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post #91 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:36 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
* * * *
To all of you who are caught up in "who is harmed", the "harm as only wrong" concept of morality is easily dispelled on TAM, via a very hated activity on this site: cheating. If you cheat, and aren't caught and don't contract a disease, then no one is harmed. Yet it is immoral. It is unethical. It is wrong. Or do you want to take up the position that cheating isn't wrong/bad/unethical/immoral so long as you don't get caught?
This is such a ridiculous strawman among a list of ridiculous arguments.

It doesn't matter if the cheater is caught. There is a truth. That truth exists whether anyone knows about it or now. That cheater made a promise and broke it. I don't see any correlation with cheating and transgender at all, other than to belittle.

It reminds me of the silly argument, "If we let gays marry, I should be able to marry my dog."

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post #92 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 03:44 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
Neither I or anyone else in this discussion is saying "never judge people". That's would be absurd. I am saying don't judge people negatively for behavior that doesn't affect others. I don't care what people think, but I do care how they act - but only if those actions negatively affect others.

Ideally in society men and women are treated equally so a trans person really isn't asking to be treated differently (the original point of my first post).

If we consider men and women to be equal (as we should), then why not treat someone as whichever gender they prefer (to the extent that there is any difference in treatment).

If you want a discussion on people who wish to be treated as a different age from their own age, that is a fine discussion, but it is a different discussion. It has nothing to do with being trans. If you start a thread, I'll join. Similarly for someone who wants to abandon their humanity and become an animal. Its a different topic.


But what are we really disagreeing on? Who cares if someone wears pants or a dress? Is this really about bathrooms / locker rooms? Honestly I'm not really happy seeing other guys D###s, and don't tend to look at them. If I'm not looking, why should I care whether or not they have one? Why should a woman care if she notices that someone in the locker room as a D##k? I doubt anyone can grow up these days without having seen a picture of one at some point.



What about my concepts doesn't hold up? I want people to be free to behave in ways that don't harm others. I do not want people to be free to behave in ways that do harm others. I am willing to make some allowances for comfort, but I reject the idea that trans-gender men are offensive in the same way that I reject the idea that women who are not wearing nijabs are offensive
You are conflating equality before the law with sameness. Just because people are equal in the eyes of the law doesn't mean they will be, or even should be treated the same by each other. Men and women aren't the same, so expecting them to treat each other the same just seems strange. And this is demonstrably true, to the point I don't even know why it is up for discussion.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the transgender interaction in public, and how we require people to react to it affects others than those afflicted. The argument for transgenders is not that they should be able to do what they want at home. It is that all of us must accommodate them and their delusion, and pretend they are truthful and right. By saying we should do so, you are directly arguing that we teach children there is nothing wrong with it. That's a far cry from tolerance. That's affirmation. That's participation.

If we were only talking about tolerance, this wouldn't be a discussion. They are tolerated. They are free to do as they please at home without interference legally. They already have those "rights" everyone is carrying on about. What you are arguing for is far more than tolerance, it is acceptance. It is not enough to say "they're wrong, but we will leave them alone" but rather, you are arguing, whether you realize it or not, for enforcement of a value system that states that they are indeed right--when they are objectively wrong.

Welcome to 1984. Where black is white, and the chocolate ration has been increased from 25 grams to 20 grams.

What doesn't hold up is that you pretend people are an island, in order to condone the behavior, meanwhile acknowledging that we are not islands, by demanding that we treat them as if they are [insert category of choice]. It's obvious that you recognize this on some level--even if unconsciously-- by your unwillingness to engage in the trans-age / trans species issues, which are directly related to, and a sub-sect of the greater transfolk movement.

If we must legally treat someone the way they "feel" then a 60 year old that feels like a 12 year old must be treated as such. Which complicates things if that 60 year old engages in what would generally be considered illicit behavior with another 12 year old. Further, do we say that the trans 12 year old can't legally sign a contract? Should they be put up for foster care? Should we enforce truancy laws on them?

Similar questions abound for transgender or transracial people. If they must be accommodated and affirmed, do they get scholarships for being "women" or [insert minority]. Do we need to let transwomen compete with real women in women's sports?

These aren't merely theoretical, these are real issues, with real life consequences. By not accommodating them, we don't harm them. By accommodating them, we don't help them, but we certainly do put the impressionable youth at risk for falling victim to the belief that mutilating their bodies will somehow make them feel good.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #93 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 03:53 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
This is such a ridiculous strawman among a list of ridiculous arguments.

It doesn't matter if the cheater is caught. There is a truth. That truth exists whether anyone knows about it or now. That cheater made a promise and broke it. I don't see any correlation with cheating and transgender at all, other than to belittle.

