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post #106 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:05 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
I believe people should do what they want with the one life they have. That's it.
I don't like bullys. People who bully people into feeling bad about who they are or how they want to live... is extremely near and dear to my heart. Not to sound like a toddler but I want everyone to be happy and live a great life. People who make others feel bad about themselves is just plain mean. It's not nice. I personally don't understand why people want to do this.
I believe in respecting other people's choice. You believe "respecting" other people's choices means you agree with it. To me, whether or not I agree with something is irrelevant. I live how I want to live, I believe others should too.
When we start talking about harming others... then I take a strong stance and I don't tolerate it.
But the trans movement demands to be affirmed. They insist that you and I, and the rest of the world not just accept them, but view them on their terms-- as natural, normal, and the same as a natal women. This is where the movement crosses from doing their own thing to altering the world and culture around them--which is all of our thing. I give them their place in the world but its not the same place as natal women and it never will be. Am I a terrible person? I don't think so.


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post #107 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:05 PM
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Re: Gender

I think I layed out what I think and why very clearly actually. What is your confusion?
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post #108 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:07 PM
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Gender

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Originally Posted by ScrambledEggs View Post
But the trans movement demands to be affirmed. They insist that you and I, and the rest of the world not just accept them, but view them on their terms-- as natural, normal, and the same as a natal women. This is where the movement crosses from doing their own thing to altering the world and culture around them--which is all of our thing. I give them their place in the world but its not the same place as natal women and it never will be. Am I a terrible person? I don't think so.


How are they doing this?
I don't think they are the same as a natural born women either.
Doesn't mean they can't use the same locker room as me.
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post #109 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:09 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
I think I layed out what I think and why very clearly actually. What is your confusion?
The confusion is your hysterical defense of the trans movement, and demands for them to be accepted, meanwhile, stating that your goal and beliefs are the exact opposite.

You aren't willing to leave other people alone, who simply want nothing to do with this behavior. We must submit. We must agree. We must conform.

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #110 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

I think I see some of the core of the disagreement. Taking a brief aside, how did gay marriage impose on 50% of the country. It meant that gay couples on average paid more taxes, received some new benefits, but overall probably a wash. What is the harm done to others by a gay couple being married? (honest question, I just don't see a downside). I understand that gay couples make some people uncomfortable, but why does it matter if they are married or not?

For trans people, I again see that some people are made uncomfortable, but is there harm done? Is it any different than people being uncomfortable when they see a mixed-race couple? Or when they see a naked black dude in locker room?

I do agree (and have mentioned before) that these issues become very tricky when applied to children. I am uneasy about all sorts of possible inappropriate parental influence on children, but at the same time I don't see an easy fix to that problem in general.


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If happiness is your judge... The imposition would be greater to put upon 99% of the population that they must accommodate the 1%, than to do the other. More unhappiness among the majority than the minority. If this is your method, I think you will find that majority rights should always supersede minority ones.

Makes far more people unhappy to have to deal with them, and teach their children this is good, than there are even total trans people in the country...

By your logic, shouldn't we have just banned gay marriage, as it was an imposition on ~50% of the country, but would only have benefited ~5%, so net happiness is decreased?
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post #111 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:13 PM
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Re: Gender

Explain to me how my goal and beliefs are the exact opposite?

You want nothing to do with this behavior? What behavior?
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post #112 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

This gets to a tricky issue of what people think and how they act.

I can't fault anyone for thoughts, only for actions. So if someone wants to privately think that trans people are mentally disturbed or that Jews are an inferior race, they are welcome to do so. OTOH I do not think it is OK do discriminate against people for their race, sexual orientation or in this case being trans.

So what is it that trans people want? I assume that they want acceptance. To me I view it the same way that I "accept" homosexuality. To be honest seeing two guys kiss grosses me out at a very visceral level. But, I also at a rational level have no objection to guys kissing, and have the best wishes for my gay friends. Similarly I find trans people to often be in the "uncanny valley" of seeing weird. But at the same time, I will wish them well because the negative reaction is my problem, not theirs.







