without having seen a picture of one at some point.



What about my concepts doesn't hold up? I want people to be free to behave in ways that don't harm others. I do not want people to be free to behave in ways that do harm others. I am willing to make some allowances for comfort, but I reject the idea that trans-gender men are offensive in the same way that I reject the idea that women who are not wearing nijabs are offensive








Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
They aren't terrorists. And if they don't identify as rapists, can they be rapists? I thought we aren't supposed to be judging people?

All trans issues are a request to be treated DIFFERENTLY, not a request to be treated the same. A man wants to be treated differently than other men. A woman wants to be treated differently than other women. A 60 year old wants to be treated differently than other 60 year olds. A 12 year old wants to be treated differently than other 12 year olds. An individual wants to be treated like a dog or cat, not a person.

You don't make any sense, and if you take the time to analyze your concepts deeply, you'll see that they don't hold up to any scrutiny.

Now, regarding negative impact and tolerance, see my response to Katie about empathy. Something I think you are obviously lacking in your mad rush to accept all feelings and opinions as equally good/bad.

You still never addressed the issue of trans-age and minors. What if the "minor" identifies as a 60 year old? The 60 year old as a "minor"? Do we take them at their word, or do we say "No. You are [category] as objectively determined. Thus this is not how we will treat you." If you do that with trans-age people, why not with trans gender? Trans species? Otherkin?
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post #90 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:29 PM
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Re: Gender

I have a confession. I was born in the western United States and have lived the vast majority of my life there. (85-90%) I don't like Baseball. I was never very good at it. I haven't attended or watched a game in at least 10 years. Not even softball.
Kivlor, would find me guilty of fraud in claiming the rights of United States citizenship, because I clearly can not be an American. Katie would argue that I should be accepted as Australian, and possibly be repatriated.
Personally I don't care what you think. I am what I am. It is all in my mind. I'm sure that some therapy and surgery could make a baseball player out of me. Would it change my happiness? Would it change my probability of Suicide? No, I'd just waste a lot of time doing something I really have no need to like.
If transgender-ism is insanity then it is not Criminal insanity. Quite frankly it has been my experience that anything they can cure is insanity, and anything the haven't figured out how to cure PROFITibly is just diversity.
I'm not holding my breath for a treatment for "baseball apathy" .

Last edited by Mr. Nail; 01-04-2017 at 02:00 PM.
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