It reminds me of the silly argument, "If we let gays marry, I should be able to marry my dog."
No, it is an analogy used to explain how it is obvious that "harm" is not necessarily the arbiter of wrong, not an analogy to the wrongness of acting on trans impulses.

Your broken promise doesn't hurt someone if they never find out. I could have used something mundane, but I think if you're going to go for something, go for the big concepts, take a shot at what most people will consider the NUTS as it were. It's a perfect analogy for a Marriage website, in which many of the people here have suffered infidelity, or been unfaithful.

Anyways, it's not a strawman, because I'm not attributing the argument to anyone, but rather stating that I don't think anyone here would argue in favor of cheating being ethical if you don't get caught/a disease, thus the concept "it is only wrong if someone is hurt" is obviously not believed by the very people purporting it.

ETA:
Argument: It is only wrong if you harm another person.
Response: Infidelity, when not caught and no disease is contracted does not harm anyone. Certainly you think Infidelity is wrong, even if you're not caught/didn't contract a disease, right? If so, then your argument is incorrect.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #94 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:09 PM
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Re: Gender

We are never going to agree.

You think transgenders are wrong. Just like people thought homosexuals were wrong. There is no arguing with you. That's your belief and your entitled to it.

I have a different belief. I believe people are entitled to feel the way they want, and live the way they want as long as they harm no one. You want to talk about wrong vs right. That's very black and white of you. I have black and white views and standards that I hold for myself. But I realize this world is full of grays. You cannot determine what the normal standard is for anyone but yourself. I am Christian, I have a standard that I hold myself against. I do not hold others to my standard. I believe in respecting people, and allowing them to live their one and only life how they want it.

That's where you and I are butting heads. You want to control how people live by dictating what you think is right and wrong as universal truth. I on the other hand respect people's freedom, and rights to choose what right and wrong is to them. As long as no one is harmed. To me it's common sense- treat others how you want to be treated. I don't want to be told how to live my life, I don't want to be told to live in a manner I disagree with. Therefore, I respect people's freedom to choose how they want to live.

I personally do not understand why people are so caught up in how others choose to live. I personally don't know why you care so much. People are so crazy focused on homosexuals, transgenders, the "gay agenda". Can't we all just respect each other's differences like adults and live our own life?
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post #95 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

Outside of dating, in what way do you treat men and women differently, assuming that they are behaving in the same way? How would that change if someones biological gender wasn't what their appearance suggested.

I don't really see what accommodation is needed.

Maybe a good question is what is your base source for "right and wrong". What standard do you use to judge?

My base source for right / wrong is trying to evaluate benefits vs harm done to others. Its a fuzzy guide but it is what I apply as well as I can figure it out. By that standard it seems that the harm caused by transgender people is very small, and acceptance makes their lives better.

To me its the same argument that causes me to accept gay marriage. Makes people happy, no significant harm.


A 60 year old who wants to be treated as a 12 year old is completely different. A 12 year old cannot support themselves, but lives at the expense of society (in the hope / expectation that they will grow to be a contributing adult). There is a cost to society of supporting that 60 year old who could otherwise be productive. OTOH if a 90 year old with dementia wants to believe that they are 12, I don't care, they are not productive anyway.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
You are conflating equality before the law with sameness. Just because people are equal in the eyes of the law doesn't mean they will be, or even should be treated the same by each other. Men and women aren't the same, so expecting them to treat each other the same just seems strange. And this is demonstrably true, to the point I don't even know why it is up for discussion.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the transgender interaction in public, and how we require people to react to it affects others than those afflicted. The argument for transgenders is not that they should be able to do what they want at home. It is that all of us must accommodate them and their delusion, and pretend they are truthful and right. By saying we should do so, you are directly arguing that we teach children there is nothing wrong with it. That's a far cry from tolerance. That's affirmation. That's participation.

If we were only talking about tolerance, this wouldn't be a discussion. They are tolerated. They are free to do as they please at home without interference legally. They already have those "rights" everyone is carrying on about. What you are arguing for is far more than tolerance, it is acceptance. It is not enough to say "they're wrong, but we will leave them alone" but rather, you are arguing, whether you realize it or not, for enforcement of a value system that states that they are indeed right--when they are objectively wrong.

Welcome to 1984. Where black is white, and the chocolate ration has been increased from 25 grams to 20 grams.