Quote:
Originally Posted by ScrambledEggs View Post
But the trans movement demands to be affirmed. They insist that you and I, and the rest of the world not just accept them, but view them on their terms-- as natural, normal, and the same as a natal women. This is where the movement crosses from doing their own thing to altering the world and culture around them--which is all of our thing. I give them their place in the world but its not the same place as natal women and it never will be. Am I a terrible person? I don't think so.
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post #113 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:19 PM
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Re: Gender

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What is mutilation to you?
Is getting breast implants mutilation? A nose job? How about braces? What about tattoos and piercings? What about circumcision?

You those in these strong words to try to prove your point but it's not working. Mutilation is a strong word.
It's intentionally strong. What is mutilation to you?

Mutilation, to me, is the act of inflicting physical injury to the body in order to degrade function or appearance. I don't make up definitions, I try to use real ones. I don't redefine words to mean "tatoos". You aren't even arguing in good faith, because it bothers you so much to face off against someone willing to call a spade a spade. This is what I meant about you--and others with similar views--doing the relativism two-step.

I don't have a problem using strong words. How do you feel about female circumcision? Let's not call that Female genital mutilation. It might hurt someone's feelings.

ETA: I meant to answer your question regarding circumcision... outside of the rare medical necessity, from a rational perspective, is it not mutilation to take an infant boy's penis and cut off some of the skin? Does it bother you to call things as they are? Is it frightening to engage deep discussions in real terms? Why resist it? If you have strong thoughts about any of this, why hold back?

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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post #114 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:20 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
I've said it this entire time. I think as long as there is no harm, people are free to do as they please. I respect people's right to choose how they want to live their life.


How are they doing this?
I don't think they are the same as a natural born women either.

Then you too are heretical to the trans political movement. Let me be the first to welcome you to the resistance! (kidding)
Quote:
"Though “trans women are women” has become a trans rights rallying cry, Highwater writes, it primes trans women for failure, disappointment, and cognitive dissonance. She calls it a “vicious lie.”

“It’s a lie that sets us up to be triggered every time we are called he, or ‘guys’ or somebody dares to suggest that we have male biology,” she writes. “Even a cursory glance from a stranger can cut to our very core. The very foundations of our self-worth are fragile.”

From the perspective of the contemporary trans rights movement, this is close to blasphemy."
Gender critical trans women: The apostates of the trans rights movement.


The point is that the idea that trans women are true "women" is so ingrained into the trans political movement, it is newsworthy that there are trans women who are apostates from that idea.

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post #115 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:25 PM
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Re: Gender

I 100% agree with what you wrote @uhtred and you mirror my feelings exactly.
Whether or not you like it or agree with it is regardless of the point. Bc you know the point is, people have freedom of choice.

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post #116 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:28 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by katiecrna View Post
How are they doing this?
I don't think they are the same as a natural born women either.
Doesn't mean they can't use the same locker room as me.
Not exactly transgender but I wish one, the other, or both of this couple will start using the male locker and steam room at my gym.


If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.
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post #117 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:33 PM
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Re: Gender

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Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
It's intentionally strong. What is mutilation to you?

Mutilation, to me, is the act of inflicting physical injury to the body in order to degrade function or appearance. I don't make up definitions, I try to use real ones. I don't redefine words to mean "tatoos". You aren't even arguing in good faith, because it bothers you so much to face off against someone willing to call a spade a spade. This is what I meant about you--and others with similar views--doing the relativism two-step.

I don't have a problem using strong words. How do you feel about female circumcision? Let's not call that Female genital mutilation. It might hurt someone's feelings.

ETA: I meant to answer your question regarding circumcision... outside of the rare medical necessity, from a rational perspective, is it not mutilation to take an infant boy's penis and cut off some of the skin? Does it bother you to call things as they are? Is it frightening to engage deep discussions in real terms? Why resist it? If you have strong thoughts about any of this, why hold back?


Relaxxxxxxx

What one thinks Mutilation is may be different than another. Some people think circumcision is mutilation, some don't. Some think breast implants are, some don't. Female circumcision is a hot topic and I won't discuss it here.

The problem is you think you are calling it like it is, but you aren't. Your calling it how you think it is. And that's why this conversation is pointless. Your black and white. You think what you believe is a universal truth to all.
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post #118 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:35 PM
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Re: Gender

@Kivlor you didn't answer my question.
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post #119 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Gender

Its a bit off topic, but I do not like the idea of modification of children's bodies through circumcision.