What doesn't hold up is that you pretend people are an island, in order to condone the behavior, meanwhile acknowledging that we are not islands, by demanding that we treat them as if they are [insert category of choice]. It's obvious that you recognize this on some level--even if unconsciously-- by your unwillingness to engage in the trans-age / trans species issues, which are directly related to, and a sub-sect of the greater transfolk movement.

If we must legally treat someone the way they "feel" then a 60 year old that feels like a 12 year old must be treated as such. Which complicates things if that 60 year old engages in what would generally be considered illicit behavior with another 12 year old. Further, do we say that the trans 12 year old can't legally sign a contract? Should they be put up for foster care? Should we enforce truancy laws on them?

Similar questions abound for transgender or transracial people. If they must be accommodated and affirmed, do they get scholarships for being "women" or [insert minority]. Do we need to let transwomen compete with real women in women's sports?

These aren't merely theoretical, these are real issues, with real life consequences. By not accommodating them, we don't harm them. By accommodating them, we don't help them, but we certainly do put the impressionable youth at risk for falling victim to the belief that mutilating their bodies will somehow make them feel good.
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post #96 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:17 PM
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Re: Gender

What's the real issue @Kivlor? Are you a closet homosexual or transgender? Were you raped by a man? Why do you care so much? Are you unemployed and a 40 year old virgin? I don't get it.

Take a deep breath...in...and out....

Relax. I can feel your energy. Your uptight, hypertensive, tightly wound. It's stressing me out. Relaxxxxxx. Life is great, it's amazing to be alive. You need to get off the Internet, take a nature walk. Masterbate, have sex. get a drink with your buddies, laugh, enjoy life.
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post #97 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:21 PM
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Re: Gender

These are very difficult ethical issues. Too many people feel they are simple.

This is at heart a question not only of what behavior each individual is privileged to engage in, but also whether society is authorized to punish the decision to engage in that behavior and whether third parties are obliged to accept or tolerate one's choice to engage in that behavior.

There are some things where there is broad public support that individuals are NOT privileged to engage in certain behavior like child molesting. The problem is that broad public support erodes quickly as we move to other behaviors. Outside self-defense, there is broad support that people are not free to engage in murder. But once assisted suicide comes into the picture, consensus fades. Some see abortion as murder. Some don't. We have not reached consensus on the extent to which society is obliged to accept or tolerate abortion 40 years after the Supreme Court said that each woman is privileged to choose to have one.

That is where gender identity is. Even if you accept that each individual is entitled to select their gender identity (which, like abortion, many individuals do NOT agree should be an individual's privilege to choose), many many practical decisions remains as to how far society must go to accept and accommodate that choice. It is silly to argue for consensus on the required extent of accommodation when we haven't reached consensus on whether an individual ought to have a right to choose their gender in the first place.

To me, the bigger problem is that our society has little tolerance for calm debate over these issues. Many people become dogmatic and insist not only that their view is superior but also that it is the only ethically or morally acceptable position, and everyone who disagrees with them is evil.

When you can see it coming, duck!
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post #98 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:30 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by ScrambledEggs View Post
I see your point but really disturbing stories like this seem to suggest that the nature of the delusion is related.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbiAHnjHlHg
Is this even real?

If so, just damn creepy.
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post #99 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:33 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
Outside of dating, in what way do you treat men and women differently, assuming that they are behaving in the same way? How would that change if someones biological gender wasn't what their appearance suggested.

I don't really see what accommodation is needed.

Maybe a good question is what is your base source for "right and wrong". What standard do you use to judge?

My base source for right / wrong is trying to evaluate benefits vs harm done to others. Its a fuzzy guide but it is what I apply as well as I can figure it out. By that standard it seems that the harm caused by transgender people is very small, and acceptance makes their lives better.

To me its the same argument that causes me to accept gay marriage. Makes people happy, no significant harm.


A 60 year old who wants to be treated as a 12 year old is completely different. A 12 year old cannot support themselves, but lives at the expense of society (in the hope / expectation that they will grow to be a contributing adult). There is a cost to society of supporting that 60 year old who could otherwise be productive. OTOH if a 90 year old with dementia wants to believe that they are 12, I don't care, they are not productive anyway.
If happiness is your judge... The imposition would be greater to put upon 99% of the population that they must accommodate the 1%, than to do the other. More unhappiness among the majority than the minority. If this is your method, I think you will find that majority rights should always supersede minority ones.

Makes far more people unhappy to have to deal with them, and teach their children this is good, than there are even total trans people in the country...

By your logic, shouldn't we have just banned gay marriage, as it was an imposition on ~50% of the country, but would only have benefited ~5%, so net happiness is decreased?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #100 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:41 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
What's the real issue @Kivlor? Are you a closet homosexual or transgender? Were you raped by a man? Why do you care so much? Are you unemployed and a 40 year old virgin? I don't get it.