I think adults have the right to modify their own bodies, but I also think it is usually a bad idea for them to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kivlor View Post
It's intentionally strong. What is mutilation to you?

Mutilation, to me, is the act of inflicting physical injury to the body in order to degrade function or appearance. I don't make up definitions, I try to use real ones. I don't redefine words to mean "tatoos". You aren't even arguing in good faith, because it bothers you so much to face off against someone willing to call a spade a spade. This is what I meant about you--and others with similar views--doing the relativism two-step.

I don't have a problem using strong words. How do you feel about female circumcision? Let's not call that Female genital mutilation. It might hurt someone's feelings.

ETA: I meant to answer your question regarding circumcision... outside of the rare medical necessity, from a rational perspective, is it not mutilation to take an infant boy's penis and cut off some of the skin? Does it bother you to call things as they are? Is it frightening to engage deep discussions in real terms? Why resist it? If you have strong thoughts about any of this, why hold back?
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post #120 of 242 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:56 PM
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Re: Gender

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I think I see some of the core of the disagreement. Taking a brief aside, how did gay marriage impose on 50% of the country. It meant that gay couples on average paid more taxes, received some new benefits, but overall probably a wash. What is the harm done to others by a gay couple being married? (honest question, I just don't see a downside). I understand that gay couples make some people uncomfortable, but why does it matter if they are married or not?

For trans people, I again see that some people are made uncomfortable, but is there harm done? Is it any different than people being uncomfortable when they see a mixed-race couple? Or when they see a naked black dude in locker room?

I do agree (and have mentioned before) that these issues become very tricky when applied to children. I am uneasy about all sorts of possible inappropriate parental influence on children, but at the same time I don't see an easy fix to that problem in general.
It imposed upon the country that they must accept and approve of gay marriage. (This was done not via legislation, but through courts. The consequences of this will be very painful as we go forward, eg look at the "cake baking" debate which shouldn't even be going on)

Now, despite polls, voting records show that even in California--LGBTQTTIP#? capital of the country--52% of Californians voted to ban it. The rest of the country is a little more right-leaning than Cali, and so I think it's a pretty safe bet to say ~50% are opposed to it.

Not that it matters, but I was actually pro gay marriage, or at least some sort of civil union equivalent. But the reality is that most voters are not, and now it's not enough that it be legal, but if you don't want to participate in the ceremony, we can legally force you to, because reasons. We've moved far past the debate of whether or not gays should be allowed to marry or at least have the same property rights/protections afforded to married couples, and gone to something that I would wager most gays actually were opposed to (I don't know any who supported the Obergefell decision, but I'm in a deep red state, and don't know many of them)

To link this back to the trans issue, it is an imposition on the majority, if we are going to demand not that they tolerate trans people--something most of us can agree on--but that they affirm them. It violates their rights as individuals, if you believe in rights. There is no way to separate the children issue either. It's already being taught in schools. So you have a situation where 1% of the population--by definition deviant--has control over what the children of the 99% are being taught, which is a ridiculous thought.

The fact that someone doesn't want to have sex with a man, no matter how much he calls himself a woman, and doesn't want anything to do with someone who would behave this way is now being defined as bigotry and equivocated with racists who were/are opposed to mixed race couples...

I want to take a stab at the entire dichotomy we're dancing around here... If being trans is a "lifestyle" like everyone claims homosexuality is today, then we can judge them (and homosexuals) without knowing them, because it is a behavior, and so neither is then analogous to "mixed race couples" or "racism" because racism is judging a person based on physical attributes, rather than behavior, but both of these are a behavior... If it is by birth, then it is still not analogous to mixed race couples, because again, someone wouldn't even know to judge you by it unless you act upon it, so it is therefore more analogous to pedophilia or depression which you wouldn't know someone suffered from unless they told you or acted upon it...

The entire discussion is framed poorly by the trans proponents, no matter how you look at it. They want to ignore any rational discussion, and trade such analysis for mere discussions of feelings and cries of "BIGOT!!"

Do you hear the people sing / Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people / Who are climbing to the light.
For the wretched of the earth / There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end / And the sun will rise...
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