Take a deep breath...in...and out....

Relax. I can feel your energy. Your uptight, hypertensive, tightly wound. It's stressing me out. Relaxxxxxx. Life is great, it's amazing to be alive. You need to get off the Internet, take a nature walk. Masterbate, have sex. get a drink with your buddies, laugh, enjoy life.
I'm actually laughing while I type these messages.

My deal is that I live in an objective reality. And it is, in my view, wrong ethically, morally, objectively, to force people to accommodate a lie. It is fraud and you want to force others to participate in it. So much for the "unless you're harming others" rhetoric eh?

What's wrong Katie? Are you a closet trans, hoping to force us all to accept you? Why bother caring about less than 1% of the population--who aren't being oppressed in any fashion--if you're not one? Why care that I accommodate them? Why be so worried that we support their self-mutilation if you're not one? Do you support mutilation in general? If you had a daughter who said "Mommy, I don't like my girl parts, I want them cut off" would you be jumping up and down with excitement at the thought?

You keep going to homosexuality. What does homosexuality have to do with this? Is that something special to you? Near and dear? Do you really think that someone who wants to have sex with people of the same gender is the same as someone who thinks that they'll only be happy when they start cutting off body parts?


Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #101 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:55 PM
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Re: Gender

I believe people should do what they want with the one life they have. That's it.
I don't like bullys. People who bully people into feeling bad about who they are or how they want to live... is extremely near and dear to my heart. Not to sound like a toddler but I want everyone to be happy and live a great life. People who make others feel bad about themselves is just plain mean. It's not nice. I personally don't understand why people want to do this.
I believe in respecting other people's choice. You believe "respecting" other people's choices means you agree with it. To me, whether or not I agree with something is irrelevant. I live how I want to live, I believe others should too.
When we start talking about harming others... then I take a strong stance and I don't tolerate it.
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post #102 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:56 PM
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Re: Gender

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
What's the real issue @Kivlor? Are you a closet homosexual or transgender? Were you raped by a man? Why do you care so much? Are you unemployed and a 40 year old virgin? I don't get it.

Take a deep breath...in...and out....

Relax. I can feel your energy. Your uptight, hypertensive, tightly wound. It's stressing me out. Relaxxxxxx. Life is great, it's amazing to be alive. You need to get off the Internet, take a nature walk. Masterbate, have sex. get a drink with your buddies, laugh, enjoy life.
You are either totally misreading his emotions or this is your way of ending the conversation. He has been non-emotional, level headed, and consistent in his arguments. I am not all together convinced, but I can't deny that he makes a powerful normative argument. I have never seen it so clearly articulated. That does not make for the last word in all this nor does it make him right, but it did not deserve this response either.

SE

Learning Stuff on TAM I should have picked up in High School
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post #103 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:57 PM
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Re: Gender

Now that we've disposed with the "maybe you're just a closet trans/homo/whatever" line you felt was so necessary and helpful to bring to a debate about the merits of behaviors and policies (it's not, it's a red herring) if you are interested in the why of my position, it is because I have judged it as rationally as possible, and I have come to my conclusion. I believe my conclusion is right, therefore I argue in favor of it. If I thought I was wrong, I wouldn't argue in favor it it. If was unsure, then I would just say "I don't know".

This is what happens when you encounter someone who has a firm stance on a subject Katie, they don't yield just because you disagree. Simply "Well, we just disagree" doesn't cut it either, because I think you are incorrect, and worse, ethically wrong on the subject. It is not a matter trans being "icky" or "disgusting" to me--like say brussels sprouts--for if it were merely a matter of taste, I would simply shake my head, say "Yuck!" and be done with it, and your affinity for it would be of no consequence.

I've laid out my position in detail throughout this thread. You jump back and forth, contradicting yourself regularly. What do you believe Katie, and why?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #104 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:57 PM
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Re: Gender

What is mutilation to you?
Is getting breast implants mutilation? A nose job? How about braces? What about tattoos and piercings? What about circumcision?

You those in these strong words to try to prove your point but it's not working. Mutilation is a strong word.
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post #105 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:02 PM
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Re: Gender

You and I are just going to disagree because what you think is wrong is wrong. And that's ok. I disagree with what you think is wrong obviously, but you can't have a debate with someone who thinks something is wrong, and the other person doesn't.

I've said it this entire time. I think as long as there is no harm, people are free to do as they please. I respect people's right to choose how they want to live their life.

Your argument is that you think it's morally wrong. Period.
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